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-   -   Restamping blocks?????????????? (https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=132139)

Mr70 05-07-2015 11:30 PM

Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
 
Agree.
S***,there's a few original owners out there today claiming they still have their original born with engine,when they really don't,and they know it.



RST 05-08-2015 04:58 AM

Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
 
[/quote]

I would take exception to that. As someone stated, &quot;knowledge is the key&quot;. I've been hired to tell people if their engine was the original or not because I have a very large sampling of original stampings. So, if I in fact happen to own a car with its original engine, purchased from the heir of the deceased original owner, then I feel perfectly safe in describing it as a born-with engine. Who do <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 14pt">I</span></span> hire to verify my claim?

I know this brings up notions of the fox guarding the hen house, but truth and my reputation are of utmost importance to me. Maybe that's why, given the information I have about certain cars, that I'm still broke.

Verne [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/scholar.gif[/img] [/quote]

While you make some great points, if you state that it is the &quot;Born with Drivetrain&quot; that is based on your opinion and your educated assumption, but you really don't have proof other then your word and your research. I am perfectly comfortable with a person making a statement that, based on the engine stamping, castings, documentation, history, etc, it is believed to be the original born with drivetrain. I mean no disrespect what so ever and I am sure you are 100 times the expert I am on engine stampings etc, I am just stating facts and the facts are, that unfortunately it is virtually impossible to guarantee originality, trust me I wish it was, I have spent a lot of money on cars with the belief that I am purchasing numbers matching cars, and that is why this site is so very important to myself and us all. Experts like you and others that are on this site that have been a part of the hobby for many years help protect others like me. And you and the other experts here on the site can provide verification services as well as information on known cars that can keep this wonderful hobby clean and protected.

Hope to see you all at SCR18 [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]

mr 707 05-08-2015 08:36 AM

Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
 
In ohio theirs been some well known cases. One for sure is the judge who bought a so called 1967 427-435 vette. AS i recall its a felony to restamp a vin without law enforcement present. Adding fake documents made to look like originals doesnt look good in front of a judge. I always do a previous owner seach to see what they say about a car. the 2 lasts owners are usually on the title. You buy a picasso at auction thats represented as real and its turn out it isnt you have recourse.

Verne_Frantz 05-08-2015 12:57 PM

Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RST</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[/quote]

I would take exception to that. As someone stated, &quot;knowledge is the key&quot;. I've been hired to tell people if their engine was the original or not because I have a very large sampling of original stampings. So, if I in fact happen to own a car with its original engine, purchased from the heir of the deceased original owner, then I feel perfectly safe in describing it as a born-with engine. Who do <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 14pt">I</span></span> hire to verify my claim?

I know this brings up notions of the fox guarding the hen house, but truth and my reputation are of utmost importance to me. Maybe that's why, given the information I have about certain cars, that I'm still broke.

Verne [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/scholar.gif[/img] </div></div>

While you make some great points, if you state that it is the &quot;Born with Drivetrain&quot; that is based on your opinion and your educated assumption, but you really don't have proof other then your word and your research. I am perfectly comfortable with a person making a statement that, based on the engine stamping, castings, documentation, history, etc, it is believed to be the original born with drivetrain. I mean no disrespect what so ever and I am sure you are 100 times the expert I am on engine stampings etc, I am just stating facts and the facts are, that unfortunately it is virtually impossible to guarantee originality, trust me I wish it was, I have spent a lot of money on cars with the belief that I am purchasing numbers matching cars, and that is why this site is so very important to myself and us all. Experts like you and others that are on this site that have been a part of the hobby for many years help protect others like me. And you and the other experts here on the site can provide verification services as well as information on known cars that can keep this wonderful hobby clean and protected.

Hope to see you all at SCR18 [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img] [/quote]

I do understand your point, but I don't think the &quot;proof&quot; you seek will ever be available for any car, unless by some chance someone took a photo of the deck stamp the day the car was delivered to compare to it today. The &quot;proof&quot; comes from knowledgeable people who inspect what is there and deem it to be original based on many factors. The age, condition, owner history etc are all put to the test to see if it appears to be unmolested. Restored cars are obviously the most difficult to document. Generally speaking, the worse the condition of the car, the easier it is to confrim originality.

Verne [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Steve Shauger 05-08-2015 02:27 PM

Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
 
In my opinion if you have the experience, expertise and a data base of unrestored cars and stamping examples then you put yourself in a position to make an educated determination as to the validity of a cars stampings. Not every case is cut and dried, however if I certify or advertise a car as born with drivetrain, then I am absolutely sure of my finding.

I rather buy a car or component where the seller is stating born-with, because they are convinced because of their expertise or an expert they hired to make that statement of its originality. Is it an absolute, no, but then what is. There are a lot of variables and detective work that goes into validating a car or its components.

iluv69s 05-08-2015 02:52 PM

Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
 
I guess one can never have 100% proof that the motor is 'born with'... I am sure there are experts here that could build an undetectable LS-6..or COPO... let's face it... If the experts say it is original, that is all we can go by. They are who everyone calls to document originality anyway.
I know there are experts that have made mistakes, but atleast I believe the vast majority of the real 'experts' nowadays are sincere and honest..(ie... Verne, Rick, Kurt S.. etc.)
Not talking about just your local appraiser that is a 'supposed expert' on all makes and models. I'd have much less faith in an appraiser/documentation from those type appraisers. Although a few cars I have bought had those type appraisals/docs, I saw obvious mistakes in the apprasials about original equipment, etc. I would never trust them and always decided on my own if car was original/correct before purchase. Ive never hired an expert/appraiser prior to purchase, but have enough knowledge to know what I am buying. That's why I usually stick to Camaros.
But bottom line is it is wise to hire an real expert PRIOR to purchase if you don't know enough about the car you are about to buy.
Also I would much rather have an unrestored barn find w long time storage/ownership than a car that has been restored. Even some of the most well known collectors did some shady things many years ago with these cars..sometime without any malice or never realizing the future.

my .02

mockingbird812 05-08-2015 03:14 PM

Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
 
<span style="font-style: italic">&quot;I am sure there are experts here that could build an undetectable LS-6..or COPO&quot; </span> There is just too much info in certain data-collector's files that would make this highly unlikely. Some data bases can tell you when certain elements of gang stamps were changed out (i.e. certain alphanumerics had defects or slight skew in the way it was stamped) at the various plants. As long as these fellows could scrutinize the stampings, I doubt they would pass scrutiny if they were forged. JMO. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif[/img]

SS427 05-08-2015 03:48 PM

Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
 
I was recently talking with a client about this very topic Sam and with regards to an LS6 Chevelle. What I told them was (other than I am about as honest as honest could be) I could very easily build an LS6 from a Malibu with full documents based on my database, experience and knowledge and pass it off as the real deal. If I can do it so can someone else. Whenever I inspect an LS6 for a customer this is what I tell them and exactly why I will not give them a certificate of authenticity, only a 10 page inspection report based solely on facts and my professional opinion. If I can fool an expert than it is only fair to say that an expert can fool me. Another reason why when I inspect a car I also try and do as much history searching on the car as I can. There is a list of restorers that one needs to potentially steer clear of due to their reputation of building clones &quot;only for the customer and not for the sake of passing it off as a real car&quot;. Ok, whatever. I also try and research previous owners. LS6 and COPO cars that suddenly appear out of thin air with no previous history are always suspect. It is very hard to keep an LS6 or a COPO under wraps for 45 years with no one knowing about it. You are absolutely correct on anomalies in stampings based on changes made on the line. However, I know many of those and when they took place with regards to the LS6 Chevelle so again if I were going to fake a stamp I could easily add those anomalies.

iluv69s 05-08-2015 06:41 PM

Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
 
I'm sure the experts here could build a clone that noone could detect...they are the ones w the databases and they know exactly what is correct....

mr 707 05-08-2015 10:01 PM

Re: Restamping blocks??????????????
 
past owner history usually smoke out counterfits. Dont ever trust a protecto plate. Too many original(( boxes of them)) ones left over from out of business dealers. Theirs a guy in florida who sells them every day


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