Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Hey Charley - I'm workin' my fingers to the bone posting all this BS and my post count isn't going anywhere. What up with that? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ouguysrock.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

This is a tough situation for any auction house. How do you offer some form of protection for the buyer when we all know there are a bunch of unscrupulous sellers/builders out there? The only possible solution might be to require some form of verification process but that might require an extended amount of time with each car for sale and a team of experts to review the car and document the key items with pictures, etc. That doesn't seem realistic when you look at the number of auctions available to take your car to. Aside from that, maybe there should be some time period after the auction to allow a followup inspection by the auction house(to make sure the buyer didn't do anything to the car) before allowing the full exchange of funds and vehicle. This still doesn't seem very realistic based on the numbers of sellers/buyers/cars. I've never been to an auction so I can't even offer a real point of view but I think this subject needs to be addressed soon. I just can't imagine how you would allow a potential buyer to inspect hidden VIN's before any bidding. And I don't think the problem is GM specific, even the Fords and Mopars with the engine code in the VIN are being messed with. That's my 2 cents if it's even worth that nowadays.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

My feeling has always been that the auction house is not responsible for a sellers' intentionally or unintentionally misrepresenting a car. However it would be a great policy for the auction house to expeditiously remediate this unjustice on the buyers behalf (buyers' feel more comfortable). Next if a punishment could be imposed by the auction house to deter offenders such as banning and prosecution if warranted(Crooks might think twice about using your venue to dump bogus cars). Finally it would be great for buyers and added protection for the auction house if cars that have certified pedigree by NCRS or Bloomington or other judging associations gain some status/recognition. Possibly sellers with cars that have gone through such processes have reduced commissions or some type of incentive.

This is not the end all, but a start to a process that can only be good for the hobby.

Drew I appreciate your open minded approach and willingness to have a real dialog on this issue. You have turned 180 degrees in my book.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Next some will want auction companies to work on world peace!
Look, the auction's job is to bring buyers and sellers together, period. It would be nice if they could certify 400 cars three times a year but that is an impossibility. Buyers beware.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
i recently bought a 1969 silver copo 427 camaro @ russo and steele in fort lauderdale , i took it home a day or two later i got a phone call from a friend and he told me to check the car out real good because he heard or a rumor that the camaro was a re-body , i remove the cowl and found that the car was a re-body , i contacted russo and steele and they treated terrible .

[/ QUOTE ]
I would say you treated yourself terrible by not doing your homework.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
Buyers beware.

[/ QUOTE ]

When it comes down to that and only that, the auction houses will be out of business as no buyers will be willing to take the risk.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
certified pedigree by NCRS or Bloomington or other judging associations gain some status/recognition.

[/ QUOTE ] Steve,Do any of them check hidden vins etc before handing out an award?? I think the rebody problem is more prevalent and easier to pick up in camaros and metal body cars etc than it is in corvettes as there is no metal to weld in,only tag removal and replacement . The frame numbers on corvettes are usually rusted away in many cases,and a frame change doesnt constitute a rebody anyway.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Is their REALLY people here that goes to these auction house and REALLY think by chance that EVERY car is legit there ?? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif
Pleaee !! Where there is money to be made on people their is Thieves !
You want to buy a car ?? You need to talk to the owners of these cars, that are usually standing by their cars. Ask a lot of ????
Dont always go by the Paper on the window is lesson #1
Other then that Buyer Beware !!
Like Drew said: there is always some one in the house like Galen,Special ED, etc.
I see a lot of people fall victim to the EYECANDY...

Just my five cents.. inflation,no longer 2 cents

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

I want to apologize right here and now to Drew for my earlier comments instead of just sliding him a PM..
Drew, I'm sorry for my harsh words previously!.

Seeing you haven't left the table and are sticking w/ this situation and thread also considering possible solutions, it's looking more like you are in fact THE auction house that actually does give a sh!+ afterall!.

Lots of great ideas especially posting the Vins previous to the sale!.
Obviously it'd be tough to act on lone comments but if real evidence is presented or someone w/ known credibility claims a car is a rebody, what do you do then...pull the car from the sale or continue on but as an admitted rebody?.

Sure not all here will agree and you'd be losing commisions on questionable cars, but refusing outright rebody cars from your sales would certainly be a conspicuous difference to other auction houses that didn't do the same?.
And no arguing it's sometimes a blurry line between a rebody and a correctly repaired car that was perhaps rough to start with, but there is a difference in spending fortunes in time and money correctly repairing an original car to that of transfering an identity of some significance to a different vehicle...whether someone's done a good or bad job of hiding their tracks or not..

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif
~ Pete

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

WAIT A MINUTE..., Why is it so hard for everyone to figure out who is responsible for misrepresenting the cars that are sold at auction?

Before everyone starts screaming, I'm going to post the definition of MISREPRESENT, so others don't twist this into something it's not. Lets not go off into every direction with different scenarios on how cars are not what a buyers expected. LETS STICK WITH MISREPRESENT.


—Synonyms Misrepresent, distort, falsify, belie share the sense of presenting information in a way that does not accord with the truth. Misrepresent usually involves a deliberate intention to deceive, either for profit or advantage: The dealer misrepresented the condition of the car. Distort implies a purposeful twisting or emphasizing of certain statements so as to produce an inaccurate or misleading impresssion: cleverly distorting the facts to create an impression of his own innocence. Falsify suggests a tampering with or alteration of facts, records, or documents, especially with the intent to cheat or deceive: He falsified the birth records to conceal his age.

THE RESPONSIBILITY FALLS ON THE SELLER, NOT THE AUCTION HOUSE AND NOT THE BUYER. If a seller represents a car as a COPO, Yenko, ZL-1, etc., it dam well better be a real car. And PLEASE don't give me that lame excuse that some owners of high end cars don't know if it was "rebodied", or "cloned" previous to them owning it. It seems that the auction house is the way to pass rebodies, clones etc. and to say "buyer, shame on you, why did you not ask questions before you bought that car" is ridiculous.

Look at ebay, they have what's called a dispute console where you can report and resolve problems. When you open up a dispute page it says in bold type "ITEM NOT RECEIVED OR SIGNIFICANTLY NOT AS DESCRIBED PROCESS". Think about it for a minute, why would they place "significantly not as described" with "item not received"? Answer: because there is not much difference in that if the seller sent you something that was not what they advertised, it would be no different then sending you anything at all.

Anyone selling on ebay knows that misrepresenting their goods leads to being kicked off and having their account closed. IT IS THE SELLERS RESPONSIBILITY TO ACCURATELY DESCRIBE THEIR ITEMS FOR SALE.

I believe I read somewhere in this thread that the owner of this rebody was charged the commission, and rightfully so, the auction company did their job. I think that is more than fair for all parties involved. By the way, why is it the auction company responsibility to verify or inspect any vehicle? If the seller had delivered what they advertised, there would be no issue, and I'm sure the buyer would not dispute this fact. Now, if you are lame and don't know if your car was rebodied or is a clone, hire an expert before you take it to auction, therefore saving yourself time and money.

This car was listed as a real COPO with paperwork. I DO NOT SEE ANYTHING THAT SAYS IT WAS A BEBODY, and to say the seller had no clue, is no excuse, and needs to take responsibility.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
certified pedigree by NCRS or Bloomington or other judging associations gain some status/recognition.

[/ QUOTE ] Steve,Do any of them check hidden vins etc before handing out an award?? I think the rebody problem is more prevalent and easier to pick up in camaros and metal body cars etc than it is in corvettes as there is no metal to weld in,only tag removal and replacement . The frame numbers on corvettes are usually rusted away in many cases,and a frame change doesnt constitute a rebody anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used two corvette judging programs as examples only. My point was usually cars that have questionable pedigree stay away from recognized judging/certifiers. Also if the hidden VINS were installed correctly(illegally) on a rebody, it would be almost impossible to tell without stripping the paint off and examining very closely. However there are a myriad of misrepresentations that are easily detected.

I will tell you several years ago we had a car an orange L89 convert that wanted to enter our program. During our prequalification process I did a little searching regarding the cars history. Yes this was the very low mileage orig paint car. I was able to track down I believe the second owner and found the car was originally a 327 210hp , powerglide car. The second owner built it as a clone(I confirmed this with the restorer) and sold it as a clone. When he sold the car he protected himself by having the buyer of the clone sign a document stating the cars status as a clone. Ultimately this car was rejected by our program. Somehow during subsequent ownership it became a REAL car and became fully documented and interestingly one of the posters in this thread might own it.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

-----The buyer removed the cowl panel and significantly damaged it when removing the wiper blades??? Presumably, the buyer didnt know "for sure" when he removed the cowl panel that there had been any alterations. That came after the removal. Why wasnt the buyer more careful and why is it Drews or the sellers responsibility to repair the damage??? Rebody or not the car has value and it sounds as if the buyer just tore into the car, willfully damaging it.........Bill S

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

I don't think the point of this is that the seller is not responsible, HE IS, and it should bite him regardless of what he claims he know and when.

The point should be a proactive approach to solving the problem of a growing perception that the auction is not a place where one can buy with confidence. Look at ebay for example, look at like items one sold by a seller with 1000 positives and no negatives vs a seller with no history or a large percentage of negatives and see who captures the bids and the higher sale price. The problem IMHO moving into the future is perception and the steps which could be taken to stop the erosion of public confidence in the process. Lets not forget that from strictly a business standpoint in order for the car hobby/business to continue to flourish the client base needs to expand at a certain rate. In order to do this new less experienced people will need to come on board. So these new clients need to have confidence that the hobby/industry has credibility, especially at the dollars prime examples demand.

So where do we go form here? How does the auction house keep business and gain business is the ultimate question. The one way IMO that they will loose business is if the perception, REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE REAL TRUTH IS, continues to follow the path which I feel it is heading down. As more stories surface with buyers trying to throw blame ever where but on them selves the water gets pretty muddy and negative perception, right or wrong, comes a long with it.

It is a tough job to put all the things together and pull off a great event. I give the auction guys a ton of credit and with the liability issues in our all to sue happy society I can surely relate to the concerns stated above.

Being proactive may pay a larger dividend in the long run.

Just my opinion.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

A friend of mine (Tom Williams) made a statement to me a few years ago. He said, "You buy REAL cars, from REAL people". There are plenty of cars available in just about any configuration, take your time and buy one from a REAL person. Most Serious car guys will let you do any type of investigation you want with a small refundable deposit, if the car is not represented correctly. If you are not doing business with this type of seller you need to move on. You are playing Russian roulette trying to buy a high dollar car in a high pressure situation. Looks like it's time to renew my membership. Thanks for the best site on the net SYC. Mark

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

yeah lowmile that may be so. However, this hobby is dynamic-- People move, sell, die off, etc., and the cars find their way back out into the world in a myriad of different ways.

My personal feeling is that I don't think you can stop it. Period, end of story. These cars are too numerous. Mass-produced, modular builds-- One right after the other. Same body as a base V-8 houses an aluminum 427. Used cars that became give-aways for a long time that turned into investments in portfolios. Now every X44 that is unearthed for a given time spread has the potential of being a COPO. And in the right skilled hands, that junkyard find with the right heater box, engine mounts, and hole in the firewall theoretically is a COPO. Kinda crazy if you ask me, as I'm stupid, and I could pull this COPO fix-up off over a weekend with the right old parts laying around.

The NCRS is a great example of the machine being bigger than the man. Specifically (and I guess this is open for debate as well), in no one marque is numbers-fluffing more rampantly spread than the Corvettes, and the NCRS finally had to adopt re-stamps and switch-a-roos as part of the hobby.

Anywhere there's the potential of money to be made, this is what happens. And it's not Drew's fault. Just the way it is my friends...

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
yeah lowmile that may be so. However, this hobby is dynamic-- People move, sell, die off, etc., and the cars find their way back out into the world in a myriad of different ways.



My personal feeling is that I don't think you can stop it. Period, end of story. These cars are too numerous. Mass-produced, modular builds-- One right after the other. Same body as a base V-8 houses an aluminum 427. Used cars that became give-aways for a long time that turned into investments in portfolios. Now every X44 that is unearthed for a given time spread has the potential of being a COPO. And in the right skilled hands, that junkyard find with the right heater box, engine mounts, and hole in the firewall theoretically is a COPO. Kinda crazy if you ask me, as I'm stupid, and I could pull this COPO fix-up off over a weekend with the right old parts laying around.

The NCRS is a great example of the machine being bigger than the man. Specifically (and I guess this is open for debate as well), in no one marque is numbers-fluffing more rampantly spread than the Corvettes, and the NCRS finally had to adopt re-stamps and switch-a-roos as part of the hobby.

Anywhere there's the potential of money to be made, this is what happens. And it's not Drew's fault. Just the way it is my friends...

[/ QUOTE ]

No one is saying its Drews fault period. We are having a dialog attempting to reduce bogus cars from becoming the status quo. He has an interest in this regard, by protect his business and clients when possible.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Carl you are right... A person's Perception (right or wrong) is their reality and anything a sales venue can do to instill more confidence in the buyers decisions will only enhance the prices and completed sales.
I do not know where this is all going to end, but I beleive that some serious monetary penalties (full commissions both ways plus a penalty of a % of the hammer price) assesed against sellers would do alot to curb this crap.
I also believe that if someone is selling a car they are responsible for correctly representing it, or if they do not have the expertise, finding someone who can correctly represent it.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Can we all bow our heads in a moment of sympathy for PhilS. He called awhile ago just pissed because he had just spent about a half hour typing a post containing all he knew about the RS COPO but when he hit "post" it said something like "can't continue" He hit the back button and it all was gone. This is the second time . The first time was the other night when he tried to do it under "quick reply".......

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

ooo https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/frown.gif I feel his pain. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif Hang in there Brother.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Been there done that. I am wondering what Pete (the buyer)would do if he was the seller? What would he do to make this right?
Mark Sheppard

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

been there Phil it blows and in the PM's to, I learned if its going to be a doosy, I do it in word and click and paste just in case of the snafu, saves on blown blood vessles and smashed pc's https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Has happened to me a few times as well... I also learned to at least right click, drag, and copy the post before I hit the continue button.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
been there Phil it blows and in the PM's to, I learned if its going to be a doosy, I do it in word and click and paste just in case of the snafu, saves on blown blood vessles and smashed pc's https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

And there you go...it only had to happen once to me before I started to do what Bud is suggesting as well.

PhilS...my head is bowed...and I feel your pain! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Never happened to me...you people are geeks

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...elairSucks.gif
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gifI knew I would use this at some point

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
Never happened to me...you people are geeks

[/ QUOTE ] cMON, BELAIR you mean to tell me you never had a site glitch while changing other members profiles before? Oh, i almost forgot to tell you you are the coolest person I ever met in my life and I worship you. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...elairSucks.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...elairSucks.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...elairSucks.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...elairSucks.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...elairSucks.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...elairSucks.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Nope...never.. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/Charley.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

"Oh, i almost forgot to tell you you are the coolest person I ever met in my life and I worship you."

Edited by Belair62 (04/29/08 11:32 PM)
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Good thing you CANT change my post without it showing Belair62 as being the one who edited it. You gotta work on that.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
Good--- thing you CANT change my post without it showing Belair62 as being the one who edited it. You gotta work on that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
Good thing you CANT change my post without it showing Belair62 as being the one who edited it. You gotta work on that. But I truly do think you are the coolest guy alive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aww shucks https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

This has been one of most informative and revealing threads I've seen. This forum is amazing.

One thing that I think would be a step in the right direction is if the Auction House required a signed disclose statement from the seller with question such as:

--------------------------------

Do you certify that your consignent has the original factory installed numbers correct engine, transmission, and rear end?

If no, list major driveline components that you certify ARE original factory installed (e.g. block, heads, transmission, rear end housing,etc).

Do you certify that your consignent has the original factory body and interior?

If no, list major body and interior components that you certify ARE original factory installed, (e.g. glass, seats cover, headliner, door panels, sheet metal, floor panels, frame, paint, wheels, etc.)?

Do you certify that the miles shown on the odometer are correct for your consignment?

Do you certify that your consignment is free of material hidden defects?

If no, list material hidden defects that you are aware of (e.g. restamped engine, rebody, partial rebody, previous crash damage, corrosion, etc.).

Do you certify that all documentation supplied with your consignment is factory original?

If not, list all documentation that you certify ARE factory original (e.g. window sticker, build sheet, etc.).

-----------------------------

I'm sure there's a lot better way to word a disclose statement than I just reeled off, but why can't the Auction House get a little more "seller skin" in the came. I would think that honest sellers with great cars would get higher bids on a car that they certify the components that are original and authentic.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

I see you learned how to check the "not show post edited" box,boy i have to learn to not give you clues. You are a wonderful little gnome. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

This is a little late but here goes. I bought this car in about '95 from Frank Macri of Toronto. I flew there and examined the car myself. Frank showed me pictures of supposedly this car during resto. Quarters were replaced, the decklid was sprung correctly for spoiler, a dated BE was present, correct leafs which had been heated and bent to lower the car, plate for exhaust hanger present, tunnel cut for auto and I think the nuts were there for the console, I think the firewall was for an auto also, the numbers were there on the cowl, wrong trans, wrong engine was a 2 bolt 512 which was vin stamped on the pad, carb was right, so was dist, intake, aircleaner unit and more. The trim tag looked right and was the correct info for this car. The resto was mediocre but it was a very rare car and could be bought for less than a resto at that time. I had another COPO needing resto but wanted one to enjoy at the time. Frank explained that the reason the quarters were replaced was because of damage related to drag racing and that the car was not rusty.
I finished my other COPO in about '03 and decided to sell the silver car. When Mark made me aware of the stories about this car I immediately took it off the market and tried to reach Frank Macri. I left messages with no response but finally caught him one day. He claimed that he was not the Frank Macri I was looking for and that he knew nothing of any Camaro. Maybe there are two Frank Macris in Toronto. At that point I decided to just sell the car as a car with stories and that is how I represented it. It was priced accordingly.
I don't think that it has been proved that this car is a rebody. It may very well be but more investigation is needed. Only Frank Macri knows all the truth and if any real wrong has been done it was done by him.

Thanks

Phil Silva 972-345-9604

PS If you know Frank please give him my number, I'd really like to talk to him.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Unfortunately ALL auction companies hide behind the vail of we present the cars and it's up to you to determine the authenticity which is extremely tough given the circumstances of the auction environment. They all do more harm than good in falsely inflating prices and "representing" real cars but when you get stuck "oh well you should have been more careful". I quickly learned that these auctions are not the place to buy true top shelf cars because it falls back on being a business first and not the advocate someone who's spending 250k to 500k on a car needs.

I wish you luck, but having looked at all their contracts thoroughly I feel you may be throwing more bad money at an already bad event.

Steve

70 LS6 Chevelle
69 COPO Coupe
68 Shelby KR Convert
68 Shelby KR fastback

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]

I don't think that it has been proved that this car is a rebody. It may very well be but more investigation is needed.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks Phil, We have to give Mr. Macri the benefit of the doubt, because there is no proof, and so far its been hearsay.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

$20 and the VIN will get you the vehicle history going back 25 years in Ontario. Why not talk to the owner prior to Mr. Macri and find out the real condition and history of the car?

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Just curious, but when you heard of the "stories" regarding the car...did you check any of the hidden VINs?

That may have helped many people along the way as this car has been passed along with no one apparently "doing thier diligence" as was suggested the buyer at R&S should have done? Not being critical.....and I do understand that hindsight is 20/20.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

When I discussed the car with Phil he did tell me he found evidence of welding around the firewall vin areas. The car was priced accordingly by Phil when he sold it. It is unfortunate that anyone should unknowingly buy a car with potentially serious issues such as rebody/vin swapping. Most of these issues are not obvious and depending on the restoration level some may be totally undetectable.
Mark Bulaw

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

re body , clone, non original motor trans its all the same old sh** ,auction cars are auction cars and collectibles are collectibles . If you buy a car at a auction then pay up and don't be a cry baby because you did not know about the car and go posting to the world just how dumb you are . Be a man and go talk to the auction company in person and if you don't get justice in you eyes the go hire another crook oops I meant a lawyer to settle your case. Sure everyone wants to make money on every deal they make but that is just impossible .Take the good with the bad and go on. How would you folks like it if every time you bought a car at a bargain the person that sold it to you came on here crying and announcing to the world how you cheated them out of there worthless 10k car last week that you now want 50k for it ? Just read this and think about it for a while!