Re: Judges
 

Mike did you build your 69 bird somewhat after the mule you talked about, or is that actually it?

Another pic courtesy of Andy:

http://www.azalea.net/~steved/71white.jpg

Re: Judges
 

I was just going through my last mag that Andy sent and wow, coverage on the Pure Stock Drags 99. Some VERY nice cars and impressive times!!! Loved to see Paul Glasgo's Magnum 400 cranking some 12's. And then his brother does a low 13 in a 455HO, right in line with this thread I'd say.

I too don't think there is a need to compare these drags to cars off the assembly line in 1969, but the drags get top rating with me. And I cheer all that do it..

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Judges
 

If you will think back to those early days in the late 60's, that is why Joel Rosen the owner of Motion was so succesful, because he had a dyno at his disposal and very few back then did. With one he could ferret out how to do the little things to go fast.

He also got a lot of help from those in the right places at the factory. It has taken a few years but everybody has just caught up with the top guns of the past. Now days you can find a dyno in just about every town of any size.

I don't know about you but I have seen plenty of guys over the years that out "Tricked" themselves with add on speed equiptment that they had no way to properly tune and set up right.

Blueprinting a stock motor was just not done back then. It has taken all these years for the technogly to come as far forward as it has. Remember a dual line Holly was something new and most guys had been using AFB's, single line Hollys or Rochester Q-jet carbs.

Et's are bound to keep droping with the interest there is in it and the lack of new cars to interest guys of our era.

Nothing wrong with the Ricer's that are going as fast and faster than hell these days. I still miss my '85 CRX si that I used to suprise some late model muscle cars with.


Pantera

Re: Judges
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wasn't ragging on any of the Pure Stock Certified guys, a lot of work went into those cars. I said that the way the cars run TODAY do not reflect how they ran back THEN.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then why didn't ya say so! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif Seriously, you're absolutely right...the quicker cars aren't indicative of what I'd call "showroom stock". Now, I did take our Camaro, build the engine as Chevrolet did back in '69 (10.2:1 compression), and with only a set of spring clamps it went 12.79@108. But that's another story for another day...

I think tuning is a lost art, and has been for some time...I mean, most people take the easy way out and throw on a set of headers and a big carb on their car, and pick up 5 tenths...what they don't know is that they could play with the jetting/timing and all the other tuning stuff and very possibly make up that 5 tenths, without the headers. Now, I'm not saying headers aren't ultimately gonna make more power, but the potential these old sleds have from the factory is there, "if" you can get it out.

As for tearing down the short block, I often wonder too, but short of an oil pan with an inspection cover, I guess we'll have to take their word for it. And weight..oh, don't get me started on weight! Pete currently has a ZL-1 engine in his COPO car, thus he saved 200+ pounds...but like you said, if I could shed some pounds, I'd be in the hunt. But I really hate to do that to a 30,000 mile original car!

Re: Judges
 

This is off the subject but I'll ask.Do you think Pontiac will come out with a restro look for the new GTO down the road?

Re: Judges
 

Some guys were talking over in Classical Pontiac about the retro Camaro that is being toyed at GM, they all agreed that it looked awesome. And they also all agreed that GM would never produced something everyone liked.

I agree with both.

Re: Judges
 

Well it would be nice to see a restro GTO with the Judge option in 3-5yrs.I would buy one.

Re: Judges
 

Why 3 to 5 years, now!!!!

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Judges
 

Your right now would be good but realistically no.My reasoning is because with the new restro style of the new mustang,the new mustang looks like the 1965 mustang fastback as far as style is concerned so it took 40yrs for the mustang to look light the old style.The GTO came out as a 1964 year model and lastest to 1974.Then in 2004 40yrs since the first GTO's hit the streets the GTO is out again NO RESTO STYLE at all so I'm guessing 3-5yrs before pontiac gos to the old style again.

Re: Judges
 

Last night they rebroadcast "The Last Ride" on NBC and they had a commercial for the '05. I'm not happy with the new GTO as far as retro styling goes - since there IS none, but I have to admit that steps are being taken in the right direction.
The hood scoops are totally brazen and well-designed, the split rear exhausts and bigger rear spoiler are great as well.

The 400HP engine is nothing to sneeze at, while 4 ft & rr bucket seats look fantastic!

If the trend continues we may see a pretty nice-looking GTO by '07!

Mac

Re: Judges
 

I'm glad that Pontiac came out with the GTO again it looks like a Grand Am or Grand Prix.The style needs to change soon because I dont think the sales will be very high.I've soon the 05 GTO I think its just a dressed up 04 with more HP.

Re: Judges
 

In the early 90's a GTOAA member interviewed an assembly line worker that had actually built GTO's, I'm going to start dropping stuff from that interview.

Re: Judges
 

Its rare to hear from a person that actually put the GTO's together on the line it'll be interesting to see what information this person has about the GTO's.

Re: Judges
 

It's over on the other thread..... IV/V continuation.

I made a boo boo posting that in this thread.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif

Re: Judges
 

No problem I'll check it out thanks.

Re: Judges
 

I hope all of you got what you wanted for X-MAS.I'm going to be gone until new years you all have a good new years and drive safe.

Re: Judges
 

Was there any RAV's put into Judges?If so how many?I know that the RAV was a dealer thing it was'nt factory but does anybody know how many were put into Judges?

Re: Judges
 

NO PHS doc. RA V cars.Dealer or self installed engines.

Re: Judges
 

So a 69 GTO or Judge with a dealer install RAV would be like a 69 YENKO,its not a factory car but its worth alot of money.

Re: Judges
 

I would have to say no since the Yenko had the 427 in it from the factory depending on the year. Unless you have original dealer documentation to authenticate it this would be an incorrect conversion to a GTO or Judge. I believe the GTOAA rule book states that in the case of conversions such as these unless there is documentation to support it must then be entered in the modified class or points deductions will occur. I guess to make along story short unless I had dealer docs I would not put a RA V between the fenders of any Judge I owned. I would love to own one of those engines but I have always been a purist when it comes to my cars and want them exactly as they left the factory. JMO

Happy New Year https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Re: Judges
 

From what I understand correct me if I'm wrong:the 427 cars that came from berger,motion,yenko,nickey ect. were a dealer install.If you wanted a 427 camaro,nova or chevelle you had to go to one of these dealerships to make that happen,it was'nt factory.The COPO cars are factory 427's.So with the RAV I would put it with the berger,yenko,motion,nickey cars as a dealer install car.

Re: Judges
 

DaJudge,when I stumbled onto this website I was impressed with all the information available to me.I have check out all the old threads and have found out that there are alot of people wanting to know how many Judges were a certain color.I noticed that you are one of those people well I have a friend that lives in Arizona and his dad worked for GM from 1964-1979,he was on the line in the pontiac plant.His dad had permission to keep track of the Judges coming through the line,he wrote the year and exter. color only(dont ask me why he did'nt keep more info per car).Ever since I stumbled onto this site I wanted to give out this information.I called my friend last week and told him about the site:His dad recently past away so the only person that has any clue about the color breakdown for Judges is his son.He has given me color breakdowns for the HT's and verts for the 69-70-71 Judges.I have permission from him to give out this information.The deal between my friend and I was that if he gives me this information I will not give out his familys name or any other information and I told him that I would honor that.He also said that his dad told him that the numbers aren't 100% correct and that there around 80-82% correct.I will post the numbers on this thread tonight.

Re: Judges
 

Man that is cruel to make everybody wait.... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif


Oh well this is a good time to wish everyone a

----Happy New year ...!!!----- https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Re: Judges
 

I'll start with the 69 Judges tonight then I'll post the 70-71 numbers tomorrow.

69 Judge HT's

Carousel Red-5603
Liberty Blue-411
Verdoro Green-277
Midnight Green-220
Antique Gold-44
Matador Red-36
Starlight Black-29
Palladium Silver-22
Limelight Green-18
Forrest Green-15
Windward Blue-12
Cameo White-10
Expresso Brown-8
Warwick Blue-7
Mayfair Maize-3
Goldenrod Yellow-3
Crystal Turquoise-2
Butternut Yellow-2
Champaigne-1
Auque Marine Blue-1
Daytona Yellow-1

Re: Judges
 

69 Judge verts

Carousel Red-64
Matador Red-10
Liberty Blue-7
Starlight Black-5
Limelight Green-5
Verdoro Green-4
Palladium Silver-4
Butternut Yellow-3
Cameo White-3
Expresso Brown-2
Crystal Turquoise-1

Re: Judges
 

[ QUOTE ]
From what I understand correct me if I'm wrong:the 427 cars that came from berger,motion,yenko,nickey ect. were a dealer install.If you wanted a 427 camaro,nova or chevelle you had to go to one of these dealerships to make that happen,it was'nt factory.The COPO cars are factory 427's.So with the RAV I would put it with the berger,yenko,motion,nickey cars as a dealer install car.

[/ QUOTE ]

No expert, here, but pretty sure '69 Yenkos, aside from the Nova, were factory equipped (COPO's w/decals?).

Though would put a RAV installed by Royal, for example, in a category w/Nickey, Baldwin-Motion, Mr. Norms, pre '69 Yenko, and so forth.

Re: Judges
 

Jeff

Can you give any background on what plant/shift kinda stuff? Or was he taking talleys in corporate office? Cool stuff non the less, would love to have seen a Champaigne Judge sitting new in a showroom in 69!!!!

Re: Judges
 

I did'nt ask him about what plant or shift his dad work at.I talk to his dad afew years ago and that was when I found out he had this info on the colors of course he would'nt show me that info at the time he was very secretive about it.Just by talking to him he was very proud of the colors he had because he new no one else had this information.He always lock it up in a fire proof safe and to this day his son keeps it lock up in the safe.His dad mentioned that he would tally up the numbers every 6mo. untell he had all the Judges acounted for.He also said by recording the colors this way that there were probably some Judges that sliped through his fingers thats why he never claimed the numbers to be 100%.

Re: Judges
 

70 Judge HT

Polar White-853
Orbit Orange-575
Atoll Blue-486
Cardinal Red-389
Palladium Silver-356
Granda Gold-276
Pepper Green-258
Bermuda Blue-131
Starlight Black-125
Polar White Black Spoiler-51
Serria Yellow-46
Palisade Green-28
Baja Gold-26
Palamino Copper-18
Burgandy-7
Daytona Yellow-2
Mint Turquoise-2

Re: Judges
 

70 Judge verts

Polar White-39
Orbit Orange-36
Cardinal Red-20
Starlight Black-15
Atoll Blue-12
Pepper Green-11
Bermuda Blue-9
Granda Gold-7
Palladium Silver-6
Serria Yellow-6
Palisade Green-3
Palamino Copper-2
Daytona Yellow-1
Burgandy-1

Re: Judges
 

71 Judge HT

Lucerne Blue-109
Laurentain Green-88
Cardinal Red-45
Cameo White-29
Starlight Black-20
Tropical Lime-15
Cameo White Black Spoiler-15
Castillian Bronze-13
Canyon Copper-11
Aztec Gold-5
Limekist Green-3
Nordic Silver-3
Quezal Gold-1

Re: Judges
 

Now you're getting ready to post one that is curious to me; since we already know (99% sure) what the 71 Conv colors were, wonder what he has to say about them?

Re: Judges
 

71 Judge verts

Cameo White-3
Laurentain Green-3
Cardinal Red-2
Tropical Lime-1
Castillian Bronze-1
Lucerne Blue-1
Aztec Gold-1
Canyon Copper-1
Quezel Gold-1
Starlight Black-1
Special Order Green-1
Special Order White-1

Re: Judges
 

Does this mean he saw all 17 being built? I didn't know they were all done at one plant, but that's very possible.

Re: Judges
 

Here's what Dajudge posted for comparison:

[ QUOTE ]
Exterior, Interior, Top, Trans
1.Cameo White, Ivory, white, Auto
2.Cameo White, Ivory, white, Auto
3.Quezal Gold, black, black, 4 speed
4.Cameo white, black, black, Auto
5.Starlight blk, sienna, white, Auto
6.Aztec Gold, ivory, white, 4 speed
7.Special paint, ivory, white, Auto
8.Laurentian green, ivory, white, Auto
9.Tropical lime, black, white, Auto
10.Cardinal red, black, white, Auto
11.Cardinal Red, black, black, 4 spd
12.Lucerne Blue, blue, white, Auto
13.Castillian Bronze, Sienna, Sandlewood, Auto
14.Laurentian Green, black, black, Auto
15.Tropical Lime, black, black, Auto
16.Canyon Copper, Sienna, Sandlewood, Auto
17.Aztec Gold, Sienna, Sandlewood, Auto


[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Judges
 

I'm greatful that my friend decided to give me this information and for me to give it to other also.For three years I've been biting at the bit trying to get this information from him and know its happened.The numbers aren't 100% but its better than nothing and I hope this resolves alot of questions.

Re: Judges
 

Dont ask me how he got this information because I dont know.I know for sure that he would talley the numbers every 6mo.His dad didn't tell his son in detail on how he gathered this information up.If you think about it there were other plants.I dont know if he had permission to get into the records or any other information that would be stored.

Re: Judges
 

I don't know either, if he worked at corporate he might have access to all.

Do the other years and type tally close to the production figures generally accepted as correct?

Re: Judges
 

I dont understand your question.

Re: Judges
 

All I can tell you is that the numbers that I posted are 80-82% correct and this is from my friends dads mouth.People can look at these numbers and agree with it or disagree.