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Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
I hear all your points Les, however there are a lot of "IFs" that I'm sure a lot of people don't want known. A lot of people use other identities when buying on Ebay for one, the paper trail itself may be hard to follow. Are they really going to dig up a land fill or junkyard looking for the original shell? What if the builder was smart enough to remove any other hidden vin from the car in question? Where does that leave NICB? As far as Garys' story goes, I don't doubt it for one second, but proving who took it another step may be very hard. As I stated earlier, I think all the parties involved just want it to go away as fast as possible. Just my .02 on it
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Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
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Point taken, but has BJ ever done an unwind? Especially in a high profile case like this? I have no doubt they have the lawyers in place to do it, but has it ever happened? And what about the seller, Gary has "Officially retracted" his statement, so where does that place the seller in litigation wanting his due from BJ? I don't think law enforcement even comes into play now. He presented it, BJ promoted it, someone bought it, who pays? The way I see it is, after Gary retracted, it becomes a viable deal, someone bought the car and someone has to pay for it. I can't see the seller taking the car back and even remotely thinking about paying BJ 18% with Gary retracting, so where does it go from here? I know it's a mess and not right, but I also think that someone's coughing up the money to make it go away. Who has the most to lose here? My guess is BJ, that's all. [/ QUOTE ] BJ is just the vehicle to sell the car...that's all. They are in business to offer a place to sell a car...that's it...end of story. The seller bears the responsibility for the claims made and the representations that he made about the car...whether true or not. With the amount of pictures that are out on the internet on this particular car...or pieces of it...it makes no difference as to whether "Gary" retracted or not. Buyers and sellers have to sign a contract with BJ and all of this stuff is outlined in the contract. So if they take the time to read the contract (which they should) they will realize thar BJ is free and clear. Should BJ act to rectify the situation? I think so...but it's their choice as to what to do. They know WAY more about this type of stuff than I do! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif From what I know...deals have been unwound at quite a few auctions...including BJ. Like a really wise man once told me.... "It is what it is". https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif |
Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
Didnt the White ZL1 Reggie owned that sold for around 800k a couple years ago get un-done after they found out it wasnt the original motor? Pretty sure Ron bought that car too. Barrett can undo a deal if its not represented true and the seller pays both commisions.
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Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
..as well as the Futureliner bus.
Ron was bidding on that too when that lady got head over heals with her significant others money awhile back.Only to go to commercial while Bj reset the hammer once they returned. My point is,this is not unchartered water with the two of them & I'll bet Bj makes this right with Ron again.If he's smart he'll have them enforce a rule that makes Steve take off those ridiculous glasses during air time. |
Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
Theres at least 4 parties involved here. No. 1 - the buyer who really is only an interested party and had no part in how this problem came about, No. 2 - the restorer/rebuilder, No. 3 - the guy he bought the shell from with the VIN and tags already attached, and of course No. 4 - "Gary" who sold the tags and paper work in the first place. There may be others between people 3 and 4 as well. The tags were originally going to be sold in April of 2004 (don't actually know if they were or not, but I do know they were removed from the car along with a chunk of the cowl - the pictures verify this), and the (a) shell with those tags reappeared on Ebay in October of 2007, and the "most original ever" Z28 reappeared around June or July of this year at Carlise, and then at this auction. Obviously person number 3 (or maybe someone between him and "Gary") is the one who affixed the tags to the new shell.
The seller/restorer of this car might get off the hook because of that sequence of events, but he's going to be out a ton of money if law enforcement seizes the car. You don't have to dig up anything to determine if the car has its original shell or not. Every stamped peice of sheetmetal on a camaro contains a plant code and a date code on it. For example the firewall body mount cage has at least 3 stamps on them consisting of a letter and 2 digit number indicating the week of the year it was stamped out. All you need to do is find a few and compare it to the build time of the car. If theres a big difference in dates then the parts of the shell don't belong with the tags. |
Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
Again, I agree with what BJ is, just a platform for sellers and buyers. I would also agree that many a car has crossed the block at BJ, as less than advertised. What makes this case/car so special is who the buyer is. If anyone doesn't think special treatment won't be paid here by the house is probably where we disagree. I'm not condoning what happened here by any means, I'm just saying, I think this will all go away with everyone happy in a convenient way and we'll hear very little about it in the future. Bad press in these difficult economic times are not good for any business. Scottsdale is right around the corner. With the other auction houses gaining ground with a reserve auction venue and consignments on top notch cars being paramount, I can see BJ wanting this to go away. All I'm saying is that they are in a bad position here, and have a lot to lose, as far as the credibility of their consignments and reputation. This isn't about a 125K, this is about millions.
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Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
Just a guess, but I'd bet that a BUNCH of the street rods and custom cars that pass through BJ have VINs that aren't original to the actual car rolling across the block if anyone were actually to look into it.
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Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
Not to change the topic but is there any more discussion's on the red LS6 Chevelle Convertible that went across the block on Sat night that Ron also purchased? Just curious?
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Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
I have seen no other substantial discussion either here or on the Chevelle website. The Chevelle's issues pale in comparison to the Camaro, so it's probably nothing but an afterthought at this point.
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Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
Regardless of who's going to take a fall here, BJ may not be all innocent even if they have written provisions in their auction agreements to escape legal problems?.
If failing to do their utmost to protect both buyers and sellers of cars that may have a shady history has been their choice, poor attendance and sales at future BJ auctions could result in a worse penalty...a financial one?. Any auction house who has true concerns for their buyers and sellers should post Vins of upcoming cars w/ ample time ahead of the auction date to allow the collector car community to gather any relevant facts together and present them before the car crosses the block.. If any auction house chooses not to do this and/or heed any serious concerns raised before sale, that's their choice and they may have to live w/ the long term resulting financial losses if the facts come out after the sale?. Obviously no one should condemn Jerry M. without his report being displayed.. He's not a stupid man and his concerns for this specific car also disclaimer for circumstances such as this on any car he inspects is most likey included in his report?. If this case is as clear cut as Les Q. above seems to feel, it could be the beginning of many more to come?. With plenty of similar situations sitting in garages all over the world there's no doubt lots of people sitting on the edge of their seats watching what unfolds here?. Best of luck to any true innocents that get caught up in the crossfire!. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif ~ Pete |
Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
True Bill P. ! I was wondering if anyone else had seen the car , paperwork etc as I was having doubt's about my impressions on the car and if anyone knew for sure ,...I'd appreciate a private email with there thoughts ??( [email protected])
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Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
I read on the Team Camaro site that the report from MacNeish is 3 pages long. It isn't his job to tear the car apart to look at all the date stamps and the hidden VIN stamps. He does a visual inspection of the TT, VIN plate and major components. It would be impossible for him to disect every car he inspects. If the car in question had a factory issued TT,VIN plate, rivets in the TT are genuine and there is no evidence of tampering to the firewall, should MacNeish go any farther in looking for a rebody? Or anything for that matter? I don't see how the "Expert got fooled" is the right statement to make here.
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Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
Maybe the "experts" or appraisers for that matter need to have a disclaimer in their report to indemnify them from verification of original body, block, trans, etc. and potential legal proceedings. What more can they do than verify what they can see on the surface? Sure you can get a scope in some hidden places but some changes are very difficult if not impossible to detect. Where does this leave the uneducated buyer or owner? I research all the cars I buy before hand but I am sure that an owner isn't going to let me rip the whole car apart before I buy it.
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Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] BJ is just the vehicle to sell the car...that's all. They are in business to offer a place to sell a car...that's it...end of story. [/ QUOTE ] I agree. Several years ago, Tiffanys was pissed that so much fake "Tiffanys" jewelry was being sold on Ebay. Tiffanys did a little undercover work and purchased several thousand so called REAL pieces of Tiffanys jewelry off eBay. Over 70% were fake. Tiffanys sued eBay claiming eBay facilatated counterfeiting. In July this year, A Federal judge ruled in favor of eBay. I don't see much difference between. |
Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
[ QUOTE ]
I read on the Team Camaro site that the report from MacNeish is 3 pages long. It isn't his job to tear the car apart to look at all the date stamps and the hidden VIN stamps. He does a visual inspection of the TT, VIN plate and major components. It would be impossible for him to disect every car he inspects. If the car in question had a factory issued TT,VIN plate, rivets in the TT are genuine and there is no evidence of tampering to the firewall, should MacNeish go any farther in looking for a rebody? Or anything for that matter? I don't see how the "Expert got fooled" is the right statement to make here. [/ QUOTE ] Think about it.........If Jerry was to really "Certify" beyond any doubt..........Is that really possible.........He's brought a "Paper Trail" Numbers car.....Would the owner allow someone to take the car down to the point of removing the paint and Primer to check for any apparent deceptive metal working in the Hidden Vin Area's.........I don't think so....So......In that Case, How is anything validated anymore.........I heard of a ZL-1 that is being rebodied where the restorer (Owner???) found an old timer who came in to Hammer Weld the hidden vin #'s in to be non detectable.........Again.....The "Publically" known real cars have probably the Best Validation.......The Cars that fall out of the Sky after all these years are the ones that "Really" need to be looked at Closer..... Are they what they are.........Or......What the Owner wants them to be.........With the Legal Exposure as it is today......Who could or would ever "Validate" 100% that it is anything other than what the Car "Appears" to be.... Just my $.02 Ken https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif |
Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
I'm so tired of all this sh!t....
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Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
this is the "[censored]"i have been saying would happen!!!!!
told you all so!!! but you guys killed the messenger!!!! |
Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
I think we've heard how you've tried to save all of us a few times now Wagonman!
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Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
Only problem this time is someone used real tags and paperwork to fake a car, as opposed to fake paperwork and tags.
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Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
Why does the Wagonmeister think his flip-flop to the warning angle is new information to anyone here?.
What does 67rscoupe think? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif ~ Pete |
Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
[ QUOTE ]
Didnt the White ZL1 Reggie owned that sold for around 800k a couple years ago get un-done after they found out it wasnt the original motor? Pretty sure Ron bought that car too. Barrett can undo a deal if its not represented true and the seller pays both commisions. [/ QUOTE ] Did they ever find out who did the switch-a-roo?? Is there more info on this transaction somewhere? I'd love to read it. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/shocked.gif |
Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
[ QUOTE ]
Only problem this time is someone used real tags and paperwork to fake a car, as opposed to fake paperwork and tags. [/ QUOTE ] Just like that Orange 427 car a few years back! |
Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
Post removed at the request of the poster, al8apex
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Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
Is he the same guy who did the 2 Matching Cortez Silver Z/28s at Barrett last year? There was a thread here showing some terrible cowl tags and I believe someone even over-heard some discussion on the plane.
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Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
[ QUOTE ]
Why does the Wagonmeister think his flip-flop to the warning angle is new information to anyone here?. What does 67rscoupe think? THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT ME! BUT LEMME ASK HIM,OH HE THINKS THE SAME THING" YOUR A PUNK AYE!!!!!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif ~ [/ QUOTE ] |
Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
Lock her up Dano!!!Enough is enough!!
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Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Why does the Wagonmeister think his flip-flop to the warning angle is new information to anyone here?. What does 67rscoupe think? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif ~ Pete ---------------------------- THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT ME! BUT LEMME ASK HIM,OH HE THINKS THE SAME THING" YOUR A PUNK AYE!!!!!! [/ QUOTE ] [/ QUOTE ] I sure hope Frank doesn't feel the same way...he was the coolest of the three Wagoneers!. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif ~ Pete |
Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
Pete,
look me up anytime! or call me if you have anything to say to me! i pm'd you my number!!! i said absolutely nothing to you! so we need to talk man to man! |
Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
Once again I post something and immediately I’m under attack.
Some of you really do need to get a life. I’m sure it’s the desensitized nature of a net forum since I never seem to have these face to face comments in person at any car show. Oh look Tom Clary.I;m a paid member here! Do I get any type of help from you here? PS… If you’re insinuating that the three usernames are the same person, then I’m afraid you’re in need of getting your facts straight! |
Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
[ QUOTE ]
Once again I post something ( "told you all so!!!" )and immediately I’m under attack." John, get some more skin. That is NOT an attack!! I am sure most are very grateful for your lesson. And the reminder. Again. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif |
Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
“YOUR A PUNK AYE!!!!!!” https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/shocked.gif
“i said absolutely nothing to you!” https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif “Do I get any type of help from you here?” https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif Oh no, here it comes again… one of the web’s most intelligent and respectful discussion forums (IMHO), reduced to YouTube level idiocy. |
Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
Wagonmaster. You keep harping like you have been warning us all along and we never heard of people faking paperwork. You act like the sole reason to build your car was to educate people but in reality 99% of the people that saw your car at a show were led to believe it was the real thing because unless they talked to you and asked you about it, they simply walked off thinking it was a rare car. Now in hindsight you are acting like the car was built to educate people when in fact it misled many people. Then you came to this site and ended up really pissing people off when they find out you are posting under a second name hyping your own car. You have brought most of this on yourself. Give it a rest.
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Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
Bingo..
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Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
[ QUOTE ]
“YOUR A PUNK AYE!!!!!!” https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/shocked.gif “i said absolutely nothing to you!” https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif “Do I get any type of help from you here?” https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif Oh no, here it comes again… one of the web’s most intelligent and respectful discussion forums (IMHO), reduced to YouTube level idiocy. [/ QUOTE ] I must admit I do agree! I get on this forum, and immediately my intellectual capabilities are reduced to Jerry Springer levels!! You guys bring out the best in me |
Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
Lock me out charley!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
[ QUOTE ]
Wagonmaster. You keep harping like you have been warning us all along and we never heard of people faking paperwork. You act like the sole reason to build your car was to educate people but in reality 99% of the people that saw your car at a show were led to believe it was the real thing because unless they talked to you and asked you about it, they simply walked off thinking it was a rare car. [/ QUOTE ] Intersting point. Those that have been around this hobby for a while and are on boards such as this have known about it for a very long time. It's the random car show onlooker, or those who have a more casual interest in these cars, that could actually be "educated" about it, yet seems as though that isn't happening. But I digress... the horse has been beaten to death... |
Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
wagonman,
Let me UP your intellectual capability a little… There’s no need to be locked out if you just STOP posting! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif |
Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
Lock you out? Are you an addict that can't stop on your own? Or is it that you want to be locked out so you can start a new name? Thanks for speaking up Charley, you hit the nail on the head. I have seen Wagonman's Camaro in person and there is no denying it is gorgeous. He proved that a car could be faked, that does not take a saint and rarely does.
Jason https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif Jason |
Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
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Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
[ QUOTE ]
wagonman, Let me UP your intellectual capability a little… There’s no need to be locked out if you just STOP posting! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif [/ QUOTE ] you don't understand........... http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q...enkoAddict.jpg off the wagon? really no pun intended... |
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