Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wagonmaster. You keep harping like you have been warning us all along and we never heard of people faking paperwork. You act like the sole reason to build your car was to educate people but in reality 99% of the people that saw your car at a show were led to believe it was the real thing because unless they talked to you and asked you about it, they simply walked off thinking it was a rare car. Now in hindsight you are acting like the car was built to educate people when in fact it misled many people. Then you came to this site and ended up really pissing people off when they find out you are posting under a second name hyping your own car. You have brought most of this on yourself. Give it a rest.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wagonman - This is really the issue. Most regulars here are VERY well educated in fraud and have been on top of what has been going on even before you decided to build your car. You seem intent on always stating that YOU are the reason we are all now knowledgeable on the issue. This may come across to some board members as an insult to them simply because of the length of time they have been in this hobby. It also makes you look bad because it shows you have not done any homework on this site or other sites to see what members have been talking about for years (search function is your freind https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif).

Another reason you may come across in a negative light is that many here have been burned by fraudulent misrepresentation and do not take kindly to someone who shows a car as something it is not. Now I am not saying that you should not have built your car but when you show it, state very clearly in your paperwork that the car is a clone. Like Charley said, if you have all this fake paperwork supporting your high quality clone in your display, what conclusion will the public come to? Obviously, they will think it's real and that goes against the grains here and other enthusiast sites.

It should be noted that you have been approached by members at car shows in the past and when they talked to you about the car, you never mentioned once that it was a fake. Not good in my books because this shows your true intent rather than the words you write here.

Just tone down on the "I saved Yenko.net members" thing as well as disclose in all of your paperwork that the car is a clone and we'll all be able to have a few brewskis together https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wagonman,

Let me UP your intellectual capability a little…

There’s no need to be locked out if you just STOP posting! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


you don't understand...........


http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q...enkoAddict.jpg

off the wagon? really no pun intended...

[/ QUOTE ]

Kids that read comic books do not get any alcohol, only kool-aid is being served today. Please lets act like adults and squash this thread/stop the name calling.. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Thank you, Paul.
Now, can we go back to bashing BJ? Any word from them about this debacle?

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you, Paul.
Now, can we go back to bashing BJ? Any word from them about this debacle?

[/ QUOTE ]
Or any word from anyone else?
we were talking about a red car, right?

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

or was it green?

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Boy has this thread taken on a life of it's own !! Does anyone know who the builder of the Rally Green Camaro is ? I believe I saw him that day coming over to Ron to shake his hand. He's also up on stage during the selling of the car,...kinda a big guy , +/- 5-10 ,+/- 220 lbs ,in a black/white bowling shirt, blondish hair,.... It might be good to know which shop the car came from, just so any potential future buyer's have a bit of a heads up on what kind of work they do ??? Kinda like the Oregon Guy.......

[/ QUOTE ]

he has a website here:

http://independentcustoms.com/contents01.htm

here he is:

http://independentcustoms.com/kent1.htm


[/ QUOTE ]

unable to edit previous post for some reason ...

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Interesting...

From: http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=4432.75

Here is some info that comes from a very reliable source.
The car did have a law enforcement vin#verifaction of all vin#s when it arrived at the resto shop before any work was done.
All previous owners were contacted prior to restoration including garys ex-wife.
Certification was done by Jerry without frontend on car and nothing was flagged.
There are over 1000 photos of the restoration.
There is a criminal investigation on-going requested by all parties involved.
There is registration that all parties have that proves the car was registered 2 -3 years after gary allegedly buried it.
clue, Pretty green car=money,greed,envy,jail

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

The facts preceeding the resto sound almost too amazing for a car that supposedly has no reason anyway?.
It'll be interesting to see where this all goes next?.

Sorry if I helped loosen the wheel on the Wagon..
No need to comment on the foolishness further to what's already been posted by others..
Thanks anyway for the 'friendly' PM Wagonmaster..

~ 'PUNK AYE' Pete
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/laugh.gif

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting...

From: http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=4432.75

Here is some info that comes from a very reliable source.
The car did have a law enforcement vin#verifaction of all vin#s when it arrived at the resto shop before any work was done.
All previous owners were contacted prior to restoration including garys ex-wife.
Certification was done by Jerry without frontend on car and nothing was flagged.
There are over 1000 photos of the restoration.
There is a criminal investigation on-going requested by all parties involved.
There is registration that all parties have that proves the car was registered 2 -3 years after gary allegedly buried it.
clue, Pretty green car=money,greed,envy,jail

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, real interesting since the poster "Rockstar" has no contact info and has a blocked email address. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif

The fact that a car is "registered 2-3 years after Gary allegedly buired it" means nothing. That's just DMV paperwork. I know here in NJ you can sell a car and if you dont physically turn in the plates and cancel the registration, you will still get renewals every year...pay them and the car is still registered. Better yet, the QQ tags for classic cars are good forever with no renewals.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Many years ago I bought a '68 SS Chevelle convertible. For model the ownership had "ELL" because there wasn't enough space for the full word. Just on my word the lady changed the new ownership to SS396. This reflected the actual model name. However, a schemer could have had some fun when changes were this easy.
I bet Bob doesn't ask if anyone is going to Las Vegas again. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Too Funny Keith !!!! This turned into quite a good read !

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

It's getting to be an even better read over on Team Camaro!!

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's getting to be an even better read over on Team Camaro!!

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=4432.105

.....and now it is clear that no one is safe from a rebody or restamp. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

The picture of the firewall VIN stamp section, that was supposedly sold, showed a piece that wasn't all that big. If you strip the paint around the heater box area, I'm pretty sure you will see the different coloration of the metal where the welding was done....if it was done. There are lots of body men that can make the weld so smooth that it is invisible with the paint on. Sounds like all these fancy documents of authenticity that have been sold aren't worth the paper they are printed on. Verified history and personal inspection are really the only things that count. Even then can you be sure? Sad what greed does. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/frown.gif

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

They never were safe from a rebody or restamp. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif And Jerry just had a professional write up on that site and professionaly dodge that bullit.
The whole thing smells like rotten fish.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Something to keep in mind, when looking at an appraisal/inspection report, make note of who requested it, seller or buyer. Such as with this car, a seller can dictate what is, and is not, inspected/noted. Most times a buyer will want a much more thorough exam then the seller.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

------------------------------------------------------------

From Camaro research group thread: http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?P...32.msg29172#new
--------------------
I am sure this has been a great learning experience for all of us. Like many others, but probably none of you, when I read a description for a car in the past and it said that the car was certified and documented by Jerry M. dumb me assumed this meant that the drive train was original and there were no questions about the trim tag. It never dawned on me that he was certifying anything else or perhaps nothing at all other than he made a report on the car. It was certainly my conclusion as well as many of my experienced car friends that read the description on the green Z that a certification meant a certification when we were in Vegas for the auction. My thought was his certification was similar to the good housekeeping seal. Similar thoughts for mopars documented and inspected by Galen.

Thanks to this thread I have learned a very valuable lesson that cost me nothing. This is that a certification apparently only means that Jerry has inspected the car. Nothing more. The thread has taught me a great lesson to dig deeper and really pay attention to the report. Same goes for Galen or any other expert.

It seems to me though that when an expert inspects a car and it meets a certain criteria it only then has the right to be called certified or? If it is does not meet that criteria it should not be allowed to be called certified or ? To me that criteria should at a minimum include requirements for an original driveline which includes the block plus verification of the authenticity of the trim tag. It would be really neat if the leading experts in the industry that provide these services would take from this experience the need to create a standard explanation for what they have found that is clearly understood within the hobby.

It is similar to the claim from some Pontiac owners that their car is PHS Documented. The un-initiated would think the car was restored to the PHS specs. However, when one digs deeper through the PHS report it is not at all unusual to find that the car has been painted a different color than what it was born with, options such as A/C, Special Hurst packages, power steering, etc. has been added by the restorer. It is also kind of scary to see a yellow high hi-lighter in the seller’s pocket.

Same goes for the matching numbers claim. What exactly is matching numbers? Many of us are afraid to call even an original survivor car matching numbers for fear someone will find some obscure component that is not correct such as a wiper blade, cigarette lighter, etc. that could technically unwind a sale. Yet we continue to see re-stamped cars called matching numbers.

In the end I realize it is Buyer Beware. However, if Certifications or whatever you want to call them are to mean anything I really feel they should be based on solid criteria. Otherwise, why would anyone want to pay for a "certification" especially in light of what we have learned here? When someone that paid the expert for his services misuses the word certified or ? then they should be called out.

The car hobby is my passion. I really enjoy seeing others have that same passion. However, when one gets sucked in on some of the shady descriptions seen today and then finds out the truth it sucks the passion out of the most fervent hobbyist. With this forum and others plus some help from our experts perhaps we might be able to stop some of this abuse.

Just my 2 cents.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

I don't know for a fact, but I would think that the PHS information comes from the shipping list microfilm as does the GM of Canada info. If a person had the time, it would be interesting to follow the paper trail and talk to people to find out about some of these cars. A friend, after selling his 1968 SD 396 Beaumont in 1969, decided to track it down 35 years later. Turned out the last owner lived less than 20 miles from where he lived. Over the years the car had gone to western Canada and back. Unfortunately the car had been parted out. End of story for this one, https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/frown.gif Others have had more success. Fortunately. http://good-times.webshots.com/photo...01686729nuwJVV

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Keith,

I never tire of gazing at the original photos of your awesome CS COPO Chevelle. Wow! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/drool.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/headbang.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]

Obviously no one should condemn Jerry M. without his report being displayed..
He's not a stupid man and his concerns for this specific car also disclaimer for circumstances such as this on any car he inspects is most likey included in his report?.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jerry's Report

.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Doesn't look like there are any disclaimers in this report?

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
It didn't fool the person who inspected it. No one would have bought that car for 40K if they had seen all 3 pages of the report.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, the report says it's estimated value is 100k-120k. I see alot of minor restoration details noted, finishes/etc. but nothing in the report would indicate to me that the car itself was ever suspect...the first page seems to clarify that. I could see how a non-Camaro expert/hobbiest/collector could look at this report and feel confident he was buying a good restored car with some minor details that needed attention.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

I don't see any opinion in the report as to whether any of the components are original to the car. Interesting to note that the car apparently had the wrong transmission in it according to the report, even though it was stamped correctly. Also that the car had the wrong leaf springs in it, an odd occurrence I would think for a car containing its complete and original drive train.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Excuse me as I move past the elephant in the room but, how does it have the correct numbers matching drive train when, as I understand it the progression was:

1) "too far gone" hulk with only value being the items in #2 and seemingly destroyed by accounts
2) tags, paperwork and one hidden VIN on eBay
3) tags, paperwork and one hidden VIN on hulk on eBay (maybe original hulk)
4) correct, certified, numbers matching car at restorer's shop
5) sold at BJ as #4 to a highly respected, knowlegable collector

Next question- Could the pad stamping and brooch marks have been so good that Jerry M didn't pick them up for his report?

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Some people just flat out refuse too see the elephant in the room!!! That's obvious to me after reading all the threads here, CRG and Team Camaro. You have an obvious set of tags and paperwork sold on Ebay certified by "The Camaro" expert, who should have known better, if that's his business!! Now what comes into play here, is all the appraisals and certifications that a lot of people have paid dearly for. Are these certifications worth the paper they are written on? I'm sure there are many cars that are worthy of the certification, but which ones are they? Some refuse to believe the obvious and others just need to do their own research on any future purchase. I for one wouldn't spend 6 figures on this signature!

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

loook on the first page of jerry mc niesh report!

it say\'s

\"APPRAISAL CERTIFICATE OF AUTHENTICITY\"




I agree! how can anybody deny the car is a fake!
anybody seeing that Mc Niesh report would without any doubt think the car is real. i personally think he\\\\\\\'s now POSSIBLY liable since i dont see any disclaimers!
any he states estimated value at 100k-120k if i were the buyer such as pratt i would be highly upset at this report!

its written in favor of the car being real!

wrong tranny? why because it has a drain plug? that could have been installed,it was done back in the day.or was it a wrong casting number? omg! if it was the wrong casting number and had the correct vin stamped.this would have been a red flag any 1st grader with the knowlege would see!

I AGREE! A NUMBERS MATCHING WHITE ELEPHANT WITH A FULL CERTIFICATION FROM AN EXPERT!

NOT GOOD!

how about other cars certified by the experts? how many are real?

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Ya know im just a novice when it comes to things like this. I have been following this since the beginning and it just seems strange to me that a guy with that kind of knowledge.............???????????????????????????? ??

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Sounds like Jerrys Kids are gunna be very upset when their 3 page reports are going to be worthless or questionable?

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Posted by Jerry on CRG...

The final report states that the car has a restoration drive train!! I have photos of the stampings to show this clearly. Not even close to correct original factory stampings. The final report also states that the car showed up on Ebay Oct 2007 as a shell. What has been posted on the Net is a rough draft report that was sent to K. Waters by me during the first week of June so he would have time to finish the car AND have time to correct the issues that I flagged incorrect for the Camaro Nationals, June 20-22, 2008. The final report was mailed out to K. Waters during the later part of June. That has not been posted. It will be posted shortly. The car was inspected on June 1, 2008.

Jerry

Another note in the report:
Special Note: Gary Fitzgibbon owned car, showed up again on ebay 10/07, was in PA. Was still a shell, but it was unclear if it was the original one or not.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

The three page report that is posted on the internet which is being referred to as a "rough draft", looks exactly like the three page reports that I received from him on two cars that he inspected for me. I certainly didn't pay for rough drafts and was never given anything different. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Jacquie,

I had to do a flight change when I came to OK because Glenn was not available when I originally booked the trip so I rebooked the trip. It cost me an extra $150 and Glenn was suppose to send the balance owed but never did. That is why I never sent the final reports to you.

Jerry

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Ha !!!

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like Jerrys Kids are gunna be very upset when their 3 page reports are going to be worthless or questionable?

[/ QUOTE ]

Insted of everyone blaming Jerry why not find the dick head who welded those numbers in the car and bash him????

Im pretty sure those reports won't be worthless most guys know Jerry's reputation and value it.. That comment was pretty immature if you ask me.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

I know Jaquie pretty well and if this EXPERT is crying over a 150.00 then something is just not right!!!!! And maybe that's why he's in the mess he's in!!!!

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

That reputation is down the drain! This hobby is all about honesty and integrity!!!!! Sorry, I was responding to Bowtie

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

So someone stiffs you for 150.00 and you are still going to send them the goods ? LOL.... yeah right.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

704ever,

I am not in any mess. And if you have a problem with me or what I do for a living, I am very easy to find. Come and see me at the Camaro Nats and we can talk face to face. I am there every year. Will that work for you? Lets hear about all of your accomplishments??

Jerry

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Jerry provides a valuable service which is needed and wanted, there are too many people who will twist what has been said or written about a certain vehicle to their benefit than we can count. If this financial crisis does us the service of removing a bunch of non automotive speculators, who have profit as the only motive, from our hobby it will have done us a HUGE service.
You can continue to shoot the messengers but that isn't going to stop the problems...
Anytime there is money to be made you will find crooks. Look at Washington!

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

The problem 704ever is you trashing Jerry without even seeing the report. He says there is a final report but you choose to ignore that and continue to trash him. Why is that ? Do you have a prior grudge ?

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
So someone stiffs you for 150.00 and you are still going to send them the goods ? LOL.... yeah right.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know Charley, 150. has never changed my friend ships. Jacquie and her husband roll 6 figure cars on a yearly basis, as you probably do yourself. I wouldn't sweat a 150. from them, why should a National expert???