Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
My legal fees for this session are $25. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif You can pay by joining this website. Operators are standing by, Master Card and Visa Accepted...makes a great Christmas Gift!

[/ QUOTE ]

Jeez Steve - those are Jersey prices! Can you give those of
us below the Mason-Dixon line a discount? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif

Nuch

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

if the car was sold from here on as a *tribute* or *clone* car, would that end the legality issue?

JH

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

I think they should just "brand" the ownership as a rebody, just like they do with cars that have been "totalled" in a crash. I would not consider this a "clone" or a "tribute" as it was made from a geni car. For whatever reason, it has had the body changed and the OEM VIN was place on this shell. I would say it's worth more then a clone, but not as much as a OEM COPO, somewhere in between.

I would rather see a rebody to save the car as such, a rebody of the OEM COPO or whatever, but the info should be up front. Like if the car was a total rust bucket. But at least it can be saved. Just let the market know therefore the the $$$ would reflect.

We as a group should lobby the lawmakers to do something like branding the ownership on a rebody for whatever reason, rust, crash, fire, at least it would save these from the crusher.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

I agree, they should have a salvage title...

Mike

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Hey Drew - your market segment is telling you something. Change your business paradigm, and think about how you could help us clean up the hobby. How about this: YOU set a standard of disclosure for all of the cars that pass through your house. If the seller's representation meets YOUR standard, and you offer the car, then everyone wins - the seller gets the sale, you make money in your business, and the buyer gets what was represented. After all, the buyer is paying the house money as well as the seller. I'm sure you have all sorts of knee jerk reactions as to why this simple system won't work. I will make a prediction, however, RS can be the absolute best, most respected auction house in American, bar none, if YOU will lead with integrity. If not, the Feds will pass laws, regs, and fees to govern our hobby. In addition, a knowledgeable customer base with the means to buy your cars, will run from your show (if indeed they haven't already) So how about it, Drew, if you love the hobby as you say you do, step up, and help us keep this thing alive and well. Bob

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Rebody and salvage titled cars are totally different things and the two should never be confused as something similar..
This is the grey area the rebody shysters have been riding all along so we certainly shouldn't condone it much less make it legal!.
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif
~ Pete

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think they should just "brand" the ownership as a rebody, just like they do with cars that have been "totalled" in a crash. I would not consider this a "clone" or a "tribute" as it was made from a geni car. For whatever reason, it has had the body changed and the OEM VIN was place on this shell. I would say it's worth more then a clone, but not as much as a OEM COPO, somewhere in between.

I would rather see a rebody to save the car as such, a rebody of the OEM COPO or whatever, but the info should be up front. Like if the car was a total rust bucket. But at least it can be saved. Just let the market know therefore the the $$$ would reflect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but I don't agree with you. If I am reading correctly, the only real parts of the original car are the rearend and a piece of metal with the VIN on it. Do these parts make a $30,000 car worth $100,000 or more? I don't think so. There are clones built that have real COPO drivetrains. I would place more value to those cars than this one. JMO
James

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Drew - your market segment is telling you something. Change your business paradigm, and think about how you could help us clean up the hobby. How about this: YOU set a standard of disclosure for all of the cars that pass through your house. If the seller's representation meets YOUR standard, and you offer the car, then everyone wins - the seller gets the sale, you make money in your business, and the buyer gets what was represented. After all, the buyer is paying the house money as well as the seller. I'm sure you have all sorts of knee jerk reactions as to why this simple system won't work. I will make a prediction, however, RS can be the absolute best, most respected auction house in American, bar none, if YOU will lead with integrity. If not, the Feds will pass laws, regs, and fees to govern our hobby. In addition, a knowledgeable customer base with the means to buy your cars, will run from your show (if indeed they haven't already) So how about it, Drew, if you love the hobby as you say you do, step up, and help us keep this thing alive and well. Bob

[/ QUOTE ]

word.. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Drew - your market segment is telling you something. Change your business paradigm, and think about how you could help us clean up the hobby. How about this: YOU set a standard of disclosure for all of the cars that pass through your house. If the seller's representation meets YOUR standard, and you offer the car, then everyone wins - the seller gets the sale, you make money in your business, and the buyer gets what was represented. After all, the buyer is paying the house money as well as the seller. I'm sure you have all sorts of knee jerk reactions as to why this simple system won't work. I will make a prediction, however, RS can be the absolute best, most respected auction house in American, bar none, if YOU will lead with integrity. If not, the Feds will pass laws, regs, and fees to govern our hobby. In addition, a knowledgeable customer base with the means to buy your cars, will run from your show (if indeed they haven't already) So how about it, Drew, if you love the hobby as you say you do, step up, and help us keep this thing alive and well. Bob

[/ QUOTE ]

How is this at all Drew's fault and/or responsibility to ensure fairness? He's an auction house, not a dealer-- He just puts buyers and sellers together, and allows each to fend for themselves (i.e.: Reserves to protect sellers, and the buyer can walk away if/when they want).

If you don't agree with the way Drew does it, start your own auction house, as you've apparently stumbled upon a business opportunity.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

I too happen to like Drew's auctions. I attend them and have in the past been a bidder. The point of my comments are not to imply or infer that the auction house has either the blame or the responsibility under the current system. I AM suggesting that there are solutions to the reported abuses and misrepresentations in our hobby. This forum is the beginning of the disclosure solution as it provides a process for a buyer to learn specifics about a car of interest. Auction houses can greatly assist in this process. It is certainly their perogative to run their business as they wish. Maybe someday, one of the houses will step forward and begin the change in their industry from caveat emptor. I happen to think that the first one that implements disclosure will win. What possible down side is there for the auction house? Since Drew is an enthusiast, and in position to effect they way his house does business, I was (and am still) urging him to give it some thought. Bob

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

I like your idea & still suggest this idea too,as I did earlier when we were discussing auto auctions recently...
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat...true#Post320740

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

can i play devil's advocate for a second? what is the difference if it is a rebody, or if you changed the quarters, rockers, floors, rear body panel, inner and outer wheelhouses etc. there are plenty of cars out there that have had all the body panels changed. no one complains about that. it could have been done better that you could not look under the hidden vin and see where the vin was welded in, but it is still a COPO. i am just sayin.........

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
can i play devil's advocate for a second? what is the difference if it is a rebody, or if you changed the quarters, rockers, floors, rear body panel, inner and outer wheelhouses etc..........

[/ QUOTE ]


...about 5 years in a Federal prison. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]


the only real parts of the original car are the rearend and a piece of metal with the VIN on it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Did someone verify the car had the original rearend?

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Phil said the BE rear is dated correct for the car.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
Phil said the BE rear is dated correct for the car.

[/ QUOTE ]
If a Z was used, I would assume the Z28 12bolt would have been one of the key components to duplicate the COPO or why use a Z, if so diff could of been restamped?

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Whoever has the car now should pull the fender and heater box to check the second hidden vin for traces of it being tampered with or not. That would help a bunch.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

If the car went back to the seller, assuming it is rebodied, I doubt we will hear about this car for a while, it will be sold to some unsuspecting buyer privately.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

It's not Drew's fault in any way.

I still feel the if the auction folks were to have a process and policy which would offer the buyers more confidence the bottom line would not suffer, prices would most likely increase. Credible sellers would boast that their cars were up for auction at .... and that by being accepted shows that their cars are of the highest quality and integrity. I'm sure that it would add a significant amount of effort on the auction houses part but like I said earlier, most people will spend more if they know what they are getting is the best!

Seems like a no brainer to me

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

I'm sorry, but what does pulling the car apart solve?

At this rate, the poor owner is going to have to change the trim tag and/or the VIN to be able to get rid of it. Kinda funny if you ask me.

And federal prison? Come on dude-- Get real. "Why are you here?" "You don't want to know. Why are you here?" "I re-bodied a camaro..." LOL!

This whole thing has passed the point of ridiculous.

BTW-- Did anyone see that oil is almost $120/barrel? At 6 - 8 MPG, may want to re-tag that camaro into a six while you're at it so you can actually drive it...!

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
At this rate, the poor owner is going to have to <u>change the trim tag and/or the VIN </u> to be able to get rid of it. Kinda funny if you ask me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Somehow, I don't think that would help the situation... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
I still feel the if the auction folks were to have a process and policy which would offer the buyers more confidence the bottom line would not suffer, prices would most likely increase. Credible sellers would boast that their cars were up for auction at .... and that by being accepted shows that their cars are of the highest quality and integrity......... most people will spend more if they know what they are getting is the best!

Seems like a no brainer to me

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Top shelf cars with KNOWN history, verifiable docs, photographic resto records and no excuses almost always bring top dollar in ANY venue. Less than the above is just, well, less and many of us won't mess with it.
Dave

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Very well said!

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Surprised Drew is not going after you for using Russo and Steel CHOP JOB Camaro Copo in the same sentence !!!

Reads like Russo did the chopping !!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

What??

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
Surprised Drew is not going after you for using Russo and Steel CHOP JOB Camaro Copo in the same sentence !!!



[/ QUOTE ] Almost sounds like youd be happy if he did. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Richp-
I am not even going to dignify the level of stupidity of that comment with a response...
Drew

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
I too happen to like Drew's auctions. I attend them and have in the past been a bidder. The point of my comments are not to imply or infer that the auction house has either the blame or the responsibility under the current system. I AM suggesting that there are solutions to the reported abuses and misrepresentations in our hobby. This forum is the beginning of the disclosure solution as it provides a process for a buyer to learn specifics about a car of interest. Auction houses can greatly assist in this process. It is certainly their perogative to run their business as they wish. Maybe someday, one of the houses will step forward and begin the change in their industry from caveat emptor. I happen to think that the first one that implements disclosure will win. What possible down side is there for the auction house? Since Drew is an enthusiast, and in position to effect they way his house does business, I was (and am still) urging him to give it some thought. Bob

[/ QUOTE ] for every bad car Drew would lose by implementing this policy, I predict he pick's up 2 better cars in return, it's a no brainer good business move to me... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

How in the world would you dismantle every musclecar that comes thru the door for auction ?? You have to at least try and rely on the integrity of the seller at some point. If people knew they had to have the car dismantled for inspection they will just do the work better.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

WAIT A MINUTE!
Upon reading the post again, I THINK what RichP MEANT to say was: It reads as IF Russo and Steele had something to do with the "chopping". I may have over-reacted. Of course you can image my horror that ANYONE could or would possibly suggest that "Russo and Steele HAD something to do with 'chopping'" - which was also the reason for Stephano's reply of "What?" as well...
You are indeed correct - using the word "Chopping" and "Russo and Steele" in the same sentence sent off alarm bells.
Sorry for my "knee-jerk" response (ok - I'll say it so someone else doesn't have too - emphasis on Jerk) - humble apology to RichP it I now read it correctly.
Drew

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
How in the world would you dismantle every musclecar that comes thru the door for auction ?? You have to at least try and rely on the integrity of the seller at some point. If people knew they had to have the car dismantled for inspection they will just do the work better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the auction house doesn't have to dismantle a car. Remember, I suggested the auction house set it's standard for disclosure. Therefore the seller dosen't have to "prove" his car. The seller just has to meet the house standard. Since buyers and seller both know the standard, they both "know" what they sold or bought. AND, the auction house that currently gets money from both, WILL have some skin in the game. In my view, under auction SOP today, the auction house always wins, 'cuz they represent a car to the max (per sellers representation), they get money from both the seller and buyer, and if the deal turns out to be bad for seller or buyer, the house is out without fault or responsibility. That said, for me, it's not about money - mine or the auction house - it's about the integrity of the hobby! The auction house CAN help with that issue and in the process strengthen their sales and bottom line. So, how about it Drew, since you are on this thread, give us some feedback on the concept. Up or down, good or bad, how about some ideas. Thanks in advance

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

I hear you Bob...but if a guy is going to re-body a car he won't have much interest in spilling the beans so you dpend on that persons integrity. And if a person unknowingly goes to sell a car that he has no idea was a re-body...he can't disclose it either. Mauybe a hefty penalty for the seller if a car is discovered "bad" https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Hello Motion68,

From an idealistic standpoint, I very much agree with you. Where things start to get “sticky” is when the Auction House, in any way what so ever, begins to involve itself in the representation process (from writing descriptive text, to implementing research, to initiating disclosure measures) we then are placed in a position of liability and responsibility for the integrity of the transaction. Very true, we benefit a great deal from this transaction (in almost 20 pages of posting, I never heard any one mention that we had significant commissions on the table over this deal that completely disappeared when it went south) so there is indeed tremendous value to the auction company to ensure that a car is correctly represented so that a deal “sticks” and we can pay some bills with the applicable commissions.

To that end, and with a very pragmatic and “realistic” perspective, I would very much enjoy a conversation and suggestions as to how we can provide this measure of accountability without exposing my company to undue liability. By contract, we have specific provisions that address this to some extent, but as we all know, there are numerous ways to be “duped” either maliciously or unknowingly by a seller.

I think the very best scenario has been inviting (and many times we do) known authorities in the hobby to attend our sales. Galen Govier for example has been a tremendous help, as has Kevin Marti, Ed Meyer, Jim Wicks, etc. There are also many organizations that have lots of archived information. Look at the Shelby American Automobile Club for example. The larger question is, how can any auction house scrutinize hundreds of cars when so much of what our discussion has been about in this instance requires some degree of dismantling?

Just to cross-reference the Ford VIN number (on file with SAAC) requires the removal of the Shelby SFM VIN Tag. Some could argue that simply drilling the rivets out could be an illegal act, but can you image if I accidentally slipped when drilling them out and let my Makita slide across a freshly restored fender? Yikes!

I am already in the process of re-painting the cowl panel off the silver Camaro we have been discussing as it was scratched to hell from removing the wipers and then tossed in the trunk by the defaulting buyer. Here we go again, another couple of hundred bucks to ‘fix’ something following shipping charges, entry fees, lost commissions, and two upset clients. No problem Drew, just keep smiling…

As you can see from just these two scenarios (one hypothetical and one sadly very real) getting involved with this level of discovery by the Auction House has some real serious liability associated with it.

So the question is: how do we provide some level of assurances to our buyers (over and above what is stipulated by contract) – maintain a ‘level playing field’ for all – and not open our selves up for tremendous risk while still fulfilling the objective of what we all want: Honesty.

Lord knows we work pretty hard to deliver to our bidders the very best level of customer service I know of. From Josephine’s killer food buffets in Scottsdale to full coverage insurance binders from Grundy Worldwide to offering free shipping for 6+ purchases, not to mention our block being reserved only for credentialed clients, I believe this evidence clearly demonstrates how much Russo and Steele values their Bidders.

I am open to suggestions on how to address providing an additional level of protection to our buyers. These discussion forums are great tools to “hear what the hobby has to say” – learn, adjust and continually work to improve our level of service and integrity.

I will look forward to realistic and constructive comments and suggestions. We are all stronger together than we are apart.

Drew Alcazar

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Ahhh..The kinder-gentler Drew.....nice post.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

You're right. There will be cars that still fall through the cracks, exceptions to the rules, someone put one over on someone else. But, I'm thinking that particularly for the rare high dollar cars, there may some benefit here. In January at RS, I bid on a blue 396 Nova (didn't win and I'm still crying). I did everything I could to check the car out in the 2 days before it went on the block. Spoke with the seller, spoke with the sellers agent, called my Nova "expert" and reveiwed the car in detail with him on the phone. In the end, I bid on the car because Stefano was brokering the deal and I trusted his judgement. Boy would I like to have that same trust in the auction house. 'Cuz, guess what? I would have cheerfully handed over about $5K of my money to the house. And, guess what again? If the car didn't meet the sellers descripton that the house published - I think my money had wings in full flight - never to return to me. I just can't get past the feeling that it would be so good for the hobby AND would I believe make the house more money. As someone else said on this thread before me - it's a no brainer. Will someone talk about the downside of such a plan? And Drew, if your house institutes such a plan of disclosure and attendant responsibility, can I buy a share of your deal?

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Is Drew available to speak at weddings? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Yes Charlie, it was a nice post. And thank you Drew for the comments. I too think such a disclosure process will bring additional (and unknown) potential liability to your firm. But I also think that businesses build into their revenue stream a recovery of those costs. It's a cost of doing business - so charge more to the buyer or seller or both. Hey, when I got the itch for the Nova, it really didn't matter your fee - but I did want the car AS IT WAS REPRESENTED, and wanted recourse if not. I'd pay for that level of responsibility. BTW - the buffet was great - my son and I probably cost you some money next year.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Realistically, I can't see the auction house doing to much here except include the serial number to a car in their listings. With the internet, camera cell phones, etc their is a lot of resources available to the buyer, so the bottom line is the onus is up to the buyer to do the homework.

Carmine

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Its a good point Carmine. I think that is the case with most of the products we purchase. I want every consumer to be responsible for the puchase choices they make. After all, we're free to do business with whom we wish. But, I also want recourse to the parties who represent the deal. In the auction scenario, the house represents a car as ABC, SUPER DUPER with options that make it 1 of kind. So the house get's money from the buyer, who, let's say relied on the representation. Then, when the car is not as represented, the house position is "sorry, not our representation, but rather, the seller". But the house has the benefit (read enhanced revenue) of representing this glorious car as 1 of a kind (read expensive) without ever having to stand behind the claim. Somehow that just doesn't feel good to me. I'm not bashing RS (I spent 3 full days and nights there in January and only 2 hours at the "other place". And will go again as soon as I can). I'm not trying to get the buyer to absolve himself of responsibility, but I am proposing the house take more responsibility for its representations.