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I've heard of blueprinting but have'nt had it explain to me.What does a guy do to an engine when he blueprints it?

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[ QUOTE ]
My point is that for the first 10 years of the stock drags, there were only a couple of cars running in the 12's, and we used to ask, "Where are the Chevys? Where are the LS6's, Yenkos, RAIV's, and W-30's?" It seemed to be all 440's and Hemis, Stage 1 Buicks, and your occasional 68 Firebird RAII or 455HO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now we all ask "where are all the FoMoCo cars"? Lol!! There for a bit, Stefina's '64 427/425hp Mercury Marauder was the quickest FoMoCo offering running low 13s in a 4300 pound car!

I hope some of the guys here don't confuse Pure Stock with the Stock Appearing/FAST cars that also run on Polyglass & through exhaust manifolds. Whereas the Pure Stock cars are limited to the factory specs, the SA/FAST cars can go hog wild and port, hone, lighten, whatever 500+ cube engine they want, as long as it "looks stock". I might add that they're very good at it, as they're now going 11.0s at 130 mph!

gtaa9: blueprinting is basically putting tolerances & specs at a certain predetermined number, which in the case of our "Pure Stock" cars are the factory specs.

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I had a 70 judge RAIV car that weighed 3856 lbs at the track and with a set of headers[open] and a curved distributer and jetting the original Q-jet ran a best time of 11,98 @ 118 mph! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif all documented at capital raceway in maryland back in 1973. The car started out in the high 14's because it just would not hook with the polyglas tires. The original owner really knew what he was doing with that car! He gave me a book with all the time slips and everything he did to it to run the way it did! I had to sell the car 5 years ago due to personal reasons but i am so sorry I did. I really wish i had it back. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/frown.gif

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Sounds like a very good E.T. Don. Those Pontiacs may not rev like a Chevy.....but the torque https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif Should of kept it, but I know what you were going through back then. You are the man Don! Sam

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Don, are you saying that car ran 11.98 on polyglas in 1973??

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Gonzo is right on saying that 12.9-13.1 for RA4 A bodies is right. I had planned on certifying my 69 RA4 GTO,but did not get it done until Tues before the race. This car is done to nhra spec,absolutely zero porting,and a factory camshaft,not a nhra legal cam,but a factory cam(DOG BELOW 3000 RPM),best et first time out13.11 at 111.00.This is what a nhra blueprinted 4 will go with a 4-speed.Not nearly as quick as LS-6.I think that an automatic could run 12.7,s in pure stock condition in a GTO. Mino has consistantly always ran good when the Chevs were not.Bottom line is that the Pontiacs with a RA 4 will run almost dead even with an LS-6,Which was rated 80 horsepower stronger,and had 54 cubic inches more!!!Why couldn,t Pontiac have built a 455 cid,11.1,Ram Air 4 engine in a 70 GTO????? That would have been sweet!

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Hey John! Am I gonna get to see you guys at some more races this year? Missed ya at a couple events, but I know y'all were busy. Got any new projects? That '67 sure runs HARD!

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Sorry Mike,I forgot to mention that he put on 9 inch goodyear slicks. [d-5]compound! The logbook the guy kept on the car was incredible. He monitered everything from barometric pressure to the heat of the track every time he went out! Airbags in the rear springs [8lbs on the left 15lbs on the right].LAUNCHED IT AT 6000 AND SHIFTED IT AT 6400 BECAUSE HE SAID IT MADE NO MORE HORSEPOWER AFTER THAT] AND THE CAR STILL HAS THE ORIGINAL BLOCK IN IT TODAY. The car ran a miserable 1480's on the polyglas tires. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

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That makes sense Don. I have an idea how the Knafel Judge was built, and, the times it ran, so, an 11.98 sounded pretty stout.

Welcome to John Glasgo.

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Here's some cool Pontiac stuff from the Royal Pontiac Club of America's current newsletter.

Apparently some one arranged for a Royal team to go out and test some grinds in a 67 GTO, Milt oversaw and Dave and Sid Warren wrenched. I was a little surprised at the figures attained after averaging a series of runs.

http://www.azalea.net/~steved/cama.jpg
http://www.azalea.net/~steved/camb.jpg
http://www.azalea.net/~steved/camc.jpg
http://www.azalea.net/~steved/camd.jpg

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ANDY M sent me some cool magazines, this was in one of them:
http://www.azalea.net/~steved/crossram.jpg

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From Andy again:

http://www.azalea.net/~steved/dyno.jpg
http://www.azalea.net/~steved/dynob.jpg

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"Bottom line is that the Pontiacs with a RA 4 will run almost dead even with an LS-6,Which was rated 80 horsepower stronger,and had 54 cubic inches more!!!Why couldn,t Pontiac have built a 455 cid,11.1,Ram Air 4 engine in a 70 GTO????? That would have been sweet"


BINGO, Thank You. John

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I'll tell you why, it's because the idiots at GM wouldn't let John Delorean spread his wings. GM has always held back Pontiac.

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I agree Chevrolet was always considered, the favored division, this is why Pontiac had lots of difficulty, with stuff they wanted to build and cars they wanted produced. They even promoted Delorean to get him to help the other divisions, even though he was NOT very well liked.

Well nothing we can do about it now. I think it has been shown that Pontiac built some of the coolest and fastest street machines of the day. Without the 64' Pontiac GTO sneaking in under the radar, we all might have been driving 289 Mustangs,6 cyl Chevy II's or worse yet Valiants.

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289 https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif

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[ QUOTE ]
I'll tell you why, it's because the idiots at GM wouldn't let John Delorean spread his wings. GM has always held back Pontiac.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, there were several reasons that a 455 RAIV wasn't built in 1970. The engineering department had a great deal invested in the RAV platform, in both the 303 and 400 versions, and development on the 455 was stifled. The cost of RAV tooling, from the rods to the heads (especially the crank), was significant. In truth, both the engineers and DeLorean felt the 400 RAIV was enough, and they wanted to concentrate on the RAV, the just introduced 69 Trans Am, 69 Judge, the new developement of the 1970 Firebirds, and especially the 69 Grand Prix, the car DeLorean was most fond of. The 455, with standard d-port heads, steel intake, and mild cam, would be used for torque to push the GP and their full-sized cars, and an option for the GTO.

Then in early 1970, the unthinkable happened. John DeLorean was promoted to General Manager of Chevrolet. Pete McDonald took over for DeLorean, and all of the back-door methods that DeLorean employed to get things done came to an immediate halt. Red tape and new emissions requirements were already on the table for 1971, and the new upper management wondered why they would release a RAV tunnel port engine when they already had the 455 in their arsenal. The RAV project was immediately terminated. In order to offset the costs of the RAV project as well as the tooling for the RAIV, the Pontiac Engineers continued work on a low compresion version of the RAIV for 1971, using the RAIV heads and intake as a platform (this became the 455 H.O.). 1970 was a turbulent year at Pontiac. The engineers used to go directly to DeLorean for approval, but now that bond was broken, and they had to communicate with bean counters.

Sidenote : There was a mule car developed by Pontiac Engineering in late 1969. It was a 69 Firebird with a 455, RAIV heads, and oddly enough, an old 66 tri-power setup (for visual impact). This proved to be a wicked combo on the street, and it saw some use on Woodward Avenue. The engineering department called it a 455 H.O., but as we know, the actual 1970 455 H.O. put into production in 1970 was more of a traditional Pontiac 455 with a few goodies added, not the fire-breathing 455 with RAIV heads and cam that the engineering department developed for their mule car.

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Orange is my favorite color, and on a 69 Firebird you just can't beat it.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

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From the 1/05 issue of MCE.
They asked Marty Schorr: "Did you ever get to sneak a peak at some interesting high performance hardware or cars that never made it into production?"

MS:"The Pontiac Ram Air V is a good example,because there were plenty of Ram Air V cars running around at the Milford proving grounds,and I drove them there."

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/frown.gif

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Oh no no no Mr. Schorr can't say that, because those cars didn't exist without PHS documentation.

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Stinkin Bean-Counters https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

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So can someone summerize as to what the order would be as to the best to the worst combo's of GTO's?

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Bingo. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

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As in fastest to slowest in just the 1970 model year? If we're just talking 1970 GTO's, then the pecking order from highest to lowest would be RAIV, 455 H.O., 400 HO (RAIII), then the 400.

On the all time GTO list, I would say the 69 RAIV 4-speed, 70 RAIV 4-speed, 67 XS Ram Air 4-speed, 71/72 455 H.O., 66 GTO tri-power 4-speed.

As for slowest all-time Goat, the rare 67-69 GTO with the 2-barrel option would probably top the list, followed by the 74 GTO, 73 GTO 400, and the 64 GTO 389 4-barrel with the 2-speed auto. Of course, certain non-performance option combos may trump some of the above.

Worst combo would have to be a loaded 68 GTO convertible, with a/c, p/w, etc., with the 2-barrel option, 2.93 non-posi, and the rare chrome bumper nose. Make mine light yellow with a white top. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif

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Steve,that is the same 303 intake I have.I have not tried it on a 400 with spacer but the thing I DO know,it WONT fit on a 303 WITHOUT the tall tachdrive dist.I will throw it on my 455 RA V and see if it will work at all.Tom

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Tom

For all I know that could be a pic of your very intake, can't imagine there were many made of that. Is it possible?

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I think there were 5-6.I have actually seen 2 diff ones,I also had and sold a RA IV short deck X ram.Tom

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StealthBird "In truth, both the engineers and DeLorean felt the 400 RAIV was enough"

Yes I have heard this story as well, and they did get unfortunately sidetracked with the RAV

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The best combo GTO is the one parked in your garage.
The worst combo is the GTO parked in someone else's garage. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif
BTW, the photos are from the old Muscle Car Review.
Andy

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I disagree that the RAIII is slower than the '70 455.

You also forgot the RAII in the equation. There are some who still believe it is faster than the RAIV.

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Granted, the 1970 RAIII and 455 are close, but I believe the 455 had the edge. There weren't very many original road tests comparing the two, but from what I have:

1970 GTO Judge(RAIII), 4-speed, 3.55 posi, 14.77 @ 94.42 mph
1970 GTO (RAIII), 4-speed, 3.90 posi, 14.60 @ 99.55 mph
1970 GTO 455, Turbo 400, 13.98 @ 101.88 mph
1970 GTO 455, 4-speed, 3.31 non-posi, 15.0 @ 96.5 mph
1970 GTO 455, Turbo 400, 3.55 posi, 14.76 @ 95.94 mph

The big difference here is that all 3 of the 455 cars tested had a/c, and the 455 car that ran 15.0 even had p/w and p/dl, and was a peg-legger. The 400 RAIII's tested were pretty standard, no a/c or other weight related problems. The 14.60 turned in by the 70 RAIII above was after an entire morning of tuning (the car ran consistent high 14's until then).

Pontiac marketed the 1970 455 as a cruiser, not a 1/4 miler, but of the 455's that were tested, even with a/c and loaded up with options, still were comparable to the RAIII.

Go figure, I forgot about the 68-1/2 RAII's. How embarrassing, one of my favorite powerplants too. Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif

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That's ok, I had a hard time shedding amyl nitrate. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

The 13-sec 455 test you have was probably in the 1970 Hi Performance Cars Yearbook. I wouldn't put much credence in this. What about the real world? I think the RAIII has a slight edge. It also was available with digger gears, while the 455 was not, I believe.

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[ QUOTE ]
The 13-sec 455 test you have was probably in the 1970 Hi Performance Cars Yearbook. I wouldn't put much credence in this. What about the real world? I think the RAIII has a slight edge. It also was available with digger gears, while the 455 was not, I believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, no steep gears for the 455, but as we know, the Pontiac 455 liked the mid 3-series gears the best.

The 13 second 455 GTO time listed above was actually from a 4 way shootout from the short lived magazine called Hot Cars. This 1970 test ran a Chevelle LS6, Stage 1 GS, 442 W-30, and a 455 GTO. The magazine ripped the GTO for being fat and overated, and they were disappointed that there wasn't a 455 RAIV from Pontiac when the other makes had stepped up their powerplants for 1970. Still, the tame 455 GTO, with a/c, was only a tenth behind the W-30 442, which had manual steering, manual brakes, and a 3.91 gear.

In the real world, I still feel the 70 455 had the edge over the RAIII, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it. It would be close enough that it would come down to drivers and tuning, even lane conditions. But I feel the extra 55 cubes, and extra torque, would put a fender or two on the RAIII.

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I have to back StealthBird on this.

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Most of the old road tests still show the RAIII having better times overall. And go to the Pure Stock races and you'll see the RAIII cars turning better times.

What were the times that all the cars turned in Hot Cars? I used to have an issue or two but they were not as interesting as Cars magazine.

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I dunno, those 55 cubes make a big difference. Not that a 400 won't run, but for raw power the 455 seems the easy winner. I say that not for what rolled off the assembly line in 1970, but what I have done at the track.

A bare stock 455 with some 350 6X heads and a medium cam, will propel most led sleds to a 12 second time. The 70 455 had a point of compression on the 6X head set up, that is just more horsepower.

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Well, I guess if the old road tests don't hold much weight, I would place the validity of the Pure Stocks races FAR lower when looking at how these cars originally stacked up to each other. The mega-buck, professionally built, flyweight rotating assembly cars we see today, with scienced-out suspensions and hundreds of hours of dyno time, are a far cry from how these cars ran in their day. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif

The differences between the 70 RAIII and 70 455 are marginal at best. Minor head differences (same flow, different cc's, similar compression), 068 cam (on M/T 455), same intake, etc. For my money, I'll go with the 55 extra cubes and more torque of the 455.

For pure power at the Pure Stocks, I'd go with a Studebaker.
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif

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the only rub IMHO is hooking up the 455s with 70 vintage tires.In a straight out drag race showroom stock with a man trans the RA III MAY have a advantage.Auto cars 50-50.With some suspension work and wide sticky tires I go with the 455.Tom

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[ QUOTE ]
I would place the validity of the Pure Stocks races FAR lower when looking at how these cars originally stacked up to each other. The mega-buck, professionally built, flyweight rotating assembly cars we see today, with scienced-out suspensions and hundreds of hours of dyno time, are a far cry from how these cars ran in their day.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't take this the wrong way, Mike, but I gotta object! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif I was the 3rd quickest car on elimination day in Stanton this fall (12.3s @ 113+) and it's built NOTHING like you describe. Our rotating assembly is the original '69 parts except for the pistons, and my pushrods are the only non-GM stuff up top. Hours of dyno time? I wish!! Trick suspension? I wouldn't exactly call a pair of leaf spring clamps "trick"! And I just took a quick peak at this fall's results...12 of the 13 quickest cars in Stanton were "Certified Stock" cars meaning they were tore down prior to the event and thoroughly measured/inspected. The only car in the top 13 this fall that wasn't "Certified Stock"...a black '68 RAII 'Bird (I believe Mino's old car). Now, I'm not insinuating anything about that car, but the other 12 cars have been torn down & documented in magazines the same as Mino's car. Believe me, when I started running our Camaro in the class in '99 I was running low 13s and said there's NO WAY any of those other cars should run quicker than that! I mean, I was in a Yenko Camaro! Needless to say, I was taught a lesson REALLY quickly! But over the years, I've learned the value of "careful assembly, careful blueprinting, and attention to detail". It actually IS important to sweat the details! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

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Rob, I think we missed 4th gear in this discussion! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif I wasn't ragging on any of the Pure Stock Certified guys, a lot of work went into those cars. I said that the way the cars run TODAY do not reflect how they ran back THEN.

Today, maximizing them through matching the chamber cc's, shimming valve springs, jetting the carb, ignition curve kits, leaf spring clamps, loosening up the sway bar bolts, factory appearing front shocks that are soft (90/10), filling your spare tire with water (my personal favorite) for more traction, high flow mufflers, 2.5" exhaust, X-pipes, K&N filters, etc., are all ways to make an old car run faster, and shows the potential of that car, but not representative of how they ran when new. I believe all of these things are legal under Certified Stock.

Since the shortblocks aren't torn down, it makes you wonder if anyone is running aluminum connecting rods, lightweight race cranks, and lightened wrist pins? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

As for dyno time, I have read in several posts both here an on the Buick V8 site where people have said "they're hitting the dyno to test their new combo." Not exactly backyard mechanics, but if you have the means, you may as well use it! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

But (and that's a big butt) I definately ain't arguing! As you know, I am a huge fan of "stealth" technology, and I think the Pure Stocks are great! My point is that the et's and speeds being generated by the Pure Stock cars today (or Certified Stock) are not representative of what these cars ran when they were new, or heck, even what these cars ran in the Pure Stocks 5 years ago!

Could you imagine a car magazine back in 1970 taking a brand new LS6 Chevelle from Chevrolet, and running 12.40's? On stock rubber? With factory closed exhaust? Or how about explaining to another car magazine that the 1970 Oldsmobile W-31 that they tested last month, which ran impressive 14.60's, somehow managed to run 12.8's today, and embarrass a whole slew of 426 Hemi cars? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif

I noticed, when reviewing the Pure Stock results, that the top two cars ran over 116 mph, and no one below them even ran 115, or 114 mph! These guys are making some serious power. But I also noticed your Yenko is 200 pounds heavier than Pete Simpson's COPO. Both cars are automatics, so how does Pete shave that much weight off a 69 Camaro? If your Yenko weighed what his car weighed, you'd be fightin' for the #1 spot!

If we should move this discussion to another thread, please let me know. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif