Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

You seem fascinated with my prior profession. Maybe you should have joined the force in the past...I also worked with the FBI. I hear you did too. Is that true? FYI, I'm not intimidated, just waiting for your complete and truthful answer to the question: to whom was the envelope offered for sale and by whom? PM me the answer if you like. You asked if it were me in the recent past. I told you no. I asked you for the source and what you know, but you will not divulge! Comeon! Be fair. And Talwell, because of Bergy's reluctance to answer my question(s), this is why I am not so forthcoming with info. Hope you understand. To offer a car in an envelope is illegal and I would have wanted no part of it. If anyone thinks it was me, they are mistaken and wrongfully informed, or hiding something. Bergy, are you afraid and intimidated to disclose same? I'm almost 100% sure I know anyway. Bottom line-I do not want to be at odds with anyone over this car, and I will even help Bergy search for this car body in my neck of the woods if they want me too (if one may still exist). Hell, but now I'm hearing that there may be 2 titled cars with 616414; a restored one and Bergy's. What a mess that would be. There is a '69 body in a yard that I know of for years without a VIN tag and the back half partially missing. Think its worth a look? Also, what will the VIN be when you obtain the state issued special VIN plate that mounts on the firewall? Does the title indicate that any duplicates were issued? Is your title a duplicate copy or original? Are all the prior owner title sequence numbers listed, or were owners skipped? Lots of things to look at here in backtracking. Good luck.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Bergy,
Can you please explain this statement? "A large percentage of my car is 616414"? Thanks

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Tom you have said the car is a re-tag anyway you look at it. You have said you will help Bergy find the body if it still exists. I assume from this that you have unassailable eyewitness (your own eyes) evidence that this car Bergy has is not the Yenko car. So you either saw the remainder of the Yenko in that junkyard at the same time bergy's car was being "assembled" or you saw the little bit of 587974 that was left after the rest of IT was being assembled under the VIN tag of 616414?

I am not questioning your assertions - you seem as sure as Bergy does in his point of view and that's fair - I am just trying to get it (the motive) straight in my own head as this is getting confusing.

So based on your point of view we have to deduct that someone took the following items and put them on an original spoiler car ( which 587974 was not) which means a THIRD car was involved:

-pass side frame rail extension exh hanger reinforcement
-orig single 3/8" fuel sender
-orig single 3/8" fuel line
-9204 booster dated for 03B car
-PS with fast ratio PS arm
-original PDB car
-orig deep groove PS pully
-orig 13/16 HD sway bar
-HD 5 leaf springs
-HD coil springs
-orig door with RG overspray t
-orig spoiler car (F&R)
-orig dash cluster with 140 speedo and holes for S&W tach

So they either wanted to have these special parts to clone a COPO, which they abandoned in favour of a Z28 clone, yet when the car was advertised as a Z28 clone none of these "added" parts were mentioned as special features as to the trouble the sellers went through to accurately clone a Z - "we have even added such things as original deep groove pulleys, HD springs..etc. in this incredible accurate re-creation".

I have not seen any language like this in theBay auction. So why do it and not call attention to it? OR the easy answer is that none of these parts were on the spoiler car they used so they just put them on not caring about their significance. They were just parts. Ok, I can see that.

But these people who have the trim tag and have the cowl stamping stopped short of the VIN tag saying, "no thanks"? If I had those two pieces and I was of that mindset (cloning) I would definitely pay the 20-23K to get the car that wore the VIN.

Unless the trim tag and the cowl stamping no longer exist and replacements have been mocked up in anticipation of resurrecting 616414 out of thin air. I know some people would not pay the sum of 23K, instead saying "let's just get a re-done VIN tag from the same guy who made the TT for us." Perhaps you know this as well.

I hope you and Bergy can figure this out together Tom. I'm just trying to get my own score card straight. As a former police officer I hope you appreciate my attempt to establish &quot;motive&quot; [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img] I just can't follow the logic based on what has been revealed in this thread and think you may have info to fill in the gaps.

Sorry if I have only further confused things.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

vfitom - no title duplicates, continous ownership since the beginning, title transfers at each change of ownership leading all the way to current, registrations and insurance info., etc. Good luck to whoever may have made up a vin tag and restored a car to go with it! Since there are no duplicates, it would have to be a Broadway title (or other title company) transaction in another state. Heck yes! I want the upper cowl section to the car - find it and let's make a deal.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Tracker, I only saw one car one time-in 2000 when we looked at 616414 on the dash and the other VIN on the cowl. No assemblies, no junkyards, etc. as you state. Thanks

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

PM sent to vfitom with all that I know about the &quot;car in an envelope&quot; story. Heck, I didn't add it to this thread - just read back and see where it came from!

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Let's keep in mind that there are only two items on this car that are COPO specific. The 140 speedo and the 13/16 front bar. Can you please answer my question above Bergy?

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

this is an amazing thread, it could be a made for TV movie

action

drama

intrigue

but, I still like the &quot;Old street scenes&quot; thread ( https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbt...471#Post435471 ) better, but this is now my 2nd favorite thread

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

This is getting confusing indeed!

Per the DMV - $5 or more, personally owned or not, I never got Bergy's level of cooperation. Sounds like the DMV is being very helpful here, glad for Bergy as the owner trail is important.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Is anyone tired of COPO140? Evidence is obviously circumstancial at this point. Maybe Bergy has more info and if so, I'm sure he will devulge it when he is ready. Maybe he wants to get all the facts in first in case one of the old owners is reading this thread. Wouldn't want to &quot;lead&quot; a witness.

Jason

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

how many times can someone ask the same question?

are we there yet?
are we there yet?
how much further?
when are we going to get there?
are we there yet?

the thread is interesting with all the facts and research of recollections &amp; memories

just not sure why so many have counterproductive input ... I just don't understand ...

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

I'm not, I think two sides creates balance and in the end will prove to have a positive impact on this car.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Jason,
Don't really care what you think quite frankly. I have asked straight forward questions and they are reasonable questions. Certainly not tough or tricky questions. I like to deal in facts its that simple. No harm intended. If bergy does not want to answer simple questions, he should not comment on a public forum. I think there are several people who want to know what additional info bergy has to make such claims but so far he has been nothing but illusive. I dont trust that and I am sure there are many here that dont. Your attempt to get some sort of rally against me is lame. For some reason you are neglecting to see the power of this statement and I quote &quot;a large percentage of my car is 616414&quot;. I have been around for a long time and have seen cars arise from dust. This seems to be the makings of such an event. I didn't make the statement, bergy did. If he makes that sort of claim in a public forum, he does owe an explaination imo. The facts thus far do not support this claim. So I must ask, who wants to know what additional info bergy has to back that claim?

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Yes, this is very interesting, almost exciting to tune in each day. Kinda makes my three two owner vehicles boring.

by the way, COPO140, I sent you a PM in regards to your earlier inquisitive post.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

I think that is a logical perspective Yenko Duece Registry. All Im looking for is a simple and straight answer. Call me kooky but my direct question has been avoided since I asked it and that is why I continue to smash it home. That really bothers me.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Jason, if I can get a reasonable answer, I will let it go but I think its an important question with such a large claim. The answer opens new avenues to discuss.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

AAGGHHHH!!!!! Hoffa's in the trunk!

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

LOL

Does he have any paperwork in his pockets?

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Funny thing to me is, some photographs of this car in it's &quot; right now&quot; condition would easily show a firewall replacement, as well as all the other assorted COPO/Yenko specific details mentioned (but not shown) I know it's bergy's car and he can post or not post whatever he wants, but I just see all this as a bunch of he said/she said jargon with no photos to verify what EITHER side is claiming. A few good detail pics of this car in it's current condition would likely silence all skeptics, including myself.

I honestly DO have a feeling this is the original yenko body sans firewall if it has all those other details currently, but I haven't seen any of it, only heard of it. The bodyshop pic looked promising, but all it really showed was a door that was green. If it really has all the other details mentioned in it's current state, in unrestored condition, I'd say that would convince me way more than any stack of sworn statements ever would.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

I do agree that it is a large claim and I do think it deserves and answer. I also agree that the claim should not have been made if Bergy was not prepared to back it up. It will be difficult, if not impossible to come close to proving this without disassembling the car.

That said, does it help to ask the same question every other post when no new information has come to light? No, it doesn't. Bergy is the one who added to this thread to say he bought the car to begin with. That goes a long way to show what his intentions are. Add that to the fact that he was also very forthcoming on the 69 RS COPO he recently bought off Ebay, did the footwork on, and restored and I think his intentions are to save a significant car if the facts prove the car is worth saving as a Yenko.

No matter what, at the end of the day the car is still a 69 Camaro with a 4 speed that you could run the piss out of. Isn't that what its all about anyway?

I parted out lots of cars in the 90's. Growing up in Southern CA, if a car had rust in the quarters, trunk, or more than one floor pan, it was a parts car. Doing quarters was just not something that was done there. Lots has changed since then.

Also, in the 90's I would not have known COPO attributes if they were staring me in the face. BE rear? I didn't even know where the codes were. Large sway bar? Must have been a hot rodder. I passed on my 69 Harrell Camaro the first time around because I did not know what to look for.

What I am getting at here is this may or may not be the real Yenko body. I hope it is but the facts will tell the true story and that is what Bergy is after from what I can tell. According to Jim, the car was parted out. That shows how much someone cared that it was a Yenko at the time. If the hulk that was left was founf to be buildable down the line, I don't think anyone cared or even knew it was a big block body, let alone a Yenko. For a Z/28 clone/hotrod does it really matter if the VIN is a 6 cylinder, V8, or state issued VIN? To some yes, but I doubt it mattered to the builder of this car. Maybe the title of the other car was salvaged and they used this VIN? Yes, that is a possibility.

I am sure Bergy will update us when he has more facts and he is ready. He sure has been keeping us up to date to this point. For all who don't think this is the case, look at this thread. It is now 26 pages long!

Wow, I didn't plan to type this much,


Jason

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

bring the car to the MCACN...it could be analyzed and discussed at length.

some of us could really learn from the experience

only half kidding [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Camarojoe,
I want to start off by saying I do not intend on putting you on the defensive but why do you believe the body may be original to 616414?
Here are a couple of things that do not make it plausable for me:
If the firewall in fact was replaced because of an accident and assuming the subframe under the car is original to 616414, how do you explain that? I have seen many cars over the years and if a car is hit hard enough to warrant replacing the firewall, how does the subframe survive and still be complete and usable especially with the stabalizer bar still intact and usable? I don't but it. In addition to that, whenever I have seen a car that has been hit so hard that the firewall needed to be replaced, there is usually so much other structural damage to the car that it is just not worth fixing. I have been hit head on in a 69 camaro and there was damage to the firewall so I know what else is affected. It includes the subframe, floor pans, rockers, complete door jams and roof not to mention other areas. The accident theory does not add up and neither would rust.
Bergy has also stated that he has found ralley green paint on the back half of the car. Were are the photos? These would certainly lend credence to the claims but still would be inconclusive. I for one would like to see RG paint on the back half. It's as simple as looking under the filler panel. The claims have been made on RG paint so lets see the photos bergy. Thanks

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

&quot;I have seen many cars over the years and if a car is hit hard enough to warrent replacing the firewall, how does the subframe survive and still be complete and usable especially with the stabalizer bar still intact and usable?&quot;

I believe Bergy said in a previous post that there is evidence of the sub-frame having been pulled a little wider than it should be - discovered when he tried to remove the cross-member. So somebody had a go at it. Some chain, an oak tree and a good 4WD - boom you're done. Repaint, re-install sub-frame.

Also, there are no absolutes in accidents. The survival of front suspension components in a car that is T-boned just ahead of the windshield post is hardly implausible.

I do not believe there is any amount of evidence that will convince you that this car is &quot;mostly 616414&quot;. You just won't believe it. And that's your right, your opinion and you are entitled to it. Ain't that America. (and Canada).

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Just to fuel the fire, I know of a 69 big block Chevelle that was run off a bridge a few years back. The firewall was pushed back, but the frame was undamaged. Depends on the angle of the hit. Improbable? Maybe. Impossible? No.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Worked at many accident scenes with new cars and oh yes the firewall is often crushed. This is with all the new safety built into cars today.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Tracker, you are correct. There is nothing that will make me believe this car is the real deal. To me, if you truly look at the thread in it's entirety, it's obvious. That being said, I understand and respect that everyone has their own opinion. My opinion is that the car is without question a REBODY with a Yenko vin attached to it and a few other misc parts.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SuperNovaSS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.... I passed on my 69 Harrell Camaro the first time around because I did not know what to look for.


Wow, I didn't plan to type this much,


Jason </div></div>

You might want to start another thread on this statement! You can be Bergy this time, [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img]

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

COPO140, You were calling the car a rebody from the start without ever having looked at the car? You had stated you knew the deal before Bruce ever looked at the car. Where are you/Who are you getting your information from? I have seen nothing in this thread that clearly shows this is a rebody. You have stated time and time again that its a rebody with no proof that it isn't the original Yenko body from the firewall back. Are you saying because the firewall has been compromised, thats what makes it a rebody?

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Yes, I had the opportunity to purchase the car prior to Bergy and did have certain parts of the car inspected although I did not personally inspect it and swiftly passed based on the information I was given. The car is a REBODY in my opinion. I believe that once the firewall is gone, the non-public vins and TT are gone, the car is a rebody. There are many here who agree with my opinion, just search the term &quot;rebody&quot; and read through countless threads. I also understand that the term &quot;rebody&quot; is subjective and opinions will differ. And btw, dont put words in my mouth. I never said the body wasn't original only that in my opinion it was not likely and if it is, where is the proof?

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

First I have to say that you guys need a job. I go work in the shop for a few hours and I come back to 20 new posts. Is there a female in heat on here or something?

For those that could never be convinced that this is indeed most of the original body, if it ever comes up for sale, don't buy it. Also, the car is currently in the garage while Bergy is out of state. Nobody will be able to answer some of your questions until an inspection is done, so COOL IT.

I for one am simply interested in the story. If it turns out to be a rebody, then Bregy has a driver car with an interesting story. If it turns out to be the Yenko, he has a restoration with and interesting story. Keep up the work Bergy.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: COPO140</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, I had the opportunity to purchase the car prior to Bergy and did have certain parts of the car inspected although I did not personally inspect it and swiftly passed based on the information I was given. The car is a REBODY in my opinion. I believe that once the firewall is gone, the non-public vins and TT are gone, the car is a rebody. There are many here who agree with my opinion, just search the term &quot;rebody&quot; and read through countless threads. I also understand that the term &quot;rebody&quot; is subjective and opinions will differ. And btw, dont put words in my mouth. I never said the body wasn't original only that in my opinion it was not likely and if it is, where is the proof? </div></div>

...woulda, shoulda, coulda? Maybe you're inspector should have looked a little longer. I'm pulling for Bergy on this one! Oh yeah and he's a paid member. Ed

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

An interesting thread to say the least! But my first thoughts were &quot;if the hidden VINs both don't match the VIN tag, isn't this an illegal transfer of VIN and couldn't Bergy be in danger of having the car confiscated by the authorities?&quot; I don't understand how this car could have even been legally sold in this situation, especially through Ebay. It seems like Bergy is running a huge risk by not checking the other hidden VIN immediately. It also seem like there should also need to be some photographic evidence of original and replacement VINs showing the firewall repair to ever authenticate this body as the original Yenko body. Way too many people seem to be taking sides without looking at the real legal picture going here. I hope this works out well, but I see potentially serious issues here that should be resolved quickly, not 3-6 months down the road.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

I certainly don't take your concerns lightly Jeff. This car has been in its current configuration for at least 20 years. If it was repaired with a partial cowl in 1985 as I believe, the vin tag was re-attached then. You are correct, it's not a good situation, but we all recognize that rusted out cowls are replaced during restoration all of the time (with the vin re-attached). I don't take this lightly and I will move for a judicial declaration as to the propriety of this vin being attached to this car as soon as I have sufficient evidence.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Quite a dramatic day of exchanges between a few people - the one thing that sticks out to me despite all these exchanges is that not a single fact or evidence towards either side has been exchanged.

Bergy - please continue your exploration as it will lead to the truths despite what anyone wishes to believe is thier truth. I love the fact that you want to bring this car back to day one and chronograph the entire history of it to prove what it is and what it isn't. I have no doubt that based on the evidence you have provided to this point that this is most certainly a special car - either it was a COPO donor or it is still mostly the original Yenko body. In my eyes, even if the firewall is replaced and attached to what is the original Yenko car that this is still the Yenko car. I just sold my COPO tribute car that had every single body panel replaced and I still feel that it is the original SS big block car that it was produced as even with having replaced all the sheet metal - the shell is still there and to that end it is still the original car it was produced as.

This is kind of like a human involved in a tragedy - if all thier skin is burned off and grafted from a donor and they received a face transplant from another donor in the end are they a different person or the same prior to all the transplants?

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Considering Bergy's the only one in a position to compare any of the speculative information with the vehicle itself, his statement a few posts above admitting he's aware the Vin tag itself has actually been loose at some time may be the first conclusive fact revealed here yet!?

Regarding any legal issues, besides obvious concerns for the vehicle and parts in their current state or how they may have become as they are now, if a request for information regarding an accumulation of vehicle parts especially when including a specific Vin is publicly advertised, if any crime has ever been actually committed and those who know truths take part in discussions about it but only volunteer part of any information they may know, could this be considered aiding and abetting?.
Or would this only apply if questioned by someone of legal authority and/or later in a court of law?.

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif[/img]
~ Pete

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: talwell</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I just sold my COPO tribute car that had every single body panel replaced and I still feel that it is the original SS big block car that it was produced as even with having replaced all the sheet metal - the shell is still there and to that end it is still the original car it was produced as.

This is kind of like a human involved in a tragedy - if all thier skin is burned off and grafted from a donor and they received a face transplant from another donor in the end are they a different person or the same prior to all the transplants? </div></div>

We've been down this road many, many times. It reaches a dead end when we invoke the image of Schoneye's face on Pam Anderson's body. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/eek.gif[/img]

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: talwell</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div>
We've been down this road many, many times. It reaches a dead end when we invoke the image of Schoneye's face on Pam Anderson's body. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/eek.gif[/img] </div></div>
Ya, but you can still put a bag on it and enjoy it!
Peter

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Nice. Real nice. I don't bother anybody and get dragged in by example.(big smile, can't find the gramlins)
I think it will be interesting to see how pieces are spliced on. Usually if car was hit as described by the previous posts in that time era, it was front, or back halfed. Rarely was there an effort to graft pieces on a firewall as it took to much time. Looking at how the car was repaired can tell us a lot as to what the intent of the person/s were when the car was repaired. FWIW

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Regardless of how the stamped numbers got there, how do you rectify the problem? The VIN plate does not match the stamped/hidden numbers, a serious problem both legally and in our hobby.