Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Website needs a serious update. I dont have time. All I can say is it looks like black gelcoat or sealer may have been on it. I dont have it stripped yet, was doing it last to make sure the paint was right on it.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I'm not positive, but I thought all the white Judges came with the black painted spoiler as with the pic Mike just posted. And I remembered seeing the old pics with the spoiler white under the stripes. Any 70 experts out there that know for sure on this?

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I dont think so, I believe they were body color. I just looked again and it is gray under the paint. Black was some of the sealer from the nuts. I scraped several small spots and that was it just white on the gray.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

The black spoiler was an option only on white cars and was ordered on around 51 of them. It was also available in 1971.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Do you know if the hood tachs were ever optioned black? Or was that part of the option with the spoiler?

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I was thinking as I wrote that last question, I should go back and see if you can tell in the pic Mike posted. And it does appear to be white, but my eyesight has been fading in the last few years. I could be wrong.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Hood scoop boots are black on ALL 1970 Judges, and the spoiler was optional. Tach, if ordered (there still was the in-dash tach), was bodycolor.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Back to the Tunnel Port topic... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img]

Greetings fellow Gearheads! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif[/img] My name is Bill Schultz, and I have owned the 1969 Royal Bobcat GTO since 1979. After the Royal GTOís restoration in the mid 80ís, I have spent a great deal of time and energy researching Tunnel Port engines and their history. After reading the posts concerning RAM AIR V GTOís delivered to Knafel Pontiac, I would like to share the following information that you may find very helpful in regards to this matter:

1) The closest thing to a ìrealî RAM AIR V factory GTO would have to be the turquoise & white Royal Bobcat GTO. This car, actually a RAM AIR IV car, had a PMD Engineering dyno RAM AIR V installed by Royal and tested for Pontiac. This car was the earliest known GTO to use a RA V, and no one was allowed to open the engine up for inspection. The motor was returned to engineering after testing.

2) My factory paper work has an ìEngineering Developmentî notation on it. I would assume any GTO with something as extreme as an engine substitution by Pontiac should have a similar notation. The ìmemoî data on the invoices could refer to anything such as a special option addition, a stripe or paint upgrade, special delivery fees, or added components put in the trunk. Oddly enough, the dealer cost ($76.00) and the retail price ($105.32) of these particular ìspecial equipmentî features reflect the exact cost of a couple of available options on the ë70 GTO at that time.

3) The exhaust situation would prove to be very difficult. The Royal GTO served as the initial template for ìAî body Tunnel Port headers. Taken to JR Headers in Hillsdale, Michigan, they created the first tubular headers offered. These were fender-well units requiring the inner fender to be opened up. Initially these were the only units available in late 1969 & early 1970. Are these the headers on these '70 Judges? Additionally, with few actual exhaust manifolds available and no head pipes ever made, where would the exhaust have come from? It is doubtful Engineering would have made an exhaust, let alone several for multiple cars. I doubt Engineering would have installed headers, though Knafel could have. The warranty and liability ramifications of such a vehicle change for a retail customer would have been huge! The ì$105.32î charge shown on the invoice for these cars could not logically have been for such a large feat as substituting a very expensive motor, making an exhaust, and dealing with the liability issues of the time.

4) Although I do not know Mr. Knafel personally, and I do respect some of the fine racing accomplishments by his dealer, I have been told through the years by other Pontiac authorities, magazine writers, and fellow rival dealership personnel that some of the stories and recollections of his may be slightly exaggerated. I do not know this myself, but if you have dozens of people giving you information, and one person contradicts that information, you typically would have to go with the masses. In my discussions with PMD Engineering staff, press people, dealer personnel and others such as Jim Mattison of PHS, no one has even entertained the thought of Factory RA V GTOís.

In conclusion, based on the above information, I can see nothing to indicate the possibility of ìFactoryî RA V Judges. It is not up to anyone to prove that Pontiac ìdid notî put Tunnel Ports in from the factory, rather it is up to those who believe they did to prove it. I have seen no evidence of this at all, so my thoughts have to go with the real world facts at this point. I deal with concrete facts, and there are none in this case.

Now...letís hear from all the folks who have ìfactoryî RAM AIR VI Tunnel Ports in their cars!!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img]

Bill [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

This was before my time, but didn't Lilly Tomlin say somethin' like, "And that's the truthhhhhhh!"? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Bill
Will you please post your ìEngineering Developmentî document?
Steve

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

[ QUOTE ]
we almost never ran across troublesome Pontiacs on the street.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Many,many were blown up. John Sawruk said that they had storage buildings full of blown up RAIV's. That is why there are so few original cars left

[/ QUOTE ]

The history of Pontiac street cars !!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img][img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bill
Will you please post your ìEngineering Developmentî document?
Steve

[/ QUOTE ]

Steve,

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif[/img] I am sorry, but I'm not interested in posting any of my personal paperwork on the internet. The topic is in regards to Factory Ram Air V 1970 Judges [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]. I still have seen no proof of their existance. Until such proof is provided, I will continue to believe that there are no Factory Ram Air Tunnel Ports.

Bill [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Bill

What a shame. Until you can back up your claim with the document, I have to consider it unreliable. This would be a very interesting piece if it does exist, but you render it as hearsay without the document post.

Steve

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

And by the way, after last nights phone conversations from this forum, let me just post my phone number in here so you don't have to get it from my website. That will save you a couple of clicks and we can talk sooner. If there is anyone left that wants to talk on the phone, I ain't skeerd.

918-260-0151

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

it sounds like you might be a little afraid of a couple of cars taking the attention away from your car. (there is too much jealousy involved with these cars, which is a total shame) and are you suggesting that the special equipment might be variable ratio power steering? finally, if you are going to say that these two cars are just based on unsupported evidence and then you bring up your evidence and wont show it, what is the difference? i think (based on knafels statements, others statements who were around back then and proven history) there is truth to these cars and it will eventually come out. surely someone at gm is reading these posts and has the power to get their hands on the engineering logs. if so why wont you do the musclecar hobby a favor and produce them.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Mr Muscle [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Oh and Bill

For a stranger and second time to post, you sure did figure out how to use the tools very fast. Emotes, quotes, I'm impressed!!!!

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I find Billy Bobcats post very informative and believable. I don't blame him for not wanting to post his documents on the Net as then everyone will have a Copy and can start making their own Documents for their car. I had posted documents on my old Motion car and I probably shouldn't have as it is now that much easier for someone to copy. I have had a Guy on the Net try to sell me a Camaro and the pic he sends me is a pic of my cars in front of my House. It was a pic he had downloaded off the net. I recommend that info be shared Privately if need be. Thanks for the info Billy.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Good point Charley...although PHS is there for the Pontiac guys it still would not be wise to post that stuff...Charley I thought I would show you a pic of a car I used to own taken in my driveway

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

[ QUOTE ]
I find Billy Bobcats post very informative and believable. I don't blame him for not wanting to post his documents on the Net as then everyone will have a Copy and can start making their own Documents for their car. I had posted documents on my old Motion car and I probably shouldn't have as it is now that much easier for someone to copy. I have had a Guy on the Net try to sell me a Camaro and the pic he sends me is a pic of my cars in front of my House. It was a pic he had downloaded off the net. I recommend that info be shared Privately if need be. Thanks for the info Billy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Charley,

Thanks for the kind words [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img] I am happy that someone understands the need for confidentiality. It is a concern of mine that someone could copy my documents, or use my information to forge their own. Many people in our hobby know myself as well as my cars, and know my honesty and integrity. My initial post was merely to offer constructive information, and to state my opinion.

Thanks again! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

Bill [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I am new to this sight, but have read through all the 1970 gto judge ram air IV postings after I received a call today from sixtiesmuscle. Mike informed me that my name and car had entered the postings. I am the Green who owns the Knafel Pontiac 1966 GTO. I have done a great deal of research on the car and Knafel Pontiac. In the process, I have spoken frequently with Bill and John Knafel, and to a lesser extent Arlen Vanke and Larry "Doc" Dixon. Let me try to clear up some of the issues that have been raised about Mr. Knafel and his racing team.

1. I have rarely found evidence to dispute what I have been told by Mr. Knafel. He loves to talk about his accomplishments and he frequently tells his stories in a manner that can be taken more than one way. A case in point. I have heard Mr. Knafel's version of the "Mystery Tornado" a 64 blown 421 GTO driven by Arnie Beswick story, and I have heard Arnie's version. They both agree on most of the facts, but have their own versions of how things actually happened. What I am saying is that after nearly 40 years it is hard to keep the facts straight!

2. Knafel did have a performance package for Pontiacs called the "Tin Indian" kit. It was very similiar to the Royal Bobcat Kit, but not marketed nearly as well.

3. I do not understand why Mr. Knafel now insists that the 63 Tempest, owned by Tim Benko, is not "Running Bear". He originally agreed that it is and Arlen Vanke has confirmed that it is, so I disagree with Mr. Knafel on this issue.

4. There is no letter from the Knafels to me concerning any sort of a commission should I decide to sell the car. However, I have received phone calls from both John and Bill Knafel concerning the issue.

5. Concerning Knafel against Royal, I have not found evidence that a Royal car ever won a race against a Knafel car. If you read the article in Super Stock magazine on the 1966 NHRA Springnationals at Bristol, TN, both the 66 "Tin Indian" GTO and the Royal "GeeTO Tiger" were there. The "Tin Indian" left as the stock eliminator. I asked Milt Shornack what happened, and he said that he had transmission problems and wasn't able to run against the "Tin Indian". Arlen Vanke said that Shornack made it a point to never stage against him. The fact is that the cars never ran against each other, but the drivers have different views on what happened. The Knafel car won C/stock against 19 other cars (including the "GeeTO Tiger") and then won Jr. Stock Eliminator against 12 other cars.

Hopefully, I have shed some light on Knafel Pontiac and Mr. Knafel.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Mr Green

Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!

Steve Hoog

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Welcome Merle, and, thanks for the info.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

who is it that keeps telling people his stories are exaggerated? i say it is the same person who is going around promoting himself as the father of the gto. if you read his book we can assume that if it had not been for him, we would still be driving worthless boring cars. from all brands. now is the time for everyone to start doing their homework on reality and it did not take me very long at all to see that knafel was the real performer in the performance field. royal has always gotten all the attention because of the bobcat and being there in motorcity, but facts are knafel was the king of pontiac.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

mrmuscle,I dont believe it was the dealership but the builders and drivers that made the diff.Arlin and Arnie were the best on the east coast.On the left coast in the early 60s you had Hayden Proffit,Jess Tyree,Loyd and Carol Cox and others I cant remember.I think Anderson pontiac was VERY luck to have the quality racers in their stable.Tom

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

its called a team. it was his team and they were the best obviously. but it is really funny how that the guys telling history are leaving the main part out of it. which if reality was known as to the importance and the tight friendships in business dealings of this guy, it would not surprise you to think that engineering would back door cars for him to drag race.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I'm personally not too well informed on GTO's or Pontiacs in general for that matter...but here is a link to a very interesting GTO here in my hometown. (Scroll about half way down the page)
http://www.contes.com/ccvmore.htm
This GTO thread has my head spinning...but sure makes for some entertaining reading [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]
Maybe something in the link can add some "fuel" to someones fire!

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

that is a cool link and article. dont get me wrong, i am not trying to knock wangers off of his pedestal, i am merely stating a true fact that he never talks about any of the competition. i have heard him speak and he speaks like there was never anyone around that could touch anything he did or was associated with. i also have heard him state that you wouldnt believe what all went on behind closed doors, but it always involved him only. there is too much documeted proof that knafel had alot of dealings with engineering and tested their items. records document the fact that royals team couldnt hold a candle to knafels.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

"go to knafels website that steved posted and look at the magnum 4oo detail sheet and it even says that they will put a ra v in one for you. there was also a picture of a ra 5 engine on a stand in their dealership in the goatfinder a while back."...Mr Muscle..Don't you think that maybe it would be easier for Engineering and less risk to just send a Crate RAV to Knafel and let them install it ? It sounds like they were very good at it.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

that very well could be. i dont have the answer and i am not going to say i guarantee anything like so many have. (other than never say never). pontiac never felt in necessary to consult with me on anything. (hard to believe i know lol). i am basing my belief of the cars being real on the fact that mr knafel stated this back around 1998 and this was before the cars had surfaced. he had even detailed what the purpose of both cars was. the silver car surfaced a year later and then nobody knew anything about the white/blue car until sixtiesmuscle posted that his had the same items on the phs sheet as the silver car and all of a sudden it was living proof of what mr knafel had said. i do know that if these had been cars from royal, jim wangers would have been campaigning from coast to coast that they were the real deal even without any engineering logs.

no matter if proof is ever made on these, this discussion has at least brought a lot of truth and history into the public eye that might not have ever happened.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I am starting to think that this thread is all about how high the post count can get. It started out cool but I think that we get the point by now.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

why complain, just go and read another discussion. if enough publicity is shed on this someone with the power will provide the documentation or will vouch for mr knafel on his ability to get what he wanted out of engineering. what if we had quit this on page 3 or 4? the fact of the white/blue car of sixtiesmuscle would have never surfaced and then we would not have had the information from steved brought to light and the other posts like mr greens. (which i would like to her more about your research please ) [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I wasnt going to post again on this subject,but i have to say that STEVED AND MRMUSCLE are completly out of line to try and disclaim what BILL SHULTZ said in his post! I dont know him,but i know he owns probably the best and most documented RAV GTO IN THE WORLD! PERIOD!! To say his info is unreliable because the man wont show you his docs on the car is sad! now thats a shame! I dont know who these guys are, or what cars they own, IF ANY, but it sounds like they are jealous. I dont care if they find out knafel put an all aluminum RAVIII in that silver judge,It will never be worth half of that crystal turquiose car!! As for mikes 70 TIN INDIAN, that car is KILLER! I cant wait to see a finished product.I wish i would have found it!,but i dont believe its the car from the promotional pic. I think the build date on your car is november or december,and you would think that pic is one of the first 70 judges off the line,if not the first,which would be an august car. plus that car was a black winger which came with black stripes to match.I believe the judge decal on your decklid is blue and didnt the black wing cars have WT7 on the build sheet? it was also the same car in the 2page ad with the car crossing the street,but who knows if it was the car that would be the iceing on the cake! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif[/img] Back to the judge; I have a great idea! why dont we find all the assembly line workers that put the car together on that cold day in 69 and maybe just maybe they will know! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

don, you are the one who is way off the beat. i dont think the assembly line workers could shed any light on the subject other than they built a couple of ra 4 cars. it is the engineering "hobby shop" that would have done the swap. just like the early sd cars. as for the value of the silver car, i guarantee you that it is totally irrelevant to gary what it is worth. he has made that clear on many of his super rare cars. he likes them and if they are worth a million or worth 50 cents he wont sell them. if you dont believe it, call him up and offer him a hundred grand for his 70 ra 4 t/a he has had since he was a kid. he would laugh at you. why dont you do us all a favor and dont post anymore. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Don

I consider myself a savoy computer person, it took me two or three post before I got the hang of the basic tools and workings in here. Not to mention I was so absorbed in putting up my voice, the tool bar was the last thing I was worried about. Now unless this Billybob is a seasoned veteran in your forum and just created a new ID just for the disscussion, I'm a little confused how he got so good so fast.

And if you want to know what cars I have, where I live, where I work, what my dogs name is... all of that information and more is on my web page linked in my profile.

It is not unreasonable for me to ask to see a document in a forum where there is no accountability for the creation of an ID.

And most important to your concerns, I thought his statement was very interesting and thought seeing the document would be benifical. And sorry, I didn't want to copy it and make a forgery of it.

Charley said it all so well, if your not comfortable about doing it in here.. do it in private. Guess what, Billybob did not do that either.

Steve

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

HI I would say it would be a 25/30k car, but if a concourse car more. <font color="yellow"> </font>

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

HI I know a friend of mine has almost the same car in the wisc. area. I would say buy it if you can. I say 25/30 if decent restorable car. But, they are really going up These cars have really taken off lately, saw a green one on e-bay for 42k, fully restored. they made 325 of these RAIV judges.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I THINK I WILL POST ANYTIME I WANT JOCKO! I DONT KNOW WHAT YOU INVEST IN BUT I THINK YOU SHOULD INVEST IN A PERSONALITY! I THINK BOTH OF YOU GUYS DONT HAVE A CLUE ABOUT GTO'S [LIKE ASKING IF A HOOD TACH EVER CAME BLACK] YOUR KIDDING RIGHT? I LOOKED AT STEVED'S WEB PAGE,IM NOT IMPRESSED! NOR AM I WITH YOU OR THAT JUDGE! I DONT GIVE A RATS ASS HOW MUCH HE WOULD TAKE FOR HIS TRANS AM. SO GO AND KISS HIS ASS SOME MORE AND MAYBE HE WILL LEAVE IT TO YOU IN HIS WILL,THEN YOU'LL HAVE AN INVESTMENT! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

This is getting away form what this site is about (donít post any more) whatís that about [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] and crying because some one does not want to give his info out [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] I have been on this site for about three years and have been learning a lot of new things But why this getting uglier by the minute as far as the RAV what info I have I WILL KEEP TO MY SELF
Itís not worth the hassle [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Ahhhhhh Don, I'm hurt. I've spent my entire life trying to impress you. I guess the only thing left for me is to work the drive thru window at McDonalds and hope some day you will drive thru in your cooler GTO and I can be honored to wait on you. Would a hug help?