Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

There is a time and a place for everything - the time and the place to drive the crap out of the supercars was back when they had a reputation to establish...and now that they have their reputation they should be allowed to enjoy life in the "retirement lane"...an occasional drag pass or "carbon run" doesn't seem to hurt much as would a nice drive out on the highway. The reason there aren't as many supercars around today is because they had the snot driven out of them back in the day. My feeling is you don't have to live history to appreciate it...a little taste goes a long way....... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

i agree somewhat, but i think a person should be able to do what they want with their own cars. if they want to store them forever, run the crap out of them or trailer queen them to death it is their choice and nobody should give them a hard time about it.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

[ QUOTE ]
i agree somewhat, but i think a person should be able to do what they want with their own cars. if they want to store them forever, run the crap out of them or trailer queen them to death it is their choice and nobody should give them a hard time about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You nailed it! There are people that do all of the above and we each have our own feelings, but that shouldn't affect anyone else. I can appreciate bone stock original cars, modified restored cars, pro-touring cars, etc.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Mr Muscle

I just got off the phone with Gary, and he's a little embarrassed that your giving away his driving habits.

He also said that he checked the car today for body sealer and carpet insulation. He said it has both.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I understand where all you guys are coming from. I know I may not have as much experience as some others out there, but I do know that restoring a vintage vehicle is a lot of work. I did everything MYSELF on my camaro, minus the final coat of paint and clearcoat. I agree with you Charley, that you do have mixed emotions about beating on your car (i.e. stone chips from some gravel and sealcoat on my quarters and bottom of front fenders), but once again, IMO, cars are meant to be driven and shown off. It gives you a good feeling when you pull into a crowded football game parking lot, and everyone stares at you as you rumble past. IMO, if the car is too good to be driven, you don't deserve to own it. I hope this hasn't offended anyone.

In response to Born30YrsLate, who says those glory days are over? No car should have to suffer the feats of "retirement lane," unless you're talking about a Geo. Cars don't have the satisfaction of a retirement; fellow wrencheads forbid it. True Wrencheads want the same performance as "back in the day," and aren't afraid to use the car. A car's only true retirement comes in the form of a crusher.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

i agree with that and you are mostly correct about the retirement when it hits the crusher. even then it is giving itself up so we can all still have canned tuna. lol

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Gentlemen....TJS44 ..Tom S.. has probably forgotten more about Pontiacs than most of us even know...Tom...great to hear you chime in...you helped me out a bit on that old 63 Kimberly Blue SD car a while back...so how long have you been racing Pontiacs Tom ?

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Motown...you rode your bike to Trailer Week but....was your hair perfect !!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] and did you bring your wingtips ?

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

thanks,1962.I know enough to get by.I just know that a lot of factory "mule"car were clone cars.My 63 lemans that Tyree drove in 64-65,he still swears was a mule.I know Arlin built the factory"mlue RunningBear 63 tempest.I know that my cars are clones as I built tem.My 69 T/a is a numbers matching RAIII car I put the V in.I drive all my cars and if anyone is ever in the SoCal area they are welcome to see and drive any of them.Tom

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I have been watching this thread with great interest.I don't post much but I keep track of whats going on with this site.I really like the COPO cars and I go to the SCR reunions and never miss a Vettefest, but I am an 'eat,sleep,drink' Pontiac man. We have owned a Pontiac exclusive dealership for over 35 years. I have been a GTO fan since the begining owning Ram Air 3 ,4 and 5 along with H.O.'s and Super Duty's.
I know Jim Mattison , Jim Wangers and Milt Schornick personally along with our dealership still sponsering Arnie Beswick(he hopes to be driving again next year).
I believe without a doubt that -NO- Ram Air 5 came from the factory or through engineering.
You have to remember that in late 1969 Pontiac lost to Chevy-John Deloreon. Jim Wangers was gone from the Ad agency also. It was a time of change with James McDonald taking charge of Pontiac. He was a 'corporate guy' that followed the book. I doubt he would have jeopordized his new position to build or have engineering build 2 non-emmission certified cars for racing or to sell,no matter who the dealer was. I also don't think anyone in engineering or marketing would have put there neck out to do this and risk there future or retirement for 2 cars,especially when you had new top management that once again was used to doing things 'the GM way'.
The ' memo' has used to make the production line aware of a unique feature. I have attached an invoice to a 1968 GTO showing 'memo and memo number' along with actual build sheet verifying that memo number with the special instructions. Has a build sheet turned up for either car?.That would tell the memo mystery on these cars. The 'special equipment' charge on the invoice in my opinion could be for the special sound deadener delete and lack of underlying carpet insulation and no body sealer.I believe in an earlier post Micky Hale confirmed these features on Mike's car. In 1970 there was no regular RPO(regular production number) for this feature. This would have required a memo for assembly line workers to make these changes.
As far as the 2 cars,from the build sheets posted they have consecutive dealer order numbers. That would tell me that Knafel was possibly planning to race both cars(auto and 4-speed). Mike's(sixties muscle) car also could not have been an advertising car that Knafel received for a 'good deal' because of that same dealer order number and the fact it shows the dealer would have received his'holdback' carry over allowance money for a 'new- car. Any company car,press car or brass hat car from the factory for reduced prices would not have ' holdback' and also show milage when taken out of service on the actual invoice.
I have attached a small piece from the November 1970 'Car Craft' magazine featuring an article on the Knafel race car 1970 Judge (Mike's car). It clearly states the car was built -without- the use of Ram Air 5 pieces,and this magazine was from when the car was new. I would believe that to be also true of the sold silver Judge.
Mike(sixtiesmuscle),I agree that there was a -LOT- of resentment from Knafel towards Jim Wangers and especially Royal Pontiac for all the press they received. Royal was the number #1 Pontiac performance image dealer in that time. Nobody was even a close second to them.I have met Bill Knafel on several occasions and have found him to be a great person. However,I have heard some of his stories that have raised the eyebrows of a lot of very knowledgeable Pontiac people.
Sorry for the long post. have never tried to attach pictures but here goes...

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Bob, excellent post [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

I hope you get the article and sheet up!

The silver Judge did have sealer and insullation, so the answer to special equipment and memo lies elsewhere in this vehicle.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Thanks Bob. Great information. See you next week at Vettefest. Mike

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Hey Bob good to hear from you! I knew that you would add to this eventually. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Dajudge

Yes I think Bill Knafel has more integrity in the Pontiac arena than Jim M.

It is a fact that Bill was a forerunner in the developement of drag racing. Without people like Bill, and the person behind Royal, and the people behind other racing teams we would not have the mega sport as it is today. This does not take away from any single drag racing superstar, there is merit in people like Bill he gave drag racing a back bone. Just so happens that Pontiac was Bill's vehicle. I promise you Bill ran into more obstacles than you can imagine, it's always like that when your on the cutting edge.

For those of you that haven't seen this page about Bill, take a look please: History of The Tin Indian

Jim M. worked for Chevy, and anything he has to say about his knowledge of Chevy from his working expeirence I have no problem with. As for Pontiacs, he has a key to the Pontiac archive room. That is a great blessing indeed, but that does not make him the Pontiac expert. He is now a very valuable tool to the Pontiac enthusiast looking for historical data. Thank you Pontiac for allowing it, and Jim M for what he does do. Something is better than nothing.

Jim wrote me an email a month ago stating he would help me shout from the roof tops if this car was real, next thing I heard from Jim is this one sentence post in this forum. So I'm a little confused at just what it is you've done Jim? Did you come up with some documentation that you haven't told anyone about? Did you even try? Does GM not want you to release something?

Jim, help me to understand why I should believe in you like so many others do.

Now you understand why Bill has my integrity vote?

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

that is one really cool link. if you go to the goatfinders page and do a search on knafel, it will surprise you how much info he has on him

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

-----No offense Steved,but I have just lost interest in anything you have to say...........Bill S

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

It's not really about integrity, it's about documentation vs memory, and I know my memory isn't good enough to remember details from last year let alone 20+ years ago.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

No offense taken Bill.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Jeff

Documentation is what I want, which ever way it goes.

Jim M offered to help just over a month ago with this very car, and some how that transferred into an unsupported statement in this forum. If he has something to back it up, please Jim tell us! Otherwise he needs to clarify it's just another opinion, especially since so many people hold him in high regard.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Jeff you are right it is about documentation and not memory or hear say. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img] That is all I have been saying. And I will say it again that these two cars are great cars no matter what. This is a great website keep up the good work guys.

Mike [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

After reading all of these posts, I have to interject. Steved, I can say absolutely Knafel did not receive a factory RA V car. He did get some engines, though. I am not trying to cut the guy down here as he did do a lot in promoting Pontiacs, HOWEVER,
Since his son started trying to make a profit off of the name a few inconsistencies have been popping up.
1) I am sure Bill or his son said they got some RA V cars. Remember by late 69 he was starting to limit his racing.
2) The only one that stated Running Bear was the GTO prototype is Knafel himself?? Do you really think Bill was the only one to think of this?? The car was not even a factory A/fx car!
3) Bill Knafel even promoted Tims car as the original Running Bear until Tim refused to sign a
Statement giving Bill $$ whenever he show's the car. Bill now says he does not think it is the original car??
4) I was also just told he has also recently sent a similar letter to Green stating he wants 40% of the selling price if sold! Let us see if he starts denying the 66 GTO is the original car!!

So INTEGRITY??

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

do you know how foolish you sound when you say that you can absolutely say something about something you were never around. you guys kill me with this back and forth stuff. all i know is knafel has more record holding cars than anyone else (especially royal pontiac). go to knafels website that steved posted and look at the magnum 4oo detail sheet and it even says that they will put a ra v in one for you. there was also a picture of a ra 5 engine on a stand in their dealership in the goatfinder a while back. look at knafels 68 advertisement of the ra 2 engines. with less than 275 total ra 2 cars ever built, i wander how many dealers took out full page ads like that. if anyone could have got one, it would have been knafel. i dont think very many people have a clue as to what this guy was all about. i myself didnt until this post started and i started searching the web for things on him and went back and pulled several old magazines articles and it is truely amazing. what amazes me more is how quiet all this has been. until you start realizing what sixtiesmuscle commented on and then see who is doing all the writing about history in the last few years. i personally am starting to doubt alot about what jim wangers has been telling. possibly he is the one out still trying to make a living on his past and it is funny that he never mentions knafels name. but what i am finding out, i wouldnt either if i had been beaten all but maybe once or twice in his (royals) career. the truth is what we as enthusiast deserve and if this sight keeps going, we are obviously going to find out alot more. remember what opinions are like and everybody has one.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Great discussion [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]...Here is a neat Knafel piece of dealer memerobilia.I believe it is a little earlier (63-64?)than the RA V but neat none the less...

Steve

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

GTOguy..I would be interested in seeing the letter to Green or the details.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I have been reading all your posts with interest. Just have a few comments. I do hope the RAV Judge turns out to be a factory/engineering installed piece. Back in 69 Pontiac had all it could do to keep the RAIV engines running in the cars. Many,many were blown up. John Sawruk said that they had storage buildings full of blown up RAIV's. That is why there are so few original cars left and that is why there are soo many SR blocks floating around. With all that warranty work going on I doubt that engineering would have been seriously testing any RAV combinations. They were busy trying to keep the RAIV's together. But that could also be how Knafel got a factory built GTO with a RAV. Knafel could continue testing the RAV while engineering worked on RAIV warranty issues as well as the 455HO and SD stuff. Also contrary to popular belief all pontiac engine blocks did not get the VIN stamped on them. Most did but I have seen many that did not. Just my 2 cents worth.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

GTOguy

I have no idea who Tim, Green, or you are; so your wasting your time addressing me with those questions.

It does sound like your a little sour about something, but I can't help you.

Steve

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I have a never say never story. This has no reference to the GTO in question, but it is a GM oddity. I have a friend of 30 years who is retired from GM, he worked at the GM proving grounds in Milford Mi. He owns to this day a 66 or 67 Corvette roadster which he obtained from the proving grounds, the car has a big block in which the engine had been assembled on a subcontract basis from a company called Diamond Elkin engineering, this was a Gm test car never meant to leave the confines of GM, but somehow this car still sits in my friends garage. Exactly as assembled by Gm with that test engine it is a honest 10 second quarter mile car. Is the car part of documented history? I highly doubt that fact. How many know of this car? Very few. Does he have documentation to prove it's origin? I highly doubt that also. But, I was there the day he brought the car home from the proving grounds, it remains untouched to this day. Is the Pontiac in question the same situation? I wouldnt think it would have existed all these years without that knowledge coming to light as with this particular Corvette. Can either be documented as fact? Very doubtful. Never say never? Who knows what went on back then. Although some who know of each car may be convinced of their authenticity, without factual evidence to support the origins they become an urban legend. At the same time they are both significant parts of muscle car history even lacking documentation, in which both are best left to hold their place in history for what they are, both important in their own right even without factual proof. Some questions and riddles are left never to be solved.
Thanks,
Motown [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

i agre completely and totally believe that. there are too many experiemental cars that exist in private collectors hands that were supposedly never ment to leave gm's control. i am continually searching now for more knafel info (and am blown away by what i am finding) and cant believe that the pontiac collectors have not jumped on this years ago. this guys cars should be sought after like any grumpy jenkins, motion or yenko car is. why has it been kept so quiet for so long????? any answers???

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

GTOguy & gtoguru, who are you??? Please fill out your profiles, or, at least let us know your names.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Mowtown are you saying there was a second gunman on the grassy nole. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

It's Ironic that both sides of this Topic seem to agree on one thing,that they want to see paperwork backing the claims,one way or the other.Yet some of these people are not filling out their Member profiles.
C'mon guys,take a few minutes to show us your personal info.
Thanks.
Rick

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I had the pleasure of hearing John Sawruk speak in Stanton a couple months ago. I race Pure Stock with his son, Jeff Sawruk (350HO Tempest in the low 13s!), and he gave a VERY interesting speech on all things Poncho. He devoted a lot of effort to the SD455 part of the speech, as he was the primary engineer on that project. VERY COOL stuff, and one heck of a nice guy (his son is the same as well). I think he said he was at Pontiac for like 30 years or something?

Oh yeah, and READ THIS THREAD!

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

John Sawruk is retired from GM but still the Pontiac historian and also a consultant. I always go to see his presentations. I would think if there is any engineering documentation on these RAV cars John would be the guy to ask about it.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Sounds right...I forgot about the consultant part, as I *believe* he was involved in the '04 GTO project.

In his presentation he want over HP ratings (Net vs Gross), product testing, product development, really cool stuff, coming from someone that was there back in the day. I sent his son Jeff a note, so maybe he can stop by and help shed some light on some of this!

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Jim,

-----Wow,a Pontiac guy from a town named Shelby.What are the odds?Cant remember what part of the state Shelby is located in.Im originally from Medina/Wadsworth area and bought cars from Knafel.Matter of fact I bought a 455 72 TA that was Mrs.Knafels driver for part of that year.
-----There were probably 7 or 8 drive-ins within a 20 mile radius of Knafels.Back in the 65/68 era when we were doing a bunch of street racing it wasnt uncommon to hit em all looking for a particular car or cars we had heard were bad.The thing that has always struck me about Knafels is that they had no packages available for the street,like Bobcats.Yeah,the track history was there,but believe me,we almost never ran across troublesome Pontiacs on the street.And on the odd occasion that we did,we didnt particularly quake in our boots when we saw a Knafel dealer sticker.Believe it or not one of the main guys we would stay away from when there was money involved was a certain 65 442 from Wadsworth or maybe Barberton.Dont ask me why as he would never open the hood.But mostly big horsepower Corvettes and Mopars were the easiest to go fast on the street with.There were a bunch of both in the Knafel area.
-----Cant really say what happened from 69 on up in that area of the world as I went away to school.All this seems sort of odd nowadays as Ive become a big Pontiac fan.Of course,all this drivel has nothing to do with RAVs,but thought I might lighten things up a bit.........Bill S

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Bill S.,
Shelby is about midway between Cleveland and Columbus near Mansfield. Could be neat living in Shelby and owning a Shelby but Fords have always been BRAND X to me. Im pretty much a GM guy. Lots of Mopars and Chevrolets around here. Pontiacs were always in the minority but may be finally getting their due. The RAIV cars are going for big money on EBAY. Documentation on these cars is usually scarce other than PHS. I have the original window sticker but that is all. A Knafel RAV factory car would be huge if it could be documented. Hope it can be. I will read with interest everyones posts here as this is a great site. Jim

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Just so you guys don't think I'm totally nuts saying thatArlen Vanke said my car was the one in a promo pic, I asked Jim M. to see what he had in his files. This looks white to me, and, pretty early. I don't care one way or another, but, at least I satisfied myself that a white was used too.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Mike
Did Micky find black paint on the under side of the pedestals of the spoiler, or under the white paint?
Steve

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Its white paint on the bottom of the pedestals. They were painted off of the car best as I can see. I have Pontiac heaven here, A cool RA4 70GTO and a 70 T/A RA 4 4 sp. Hows that for Poncho muscle.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Micky

Sweet it is to have a bunch of nice Pontiacs, but if all the cars I saw on your website are in your possesion how do you decide which one to foam at the mouth each day over?

Was there no black paint under the white?

Steve