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Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
This! As I sit here with my daughter getting her dialysis done...I will offer my opinion as well.
I am blown away that there has been this many pages and posts on this car. People are expecting a polaroid picture from 40 plus years ago to be color correct now? Also, since when did the ordering dealer and the original owners word mean nothing? As was mentioned above.. People would kill to have this much documentation on their car! At this point...this has become rather foolish. Clem, thanks for coming on here to share your thoughts on your former Z28. With all due respect to all involved, experts make mistakes. That's what happened here... <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: olredalert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">----I kinda hate to post in this thread because it is getting a bit rowdy, but if we reference that original picture again, its now 46 years old. Don't you think there might be a chance that its faded or that the technology of polaroid cameras back then isn't remotely as good as what a cell phone takes today? The pic even looks faded to me. Just saying I wouldn't base anything on that picture. If the color isn't exactly EO, then it was slightly mis-mixed at the factory. Clems and the dealerships reputation are not in question here in any way.......Bill S </div></div> |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Xplantdad</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This! As I sit here with my daughter getting her dialysis done...I will offer my opinion as well.
I am blown away that there has been this many pages and posts on this car. People are expecting a polaroid picture from 40 plus years ago to be color correct now? Also, since when did the ordering dealer and the original owners word mean nothing? As was mentioned above.. People would kill to have this much documentation on their car! At this point...this has become rather foolish. Clem, thanks for coming on here to share your thoughts on your former Z28. With all due respect to all involved, experts make mistakes. That's what happened here... <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: olredalert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">----I kinda hate to post in this thread because it is getting a bit rowdy, but if we reference that original picture again, its now 46 years old. Don't you think there might be a chance that its faded or that the technology of polaroid cameras back then isn't remotely as good as what a cell phone takes today? The pic even looks faded to me. Just saying I wouldn't base anything on that picture. If the color isn't exactly EO, then it was slightly mis-mixed at the factory. Clems and the dealerships reputation are not in question here in any way.......Bill S </div></div> </div></div>this is what happens when the facts get in the way of opinions that have been $$$ makers for some people they shoot the messenger |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
I just got off the phone with the owner of what is being called "the truth" Camaro. The owner will have the car a MCACN this year for anyone who wants to see it. He has spent days cleaning the car, and told me there is NO purple primer on this car anywhere. ..BKH
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Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Xplantdad</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This! As I sit here with my daughter getting her dialysis done...I will offer my opinion as well.
I am blown away that there has been this many pages and posts on this car. People are expecting a polaroid picture from 40 plus years ago to be color correct now? Also, since when did the ordering dealer and the original owners word mean nothing? As was mentioned above.. People would kill to have this much documentation on their car! At this point...this has become rather foolish. Clem, thanks for coming on here to share your thoughts on your former Z28. With all due respect to all involved, experts make mistakes. That's what happened here... <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: olredalert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">----I kinda hate to post in this thread because it is getting a bit rowdy, but if we reference that original picture again, its now 46 years old. Don't you think there might be a chance that its faded or that the technology of polaroid cameras back then isn't remotely as good as what a cell phone takes today? The pic even looks faded to me. Just saying I wouldn't base anything on that picture. If the color isn't exactly EO, then it was slightly mis-mixed at the factory. Clems and the dealerships reputation are not in question here in any way.......Bill S </div></div></div></div> Bruce -- exactly ... as I have said in the past, that's why we put destruct buttons on missiles ... TAZ |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
To recap...
Some 40yr old paint looks Purple in recent pictures, and 40yr old pictures of Purple paint doesn't ..... BIG |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
Clem, my "Innocent" comment was in response to an earlier post whose last remark was "If it doesn't fit, you must acquit"; not at you, sir. So, are you saying that your friend had another ZL-1 Corvette that, until this point was unknown? Please, please do tell......and fill us in on your other past cars.
I think sometimes (I'm guilty also) we believe in ourselves so much that even cold, hard evidence won't make us think otherwise. Not a bad trait to have, but being strong willed also means that verifying the truth is imperative so we can form that forged opinion. Everyone here is fanatical about these cars, or we wouldn't be here in the first place, but NOT everything about these old cars is as easy as black or white, or right or wrong. I think down deep we all are honest people who believe we are right/correct and might need to take a step back and take a breath and count to 10. Can't make MCACN again this year....."Won't you let me take you on a ........Sea Cruise". |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
Fluorescent light......
Sun light ... . Incandescent light..... And time of the day ALL SHOW DIFFERENT ON EVERY COLOR..... 46 Years of age and light on a Polaroid is not the same color as it once was...... Just saying.... |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
Clem;
This whole mess is your fault. Patty wanted something closer to Plum Crazy Purple, not that pink car. If you had ordered a 1970 Plum Crazy Purple 340 6 pack Challenger we would not be having this discussion. Ed M. |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DW31S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Clem, my "Innocent" comment was in response to an earlier post whose last remark was "If it doesn't fit, you must acquit"; not at you, sir. So, are you saying that your friend had another ZL-1 Corvette that, until this point was unknown? Please, please do tell......and fill us in on your other past cars.
I think sometimes (I'm guilty also) we believe in ourselves so much that even cold, hard evidence won't make us think otherwise. Not a bad trait to have, but being strong willed also means that verifying the truth is imperative so we can form that forged opinion. Everyone here is fanatical about these cars, or we wouldn't be here in the first place, but NOT everything about these old cars is as easy as black or white, or right or wrong. I think down deep we all are honest people who believe we are right/correct and might need to take a step back and take a breath and count to 10. Can't make MCACN again this year....."Won't you let me take you on a ........Sea Cruise". </div></div> http://www.superchevy.com/features/1...he-orange-one/ |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EdM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Clem;
This whole mess is your fault. Patty wanted something closer to Plum Crazy Purple, not that pink car. If you had ordered a 1970 Plum Crazy Purple 340 6 pack Challenger we would not be having this discussion. Ed M. </div></div>for some reason the car looks pink in photos but not in person. |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
I know man.
How are you holding up these days? I continue to be amazed at the amount of questioning of "original owner", plus "dealer statement, plus multiple people who remember the car back in the day. I guess you should have taken one of the fenders off of the car when it was new and stored it away. But if you had done that, someone would say it was from a different car. Life is too short to keep fighting these battles. Hang in there Clem. |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
Hey....
Quit using that. "PINK" word in reference to '69 Camaros..... We have one...as posted here in the past. It's gonna get a complex or Lotta Scrutiny to where a $35,000 car gets bashed, accoladed then auctioned for $150,000...... Can't deal with that.....and the silly ass Pink Car is the only known DZ , automatic & A/C car to grace these pages. (Yes, transplanted) Its already confused enough ....tri polar .. |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EdM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know man.
How are you holding up these days? I continue to be amazed at the amount of questioning of "original owner", plus "dealer statement, plus multiple people who remember the car back in the day. I guess you should have taken one of the fenders off of the car when it was new and stored it away. But if you had done that, someone would say it was from a different car. Life is too short to keep fighting these battles. Hang in there Clem. </div></div>I am 81 years old and this is the easiest thing I have ever done. try building engines to run the Daytona 500 along with working a real job and working 18 hours a day. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/laugh.gif[/img] |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
I am 81 years old and this is the easiest thing I have ever done. try building engines to run the Daytona 500 along with working a real job and working 18 hours a day. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/laugh.gif[/img] [/quote]
Norm Benning Jr. from Level Green ? |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
I have been at this a long time. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...newsletter.jpg
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Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am 81 years old and this is the easiest thing I have ever done. try building engines to run the Daytona 500 along with working a real job and working 18 hours a day. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/laugh.gif[/img] </div></div>
Norm Benning Jr. from Level Green ? [/quote]I know norm and I also knew his dad but I built for paul fess and lasky constructionhttps://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...at_daytona.jpg the #82 car is who i built for |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Posted by Clem.. "because jerry reputation as a Camaro expert is at stake here . why do you think his buddy william keep posting he did not see any EO paint when they looked at the car ????"
Clem. Jerry is not allowed on this site for other reasons. His reputation is not at stake here. I believe William is defending his position because that is what he believes he saw. My personal opinion is the car was some other color than Silver and that William missed noticing it. Joe Blow off the street would look at the pic with the mags on it and say "Silver". Not unless the Orchid color is brought up do you notice the off color. </div></div> Not quite what happened Charlie. All we knew going into this was the car was - B paint. We saw the car late 2010. Clem was not involved at the time and we had not seen the photo. Once again after two hours of examination there was no question all we saw was silver. Only after Clem became involved did the EO claim become a factor. JM emailed me June 17, 2011 and stated: "No way this is Evening Orchid." One of his neighbors growing up in Baltimore had an EO '65 Impala SS convert, 396 4-speed. It is an instantly recognizable color. When the owner later posted photos of the car dismantled it was obvious even to me there was a slight lavender tint to the OE paint. EO is hardly 'slightly' lavender. Close up GM code #81 looks silver; from a distance the tint becomes apparent. It is nowhere near as dark as EO. I was there. EO would have been obvious. |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: olredalert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">----Believe me Clem, I know exactly what you mean. Something similar happened to me several years ago. Maybe I should have entered "to me" at the end of that sentence......Bill S </div></div>I have a friend who went thru this with his 69 ZL-1 corvette when it did not meet what the NCRS said. it is a case of facts vs opinions. I knew what the corvette was as I worked on it when it was brand new. </div></div>
Clem, was this the orange Vette around Pgh with the Gulf Research stickers on it? If so, I remember it from several shows around Pittsburgh in the 80's. Also, honestly everyone, with the background that Clem has with cars, how anyone can question his statements is beyond me. He's no newbie or some old guy who doesn't remember what they bought, this man has some serious credentials that cannot be dismissed. Just my opinion. |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: markinnaples</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: olredalert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">----Believe me Clem, I know exactly what you mean. Something similar happened to me several years ago. Maybe I should have entered "to me" at the end of that sentence......Bill S </div></div>I have a friend who went thru this with his 69 ZL-1 corvette when it did not meet what the NCRS said. it is a case of facts vs opinions. I knew what the corvette was as I worked on it when it was brand new. </div></div>
Clem, was this the orange Vette around Pgh with the Gulf Research stickers on it? If so, I remember it from several shows around Pittsburgh in the 80's. Also, honestly everyone, with the background that Clem has with cars, how anyone can question his statements is beyond me. He's no newbie or some old guy who doesn't remember what they bought, this man has some serious credentials that cannot be dismissed. Just my opinion. </div></div>yes it is |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
I will not question Clem. On the other hand I also trust the Norwood workers too.
Others in the hobby have the same opinion?.. obviously not. We seem to be polarized beyond the ability to accomplish research and learn new things these days. |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
Clem,
We all would love to be entertained with your automotive archives of photos, stories, opinions and general commradery...... We all eat this stuff up..... ......... I'm sure you'll enjoy the memories as well...'maybe even more ' than us here.... Go through the index. You'll see. Subject matter here is wide open... Any insight/input would be applauded. Tom Martin ....yes, Joe's my Dad....& still with us. |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: William</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Posted by Clem.. "because jerry reputation as a Camaro expert is at stake here . why do you think his buddy william keep posting he did not see any EO paint when they looked at the car ????"
Clem. Jerry is not allowed on this site for other reasons. His reputation is not at stake here. I believe William is defending his position because that is what he believes he saw. My personal opinion is the car was some other color than Silver and that William missed noticing it. Joe Blow off the street would look at the pic with the mags on it and say "Silver". Not unless the Orchid color is brought up do you notice the off color. </div></div> Not quite what happened Charlie. All we knew going into this was the car was - B paint. We saw the car late 2010. Clem was not involved at the time and we had not seen the photo. Once again after two hours of examination there was no question all we saw was silver. Only after Clem became involved did the EO claim become a factor. JM emailed me June 17, 2011 and stated: "No way this is Evening Orchid." One of his neighbors growing up in Baltimore had an EO '65 Impala SS convert, 396 4-speed. It is an instantly recognizable color. When the owner later posted photos of the car dismantled it was obvious even to me there was a slight lavender tint to the OE paint. EO is hardly 'slightly' lavender. Close up GM code #81 looks silver; from a distance the tint becomes apparent. It is nowhere near as dark as EO. I was there. EO would have been obvious. </div></div>when you guys looked at the car first you said it was Cortez silver with stripes delete and never said it was special paint. I am not good at going back on computers but some can bring up the original posts on www.camaro.org |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...I am not good at going back on computers but some can bring up the original posts on www.camaro.org...</div></div> Camaro.net thread, click here... http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=207776 Thanks for your responses to my thoughts earlier Clem! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img] ~ Pete |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
Stripe delete IS special paint.
In the previous post I stated my thinking changed when I saw the car disassembled. GM code #81 is still silver; all we saw was silver. Both of us are quite familiar with EO having seen many original examples over the years. EO would have been immediately obvious. It obviously wasn't. The first two photos accurately depict what was observed-silver. First photo taken 2012; second one 1970. Paint finish looks the same despite the years. EO is seen in photos #3 & #4 and is not remotely close to #1 & #2. http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/t...psa94e44a0.png |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
I guess I am still wondering why the original owner would have any reason to lie about the color? I can't see where he has any stake in this, so why would we have any reason not to believe him?
I can say FOR SURE that original paint 1965 EO lacquer seems to be a much lighter, more silvery hue than what you get today spraying PPG base/clear. We had my Dad's urethane base/clear EO Nova near an original paint EO car at one point, and the original paint car looked silver by comparison. Much lighter, and less purple. |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: novadude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess I am still wondering why the original owner would have any reason to lie about the color? I can't see where he has any stake in this, so why would we have any reason not to believe him?
I can say FOR SURE that original paint 1965 EO lacquer seems to be a much lighter, more silvery hue than what you get today spraying PPG base/clear. We had my Dad's urethane base/clear EO Nova near an original paint EO car at one point, and the original paint car looked silver by comparison. Much lighter, and less purple. </div></div> Great post. |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
It is a light hue...OEM. E-O (Pastel )
The NASCAR 65 IMPALA pictured here is a perfect example of a "mix in non lacquer". 50 years removed. That pics show a deeper darker pigment. Clear coat in lacquer or enamel changes any color of base ....typically darkens it up. |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: novadude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess I am still wondering why the original owner would have any reason to lie about the color? I can't see where he has any stake in this, so why would we have any reason not to believe him?
I can say FOR SURE that original paint 1965 EO lacquer seems to be a much lighter, more silvery hue than what you get today spraying PPG base/clear. We had my Dad's urethane base/clear EO Nova near an original paint EO car at one point, and the original paint car looked silver by comparison. Much lighter, and less purple. </div></div>it is CYA time for the experts. if they can't get the color correct what about the other stuff on the car ??? |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
William,
Have you ever met a guy from the Fisher Body division at Norwood who sprayed out of a paint pot? |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
Indigo colors are the most unstable colors in the paint spectrum.
Add years of sunlight,or flo lights,and so many temperature differences since then,and I could see how some may be mis-lead thinking it came silver. |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
William,
What parts were painted EO that should not have been painted? |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: novadude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess I am still wondering why the original owner would have any reason to lie about the color? I can't see where he has any stake in this, so why would we have any reason not to believe him?
I can say FOR SURE that original paint 1965 EO lacquer seems to be a much lighter, more silvery hue than what you get today spraying PPG base/clear. We had my Dad's urethane base/clear EO Nova near an original paint EO car at one point, and the original paint car looked silver by comparison. Much lighter, and less purple. </div></div> At no time has anyone been accused of lying. As stated I do not question the car was ordered in EO. He has every reason to believe it was EO. Unlike yourself and many of the others I actually saw the original paint on this car. I have ample reason to believe it wasn't. All this talk of bc/cc variation is bs. Were that true every car restored in bc/cc wouldn't look original. Since I actually saw the OE paint nothing I have read here will convince me that car was EO. Feel free to continue convincing yourselves it was. |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
In the spirit of the "Hog wild race car" thread lets solve this mystery shall we?
But I need William to assist first. |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
William,
What parts were painted EO that should not have been painted? |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
where is the popcorn icon?
<insert here> cool car, great history, sad that the typical bs continues over a cool car |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
Two hours examining the car and William and Jerry missed the omission of the paint code on the trim tag (AKA special paint) and concluded that the car was Cortez Silver, which most, if not all on here agree that the car was not.
IMO, pretty much dismisses their inspection report. |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr70</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Indigo colors are the most unstable colors in the paint spectrum.
Add years of sunlight,or flo lights,and so many temperature differences since then,and I could see how some may be mis-lead thinking it came silver. </div></div>yes this true but why keep on insisting it was not EO after the original owner shows up with other people who have seen the car say it was EO. someone made a mistake but will not admit to it. all that has to be done is to say we made a mistake and the color was EO and this will be over. |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sYc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Two hours examining the car and William and Jerry missed the omission of the paint code on the trim tag (AKA special paint) and concluded that the car was Cortez Silver, which most, if not all on here agree that the car was not.
IMO, pretty much dismisses their inspection report. </div></div> Actually it pretty much dismisses your post. I mentioned the - B paint code a few days ago and it is always noted in an inspection. It was the main reason JM was called in. Since you weren't there either and have never seen the car your opinion is of no use to me. I do not participate in CHP inspection reports. |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: William</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sYc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Two hours examining the car and William and Jerry missed the omission of the paint code on the trim tag (AKA special paint) and concluded that the car was Cortez Silver, which most, if not all on here agree that the car was not.
IMO, pretty much dismisses their inspection report. </div></div> Actually it pretty much dismisses your post. I mentioned the - B paint code a few days ago and it is always noted in an inspection. It was the main reason JM was called in. Since you weren't there either and have never seen the car your opinion is of no use to me. I do not participate in CHP inspection reports. </div></div> A. if special paint code noted, then why report it as Cortez Siver, a standard Camaro color? B. "....Jerry & I spent two hours examining this car before it was restored." |
Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
I "thought" from reading this special paint "--" can also denote stripe delete
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