Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Numbers matching engine" at Barrett-Jackson now means the engine and trans have the same restamps, or the block predates the car.

"Numbers matching car" means all four tires are the same size. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank the Corvette sector of the hobby for this one. This born the form effort to continue to maufacture concours topflight and GOLD winners. Restamping has gotten so good, proving the "numbers matching" motor is the original has become an exercise in proving a negative.- Prove that it's NOT a re-stamp and then I've believe it's original. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif

IMHO, in this "new world" the more things that you have to prove the car is the genuine article aside from the engine, the less impact having a replacement block or a re-stamp has on the value of the vehicle. On well documented cars, an original motor becomes the cherry on top rather than the whole cake. Frankly, we all know most muscle cars blew their top before some of us were out of diapers... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/blush.gif

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Numbers matching engine" at Barrett-Jackson now means the engine and trans have the same restamps, or the block predates the car.

"Numbers matching car" means all four tires are the same size. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

No, all four tires have matching pressure #'s 32psi. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Numbers matching engine" at Barrett-Jackson now means the engine and trans have the same restamps, or the block predates the car.

"Numbers matching car" means all four tires are the same size. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank the Corvette sector of the hobby for this one. This born the form effort to continue to maufacture concours topflight and GOLD winners. Restamping has gotten so good, proving the "numbers matching" motor is the original has become an exercise in proving a negative.- Prove that it's NOT a re-stamp and then I've believe it's original. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif

IMHO, in this "new world" the more things that you have to prove the car is the genuine article aside from the engine, the less impact having a replacement block or a re-stamp has on the value of the vehicle. On well documented cars, an original motor becomes the cherry on top rather than the whole cake. Frankly, we all know most muscle cars blew their top before some of us were out of diapers... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/blush.gif

[/ QUOTE ] Maybe I am wrong but to blame restamps on Corvette owners/organizations is irresponsible. I know that I have seen plenty of fraud with all types of cars. I blame people who are only in it for the money, not for the love of cars, in other words greed!

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

The Corvette judging bodies have no problem with restamps, because the objective is to bring the car back to dealer showroom condition and originality. Inside the judging world, a disclosed restamp is not a faux pas. It is practice promoted by the mere fact that you cannot achieve an NCRS Top Flight or a Bloomington Gold with an NOM or even a CE block with paperwork to back it up as a legit warranty replacement. Most people I've encountered outside the Corvette judging world look ANY restamping as attempt at fraud. Plainly put, the practice has been fostered and perfected so people can chase trophies. Without that incentive, my judgment is that the practice would be much less prevalent or difficult to detect. The general collector community doesn't value the restamp the same way. They want original so unscrupulous sellers take "numbers matching" and represent it as original. For better or worst that is the state of the union.

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

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As far as the shill bidding, I'm a car dealer by trade. I go to wholesale auctions weekly. Shill bidding is as common as a cup of bad coffee.It happens on , I'd bet 70% of all cars thru a wholesale auction. If the seller won't sell the car under, say, $10,000 , the auctioneer runs the car there [$9900] with or without a 'real' bidder. Next 'real' bid buys the car. [these are NOT 'no reserve' auctions..]

Yeah if I was the buyer I'd be pissed off Reggie was a seemingly obvious shill for the owner...but that's the way auctions are. It can be a really lousy place to buy a car...wholesale or retail.

I personally wouldn't get NEAR a collector car at an auction without superior knowledge about a car...

Maybe the buyer knew exactly what he was doing...he paid the premium to be on TV.



[/ QUOTE ]


Shill bidding is part of the sellers agreement at Russo Steele Reserve Auction as explained by Drew last Feb:


"Advancement of Bidding: RS retains the right to advance the bidding up to, but not in excess of, the Reserve, as agent for the Seller. RS further reserves the right, at its sole discretion, to Sell the Vehicle at a high bid price less than that price identified as the “Reserve Price,” provided that RS nets the Seller the specified reserve amount less all-applicable sales commissions and fees.


This clause is clearly stated in Russo and Steele’s Consignment Agreement under section 8, d.

Drew Alcazar"

[/ QUOTE ]

Mecum and others have the same type of language in their contracts, allowing the owner of a car bid on their own vehicle up to the reserve. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see the harm in this, it's not going to sell if it fails to meet reserve, and it takes a real buyer (willing to pay what he bids) to get it past reserve. You might have a willing buyer sitting at $25,000 below reserve, nobody to bid against him, who is also willing to pay the reserve price? You wouldn't have a sale if they didn't push the bid to the reserve. If the guy at $25K below is not willing to pay the reserve price then it doesn't sell. Tell me who gets hurt?

[/ QUOTE ]

To me it artificially inflates the price a real bidder is willing to spend and what the real market price of the car(not what the seller wants). If I'm at an auction I don't want to bid against myself. If a car doesn't legitimately meet reserve then possibly something could be negotiated by both buyer& seller once it is off the block.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see your point and yes, a deal may occur after the auction but the way I see it, you bid on a car with a cieling number in your head regarding how much you are willing to pay. If someone does that, it really doesn't matter if it was shilled up or not.

Besides, do we really believe that these auctions are what truly determines the value of these cars?

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

[ QUOTE ]
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As far as the shill bidding, I'm a car dealer by trade. I go to wholesale auctions weekly. Shill bidding is as common as a cup of bad coffee.It happens on , I'd bet 70% of all cars thru a wholesale auction. If the seller won't sell the car under, say, $10,000 , the auctioneer runs the car there [$9900] with or without a 'real' bidder. Next 'real' bid buys the car. [these are NOT 'no reserve' auctions..]

Yeah if I was the buyer I'd be pissed off Reggie was a seemingly obvious shill for the owner...but that's the way auctions are. It can be a really lousy place to buy a car...wholesale or retail.

I personally wouldn't get NEAR a collector car at an auction without superior knowledge about a car...

Maybe the buyer knew exactly what he was doing...he paid the premium to be on TV.



[/ QUOTE ]


Shill bidding is part of the sellers agreement at Russo Steele Reserve Auction as explained by Drew last Feb:


"Advancement of Bidding: RS retains the right to advance the bidding up to, but not in excess of, the Reserve, as agent for the Seller. RS further reserves the right, at its sole discretion, to Sell the Vehicle at a high bid price less than that price identified as the “Reserve Price,” provided that RS nets the Seller the specified reserve amount less all-applicable sales commissions and fees.


This clause is clearly stated in Russo and Steele’s Consignment Agreement under section 8, d.

Drew Alcazar"

[/ QUOTE ]

Mecum and others have the same type of language in their contracts, allowing the owner of a car bid on their own vehicle up to the reserve. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see the harm in this, it's not going to sell if it fails to meet reserve, and it takes a real buyer (willing to pay what he bids) to get it past reserve. You might have a willing buyer sitting at $25,000 below reserve, nobody to bid against him, who is also willing to pay the reserve price? You wouldn't have a sale if they didn't push the bid to the reserve. If the guy at $25K below is not willing to pay the reserve price then it doesn't sell. Tell me who gets hurt?

[/ QUOTE ]

To me it artificially inflates the price a real bidder is willing to spend and what the real market price of the car(not what the seller wants). If I'm at an auction I don't want to bid against myself. If a car doesn't legitimately meet reserve then possibly something could be negotiated by both buyer& seller once it is off the block.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see your point and yes, a deal may occur after the auction but the way I see it, you bid on a car with a cieling number in your head regarding how much you are willing to pay. If someone does that, it really doesn't matter if it was shilled up or not.

Besides, do we really believe that these auctions are what truly determines the value of these cars?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think BJ has zero to do with setting the prices of cars. People may think that but it's only about bringing in more than you spend, same for all us. It's fun to get together, see all the cars, shoot the breeze, do some charity work - that work's really well for the seller - talk about a super inflated tax deduction. It's a business that has to be about selling other owners cars to other people, period. We can bash, talk, whatever, at the end of the day it is what it is. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif This is the most knowledgable place to be, seriously.

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

I saw today in the AZ Republic where BJ collected 64 million, a 28% decrease. 30% less value sounds about right overall, some cars more, some less. All but one auction company that week was down. Hopefully all the values will go up in the years to come, then of course we'll say "he paid that much for it" LOL.

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

"The Corvette judging bodies have no problem with restamps"

This is not true, if engine judges smell a restamp, the engine is busted. Heck, if they don't like the look of an original engine, they bust it. This happens on a regular basis. Some judges estimate the number of broach marks per inch on a pad and will bust an engine for that.
Bottom line is that if the restamp is "typical factory production in appearance" it will pass. This doesn't mean that a restamp is OK, but there is not enough evidence to prove that it is a restamp, some are done very well. Something like being innocent until proven guilty.
Granted, lots of restamps make it though NCRS judging, but if it is an obvious restamp, it won't. As I said, lots of original engines don't make it thought NCRS judging. I've seen it personally with vehicles I know about. The pad has to have the appearance of "typical factory production" if it does with out question meet this criteria, it passes. If it doesn't, it is busted, original or restamp.

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As far as the shill bidding, I'm a car dealer by trade. I go to wholesale auctions weekly. Shill bidding is as common as a cup of bad coffee.It happens on , I'd bet 70% of all cars thru a wholesale auction. If the seller won't sell the car under, say, $10,000 , the auctioneer runs the car there [$9900] with or without a 'real' bidder. Next 'real' bid buys the car. [these are NOT 'no reserve' auctions..]

Yeah if I was the buyer I'd be pissed off Reggie was a seemingly obvious shill for the owner...but that's the way auctions are. It can be a really lousy place to buy a car...wholesale or retail.

I personally wouldn't get NEAR a collector car at an auction without superior knowledge about a car...

Maybe the buyer knew exactly what he was doing...he paid the premium to be on TV.



[/ QUOTE ]


Shill bidding is part of the sellers agreement at Russo Steele Reserve Auction as explained by Drew last Feb:


"Advancement of Bidding: RS retains the right to advance the bidding up to, but not in excess of, the Reserve, as agent for the Seller. RS further reserves the right, at its sole discretion, to Sell the Vehicle at a high bid price less than that price identified as the “Reserve Price,” provided that RS nets the Seller the specified reserve amount less all-applicable sales commissions and fees.


This clause is clearly stated in Russo and Steele’s Consignment Agreement under section 8, d.

Drew Alcazar"

[/ QUOTE ]

Mecum and others have the same type of language in their contracts, allowing the owner of a car bid on their own vehicle up to the reserve. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see the harm in this, it's not going to sell if it fails to meet reserve, and it takes a real buyer (willing to pay what he bids) to get it past reserve. You might have a willing buyer sitting at $25,000 below reserve, nobody to bid against him, who is also willing to pay the reserve price? You wouldn't have a sale if they didn't push the bid to the reserve. If the guy at $25K below is not willing to pay the reserve price then it doesn't sell. Tell me who gets hurt?

[/ QUOTE ]

If that's true, what difference does it make who does the shill bidding, reserve, or not? I guess it's OK for Reggie to bid until it looks like he went a step too far. Then let him retract his last bid.

Maybe someone could talk to ebay about the "automatic bidding" system. Instead of increasing by one tick over the next highest bid, it should automatically move to your high bid.

Like I said in the past, "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen." or, "It's their sandbox, their rules." I'm staying out of the kitchen AND the sandbox!!

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

[ QUOTE ]

"The Corvette judging bodies have no problem with restamps"

This is not true, if engine judges smell a restamp, the engine is busted. Heck, if they don't like the look of an original engine, they bust it. This happens on a regular basis. Some judges estimate the number of broach marks per inch on a pad and will bust an engine for that.
Bottom line is that if the restamp is "typical factory production in appearance" it will pass. This doesn't mean that a restamp is OK, but there is not enough evidence to prove that it is a restamp, some are done very well. Something like being innocent until proven guilty.
Granted, lots of restamps make it though NCRS judging, but if it is an obvious restamp, it won't. As I said, lots of original engines don't make it thought NCRS judging. I've seen it personally with vehicles I know about. The pad has to have the appearance of "typical factory production" if it does with out question meet this criteria, it passes. If it doesn't, it is busted, original or restamp.

[/ QUOTE ]

Points well taken, perhaps it is unfair to assign blame to Corvette Judges for the proliferation of the restamping practice. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif With auction houses and other venues adopting the definition of "numbers matching" to being "typical factory production in appearance" it seems to further encourage restamping as a restoration practice. In fact, even original stampings without owner history to corroborate a drivetrain's origin, one cannot claim "original" with legal certainty. This forces brokers like me to also adopt the lesser standard of "numbers matching" as a descriptor rather than "original". It also puts the import of provenance over the observable traits of a car.

On the matter of "shill bidding" and dealing with the auction environment in general, I wrote a handy little article to turn the enviroment to the individuals advantage called The Art of War (Auction Style) Enjoy!

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

Restamps are part of the hobby at this point, they are prevalent in the entire Chevrolet line of classic cars. To restamp an engine for a 435 horse '67 is one thing, but to create a '67 435 horse car out of a Corvette that came with a lesser engine is scary. I know that the Corvette hobby is pretty tolerant of a restamp of an engine that was originally optioned in a car, but made up cars are another story.
I'll need to visit your facility on one of my trips to Chicago. You live in a beautiful part of the State.

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

If only Chevy had the paperwork ala PHS, one can dream

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

The cars are probably saying " just drive me, hard or soft, keep me maintained, polish me once in a while, show me off sometimes, and take me to see my other car likes once in a while, but these humans with their egos and greed just take all of the fun out of it."

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

[ QUOTE ]
The cars are probably saying " just drive me, hard or soft, keep me maintained, polish me once in a while, show me off sometimes, and take me to see my other car likes once in a while, but these humans with their egos and greed just take all of the fun out of it."

[/ QUOTE ]

LMAO! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

I happen to believe that NCRS IS, IS, IS, IS responsible for the state of the art regarding restamped engines. Their judging guidelines require a block to "appear" original for full credit. Full credit means a "top" award, and accordingly an increased value of the car. There's a BIG difference between an original car and one that "appears" original.
This practice started with Corvettes; not Camaros, Chevelles, COPOs, Impalas, Fords, Mopars or any other car. It would have happened sooner or later of course for other marques, but it was the Corvette "hobby" that spawned it.

Let's have a national judging competition for fake Mona Lisas. Call in all the art experts and have them judge everyone's "reproductions". If nothing can be observed that is any different than the original, then they all get a perfect score, are deserving of the same credit as the original and are worth a LOT more money. Afterall, they've been signed off to be as (or as good as) an original. (what's the difference in that judging venue?)

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif

And that's the WHOLE problem. There is NO difference between a clone that earns an NCRS TOP FLIGHT award and an original car that earns an NCRS TOP FLIGHT award!. Both earned the same points.......the same award......the same stature......and the same increased value...... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

Verne https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

[ QUOTE ]
I happen to believe that NCRS IS, IS, IS, IS responsible for the state of the art regarding restamped engines. Their judging guidelines require a block to "appear" original for full credit. Full credit means a "top" award, and accordingly an increased value of the car. There's a BIG difference between an original car and one that "appears" original.
This practice started with Corvettes; not Camaros, Chevelles, COPOs, Impalas, Fords, Mopars or any other car. It would have happened sooner or later of course for other marques, but it was the Corvette "hobby" that spawned it.

Let's have a national judging competition for fake Mona Lisas. Call in all the art experts and have them judge everyone's "reproductions". If nothing can be observed that is any different than the original, then they all get a perfect score, are deserving of the same credit as the original and are worth a LOT more money. Afterall, they've been signed off to be as (or as good as) an original. (what's the difference in that judging venue?)

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif

And that's the WHOLE problem. There is NO difference between a clone that earns an NCRS TOP FLIGHT award and an original car that earns an NCRS TOP FLIGHT award!. Both earned the same points.......the same award......the same stature......and the same increased value...... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

Verne https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not intimately familiar with NCRS standards, but if your interpretation is accurate...you nailed it Verne.

BTW while we are on the subject, the term restoration drivetrain really torques me. I am not sure of the roots (I think I know who coined it), but it means restamp, fake, non original, but sounds more pleasant.

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

I dont think that one can blame the vette guys for the re-stamps of the Camaros. Chevelles,etc....The fact that they were first is a simple matter of economics. They were the first cars to be worth the effort ($$$) to obtain a restamped motor. The Camaros, Chevelles,etc. were just waiting for the values to go up.

At the Camaro Nationals in Carlisle, can a Camaro get a top award in the judging competition if the judges cannot tell it is a restamp?? If the restamp looks perfect??I suspect very few people admit that their motor is restamped even if they knew!!! So what other method is there for the judges?? If I put used or NOS parts on my car that are absolutely correct, I would not expect my car to be marked down...whether it is the block, heads, air cleaner or any other part...whether it is the original born-with parts or not!!

I have to stick up for the Vette guys here!! jmo

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

It was human nature that spawned it; not the NCRS, they just addressed the inevidible. There will always be people who want their car as close to new as possible, that includes everything from chalk marks to original appearing motors. If ANY componant of car does not appear original it can't receive full credit.

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

Yea, you sure can't blame the Corvette guys that there are more BE rears today than were ever made.

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

It was funny when a dealer at Barratt said to me: Why would you bring that car here without stamping the motor before you bring it here !! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif I was laughing pretty hard inside nowing this guy sells quite a bit at auctions...

I look at his cars a little different !!

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yea, you sure can't blame the Corvette guys that there are more BE rears today than were ever made.

[/ QUOTE ]

They might be stammped to look like a BE.....but try and find the goodies that go inside.
If it were a car I did there would be a bunce of photo's of the inside stuff.
Mike

Mike

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think that one can blame the vette guys for the re-stamps of the Camaros. Chevelles,etc....The fact that they were first is a simple matter of economics. They were the first cars to be worth the effort ($$$) to obtain a restamped motor. The Camaros, Chevelles,etc. were just waiting for the values to go up.

At the Camaro Nationals in Carlisle, can a Camaro get a top award in the judging competition if the judges cannot tell it is a restamp?? If the restamp looks perfect??I suspect very few people admit that their motor is restamped even if they knew!!! So what other method is there for the judges?? If I put used or NOS parts on my car that are absolutely correct, I would not expect my car to be marked down...whether it is the block, heads, air cleaner or any other part...whether it is the original born-with parts or not!!

I have to stick up for the Vette guys here!! jmo

[/ QUOTE ]

When judging, my opinion:
NOS parts should only be awarded full point, if they match what was used in the original production of the car. Many NOS parts are worthless because they do not represent factory production parts. In fact many reproduction parts are much more accuarte and I feel that they should receive higher point due to accuracy and represent "best available". When possible use I recommend recondition original parts.

Restamping of components permeates virtually all brands and models. Fingers can be pointed, but that resolves nothing except make certain groups defensive.

In many cases restamped components can be detected, but once the restampers learn what the judges look for they hone their craft. Unfortunately you have individual funding the restoration drivetrain companies(restamper) enabling them to perfect their craft of deception. So who is to blame... car owners, judging programs, dealers, hobbyist, take your pick.

Regarding the Camaro nationals when restamped components are detected, the car scores based on that fact and it is noted and documented. It (restamping of components)is in no way embraced or justified. Are restamps undetected of course, but like cars judges are not perfect.

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

So what is the general thought on the proper way to restore a car that no longer has its original motor, trans or etc..

Do you just get a part that is cast correctly and ignore build stamps and VIN? Or just stamp the build stamp and leave the VIN off? Curious as I am building my motor now for my 70 L78.

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

[ QUOTE ]
So what is the general thought on the proper way to restore a car that no longer has its original motor, trans or etc..

Do you just get a part that is cast correctly and ignore build stamps and VIN? Or just stamp the build stamp and leave the VIN off? Curious as I am building my motor now for my 70 L78.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stamp it NOM https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

Years ago there was a 68 Z28 out here that had the block stamped "MO is at home".

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

[ QUOTE ]
I happen to believe that NCRS IS, IS, IS, IS responsible for the state of the art regarding restamped engines. Their judging guidelines require a block to "appear" original for full credit. Full credit means a "top" award, and accordingly an increased value of the car. There's a BIG difference between an original car and one that "appears" original.
This practice started with Corvettes; not Camaros, Chevelles, COPOs, Impalas, Fords, Mopars or any other car. It would have happened sooner or later of course for other marques, but it was the Corvette "hobby" that spawned it.

Let's have a national judging competition for fake Mona Lisas. Call in all the art experts and have them judge everyone's "reproductions". If nothing can be observed that is any different than the original, then they all get a perfect score, are deserving of the same credit as the original and are worth a LOT more money. Afterall, they've been signed off to be as (or as good as) an original. (what's the difference in that judging venue?)

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif

And that's the WHOLE problem. There is NO difference between a clone that earns an NCRS TOP FLIGHT award and an original car that earns an NCRS TOP FLIGHT award!. Both earned the same points.......the same award......the same stature......and the same increased value...... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif






Ah, but there is a difference between an original car that earns a Top Flight award and a clone that earns a Top Flight award, a large financial difference that a knowledgeable buyer will probably be aware of. Those inside the hobby know or should do their homework to be sure they are buying a quality car with history. That's were the leg work comes in. If you buy a clone for an original car price, it is a shame. Did the buyer do the proper leg work to determine the vehicles history, did they buy a car with no paperwork?
Does any other organization have a program to send in a copy of the paperwork, trim tag, or pad stamp for a professional opinion of its originality? If cars are being made up to satisfy judging standards, people behind the scene are helping prevent these cars from being sold as such.
Do any other organizations publish books or put on seminars on how to verify original engine stamps or trim tags?
NCRS devised a standard for quality cars to achieve a Top Flight and I respect that standard. I've had 20 cars judged over the years at NCRS events. I don't think that NCRS should be criticized for devising a standard of what a good car is and then be criticized because individuals create cars to fall into those standards. Texas has one of the strongest NCRS Chapters in the Country and our Waco Regional is attended by some of the most knowledgeable NCRS judges and finest Corvettes in existence. Some cars have restamp motors, fake trim tags, add on sidepipes and other items to maximize their points. I venture to say that most completely made up cars are not able to achieve Top Flight status, if they do, they are surrounded by suspicion. Word gets out on these cars and they don't bring the premium dollars of a real car with real paperwork and real history. Today, any car you buy had best have some history or paperwork to back it up if it is a rare piece. Do your homework because there is lots junk out there that looks pretty.
If you attend a strong NCRS event with knowledgeable judges, you'd be surprised to see the disappointed owners when they find out their trim tag has been replaced or their engine is a definite restamp. NCRS does not like that stuff, it's bad for the organization and bad for the reputation of the cars.

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

[ QUOTE ]
Years ago there was a 68 Z28 out here that had the block stamped "MO is at home".

[/ QUOTE ]

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif The guy was smart!


I also agree with Verne with regard to the need to ensure that real, honest and true cars (whether they have been restored or not), need to be held in higher regard then a correct or well "engineered" car has. Judging criteria needs to be re-visited so that Top Flight and gold awards do not go out to BS cars.

There needs to be a class where forensic judging occurs. This means that all body panel dates and stamps are looked at and compared to a library of records and pictures on a computer (laptop) so that a clear conclusion can be made.

Points should be deducted for the re-application of the vin tag, trim tag, re-stamps, non-original body panels and interior parts and so on.....

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

After the auctions we have these discussions of things that happened and our views of them. I look at this as a problem for the longevity of the "hobby" because it erodes the confidence of those on the entry level. The continued interest in these cars is what keeps the hobby alive. If the hobbyist or customer base becomes or remains stagnant or actually shrinks the hobby will slowly die. How long will it be before the stress level of making the big purchase takes the enjoyment out of it. If it is the value/price issue that is of concern one can look at it as a decrease in demand and an increase in supply and we all know where that leads. People can continue to buy and sell cars to each other but down the road if the new blood does not come in because the new blood has no confidence in the product or is so intimidated that they don't want to get in where does that leave things.

If the situation doesn't get addressed such that the newbies cant have a reasonable amount of confidence in the product, I'm afraid the hobby will die, or at least the part which revolves around original rare cars.

JMHO

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Years ago there was a 68 Z28 out here that had the block stamped "MO is at home".

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https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif The guy was smart!


I also agree with Verne with regard to the need to ensure that real, honest and true cars (whether they have been restored or not), need to be held in higher regard then a correct or well "engineered" car has. Judging criteria needs to be re-visited so that Top Flight and gold awards do not go out to BS cars.

There needs to be a class where forensic judging occurs. This means that all body panel dates and stamps are looked at and compared to a library of records and pictures on a computer (laptop) so that a clear conclusion can be made.

Points should be deducted for the re-application of the vin tag, trim tag, re-stamps, non-original body panels and interior parts and so on..... [/quote ]I know that I would welcome that type of judging to help separate the real from the fakes. This would help the hobby in the near and long term.

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

[ QUOTE ]
After the auctions we have these discussions of things that happened and our views of them. I look at this as a problem for the longevity of the "hobby" because it erodes the confidence of those on the entry level. The continued interest in these cars is what keeps the hobby alive. If the hobbyist or customer base becomes or remains stagnant or actually shrinks the hobby will slowly die. How long will it be before the stress level of making the big purchase takes the enjoyment out of it. If it is the value/price issue that is of concern one can look at it as a decrease in demand and an increase in supply and we all know where that leads. People can continue to buy and sell cars to each other but down the road if the new blood does not come in because the new blood has no confidence in the product or is so intimidated that they don't want to get in where does that leave things.

If the situation doesn't get addressed such that the newbies cant have a reasonable amount of confidence in the product, I'm afraid the hobby will die, or at least the part which revolves around original rare cars.

JMHO

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, it's been happening for years and getting worse. Thank goodness for this site and a few dealers (like Colin)to kinda keep em somewhat in check. It really has taken out all the fun for me personally, and alot of the previous owners that you call about a certain car feel the same way, i.e Dr. Milton Kim. Sad in a way.

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

Tim,
I appreciate all the effort you and others have gone through to educate yourselves enough to detect restamps and other "cloning" methods. I can also appreciate the efforts by NCRS to educate more people so they can determine the real from the fake. Never the less, a Top Flight award is given to a car for its "appearance" of originality. Many people who are interested in purchasing a quailty Corvette are not as educated as you are. To them, the Top Flight award is their "proof" that they're getting a real car. I know that the NCRS has tried to make it clear that that is not what the award means, but unfortunately, the award does add a lot of value to a car, whether it's deserved or not.
As I said, the art of broaching and restamping would have been refined anyway over time, purely as a part of fraud and misrepresentation of high dollar cars, but the judging criteria of the NCRS (based on appearance of originality) literally opened the doors for the craft to be perfected. In plain language, what they're saying is that it's perfectly ok to have a "restoration motor" in your car, as long as we can't tell it's a fake. You get the same credit as a real one.
Personally, I not accept a restamped block as just another step in the restoration process. Afterall, the replacement engine has not been "restored"; its been altered to appear to be something it never was. As long as awards are bestowed to cars because they "appear" to be just like one Chevrolet might have built, the forgery business will flourish. The true history of those cars has been changed. Maybe its just me, but I'd rather see a car's history preserved rather than seeing a reproduction of something that might have been built. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Verne https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the situation doesn't get addressed such that the newbies cant have a reasonable amount of confidence in the product, I'm afraid the hobby will die, or at least the part which revolves around original rare cars.

JMHO

[/ QUOTE ]

Carl, you outline the dilemma quite well. So what is the best choice? Adopt a popular judging standard as appropriate for the market too? I think we can all agree that people want to know that the car they are buying is genuine, how original it is, and where it's been before they got it (it's history).

Sellers are afraid of being punished (or motivated by greed) to be transparently candid about these points for fear the investment they made will evaporate.

Buyers attempt to place a limit to what they are willing to spend based on price guides, public auction results, and opinions of other enthusiasts.

Price guides DO NOT consider: Pedigree, correctness, originality, or the uniqueness of an individual car.

Public Actions (by in large) DO NOT give candid view of a cars originality, correctness, or a the history of a car, that is all on the prospective buyer. Price is based on an engineered environment to determine value, not the merits of a car- accept on rare occasion (like Body#1 Serial#2 '57 Chevy that hammered for $150k at BJ). That car earned because of her pedigree and provenance.

So the task is left to judges and enthusiasts groups to set the standard, each for the marque they hold interest in. Very often, these favor whatever restoration businesses happen to be active in the group, standards are set by those restoration practices rather than the factory that produced them in the first place.

Right now, a new buyer sophomoricly demands all original drive train, all original sheet metal, concours detail, and unimpeachable documentation for EVERY car as proof of authenticity. Otherwise, the car considered is worthless.

This all or nothing approach to valuing these cars is out of step with how they were used throughout their life, and fuels the temptation for owners to falsify their cars in order to protect their investment. In the end, it damages an otherwise perfectly genuine cars and undermines confidence in the market. This attitude is exemplified by the acceptance of "undetectable" restamps as co-equal with original engines in the Corvette hobby.

To make certain a car is genuine, for each make their needs to be a standard set, based on what can determine if a car is "real".

With Mopars, you have an engine code right in the VIN that shows if a car is a true HEMI or not. Is an NOM in a Hemi car endanger the car's pedigree? NOPE. Were most likely raced within an inch of their existence within the first 5 years of their life (damn skippy), should they be impugned because they don't have an original motor? NO WAY.

The same exercise needs to be done for every other marque for each major component of the car, drive train, chassis, bodywork, and paperwork. A minimum standard set to determine authenticity. That universal standard applied uniquely to each marque will be the thing that gives new buyer entering the hobby the confidence they need to spend their money. The other factors, such as originality and history is a matter of personal preference for determining value.

Overall, judging standards need to be in unity with what the market finds acceptable and reward what is preferable. Somehow, honoring what can be proved to be authentic and reward remarkably original while not diminishing what is less than perfect- because no car is.

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If the situation doesn't get addressed such that the newbies cant have a reasonable amount of confidence in the product, I'm afraid the hobby will die, or at least the part which revolves around original rare cars.

JMHO

[/ QUOTE ]

Carl, you outline the dilemma quite well. So what is the best choice? Adopt a popular judging standard as appropriate for the market too?

[/ QUOTE ]

F**k the market. That's what got us into this mess - people restoring these cars to make a buck instead of restoring them because they love them.

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

[ QUOTE ]

F**k the market. That's what got us into this mess - people restoring these cars to make a buck instead of restoring them because they love them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for that, I just snorted coffee out my nose! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

F**k the market. That's what got us into this mess - people restoring these cars to make a buck instead of restoring them because they love them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for that, I just snorted coffee out my nose! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif Time to get this hobby back into the hands of those that started it.

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

[ QUOTE ]
F**k the market. That's what got us into this mess - people restoring these cars to make a buck instead of restoring them because they love them.

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd make a great commentator at Barrett-Jackson. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/headbang.gif

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
F**k the market. That's what got us into this mess - people restoring these cars to make a buck instead of restoring them because they love them.

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd make a great commentator at Barrett-Jackson. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/headbang.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, the only people who would appreciate my comments if I were, would be you guys because I would have you all in stitches picking the cars apart while interviewing the sellers.

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

F**k the market. That's what got us into this mess - people restoring these cars to make a buck instead of restoring them because they love them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for that, I just snorted coffee out my nose! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif Time to get this hobby back into the hands of those that started it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen brother Hylton!.
Now tell us what you really think!.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif
~ Pete

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

F**k the market. That's what got us into this mess - people restoring these cars to make a buck instead of restoring them because they love them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for that, I just snorted coffee out my nose! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not in the car business. Never have been, never will be, the cars I own I will most likely never make a buck off of. I have loved cars since before I was able to drive. I stepped out of the "hobby" for a number of years because of financial issues.

I consider myself somewhat of a novice in the whole "numbers" thing, so my comments comes from the viewpoint of a plebe in this game the way it's played now. I understand that there are people here who do live in the car biz and those who don't, I don't have an ax to grind with anyone here.

That being said, I do have an interest in seeing the hobby preserved and prosper, why, because I need sources, services, parts..... and all those resources that allow me to enjoy my cars, one of the only hobbies that I have now.Some things I can do myself and feel very comfortable in the results, some things I cant, or do I have the capital to tool-up,equip for, or would it make sense to for the amount of use I would give them. So I am somewhat tied to that "market" such that if the market dies, so do a lot of the services and sources that "I" need for my enjoyment.

As a novice I'm sure my prospective is very different that most people here. That's all I'm offering is a view of how I feel when I look at what is going on and I see a situation that is going to keep people from coming aboard.

Maybe I'm completely missing the boat. But from my perspective the deal gets scarier every day.

.02


https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro
 

The market of buying and selling these cars is different than the parts market. People will always be rebuilding these cars so the demand for parts will always be there. I don't know any repro part that no longer exists other than parts which have been replaced by better and more correct pieces.

There will always be a market for the real cars. Most of them get sold by word of mouth.