Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

So are TastyKakes! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you bought a Yenko in 1969 and warranty replaced the motor in 1970, would that bother you more than if a body shop put your drive train in a 1969 donor car in 1970 after you totaled the car? The donor car really isn't the car you bought in my opinion. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said Sam, and this is exactly the way i think too.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

[ QUOTE ]
So are TastyKakes!


[/ QUOTE ]

By the way. Their gone!

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Ok here is something to ponder.

Car 1 say a ZL1 Bought new and raced by origional owner. Has ton's of paperwork from day 1 and picture history of car. After 10 years of racing car is so cut, bent and broke that origional owner can't afford to rebuild car using what is left of origional body. Origional owner finds a good doner body and retags car and continues racing car.(Origional body was crushed, hidden vin numbers along with it, since this was just a race car to origional owner) 30 years later "Fred lots a money" buys car and rebuilds back to show condition spending say $??,???. How much is car worth in todays market with the buyer knowing all the story?

Car 2 ZL1 Found by "Fred" no history, no paperwork, rusted to the ground. Removes hidden numbers and all tags and puts said pieces on a rust free doner car spending the same $??,??? as on car 1. Now same question how much is car 2 worth?

A: 1 worth more

B: 2 worth more

C: 1 and 2 worth same

D: None of the above

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Option E: Drink more beer, hoping that the can you're holding is actually part of car #1 https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

So car # 1 is a donor body with it's donor car hidden Vin intact if you look....and the long gone ZL1's Vin and supposed trim tags attached to this donor body? . And all re-attaching of tags was done years ago by a known or unknown person? . Car # 2 basically gets the same treatment by Fred differing only by the fact he "firewalls" the car to include the hidden Vin at time of identity transfer. . Personal opinions again....first I feel both cars would be of interest to the Feds and at risk of having all tags pulled and confiscated and new Vins assigned, greatly devaluing the cars if that happened. . On the above choices, I'll pick D with a side of wondering if Fred is going to the jailhouse for what he does to cars?? ~ Pete

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

"I'll pick D with a side of wondering if Fred is going to the jailhouse for what he does to cars?? "

Ahhhhh but Fred didn't have anything to do with car 1 having non matching hidden numbers!

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Is "Freds" last name Bain? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Yup...Fred may be in the clear legally for Car #1. . It's his #2 car that he'd be squirming on if the feds came calling? . He'd be on the hook financially pretty bad if the feds grab the tags and do a reissue Vin! ~ Pete

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

[ QUOTE ]
Option E: Drink more beer, hoping that the can you're holding is actually part of car #1 https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif Good thinking Marlin
Ken https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Thinking again, E is maybe the better answer afterall? ~ Pete

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

[ QUOTE ]
You mention these supercars as if they were people,but they are not.Unlike people,cars can exist as any sort of conglomeration of parts,and here are some scenarios.

[/ QUOTE ] I like the analogy because like people, each and every VIN# should be considered a one of a kind original, never to be duplicated and never to be reassigned. The idea of swapping #s also doesn't translate well to people, and it sort of highlights the obsurdity in how we look at the practice when it concerns valuable cars.

As a hypothetical, if I start calling myself Elvis Presley and start using his Social Security # does that mean I'm a "restored" Elvis Presley? Hardly...

Another good hypothetical would be if a soldier is killed in action and you took his dog tags off and put them around another member of his platoon's neck, does the dead soldier's mother now have her son back? Nope...the tags simply identify the soldier...switching them to any other soldier no matter how many ways he closely he resembles the original doesn't make him THE original, even if it's to his twin brother born only 1 minute later.

So lets get back to thinking of this in terms of Supercars, and remember why most folks didn't give a squat about #'s or tags on their cars back in the day.

The hidden VINs and body tags do not make the car, they simply identify the car to which they are attached, same as a Social Security # or a Military ID tag does for a person.

Saving the tags is not saving the car, it's merely giving the ruse that the car that was once identifed by those tags has been saved, when in fact it's another car posing as that original car.

If you remove a body tag and scrap what it was attached to...that car and the tag it represents is forever "dead' IMO.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

My head is kinda spinning because the possibilities are endless.

Regardless of the legality issues (re-tag, rebody, etc...), when does a car become something so different from what rolled off GM's line that someone draws a distinction?

In my mind, the classifications are as follows:

"Survivor" (unmolested, left as time treated them) - The best IMO. Patina adds so much class - i.e. the Sandlin Duece

"Restored" (repaint, repair, refurbish) - Most cars fit this category in varying degrees. Can be anything from a nice driver to a 1,000 point trailer queen. Very nice cars with sheet metal replacement, fresh paint, drivetrain rebuilt, etc... This can include replacement of missing original drivetrain components with correct parts.

"Rebuilt" - Car with significant body rebuilding (clipping, firewalling, retaging, etc...)

In order to have a "restored" car you need to have worked with core to come up with an end product.

Trying to keep a complex topic simple isn't an easy task. With the big bucks in many complex restos the resulting product of a "restored" car is a project from the heart rather than the mind (if that makes any sense).

Deep inside most of us know right from wrong. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif

I'm taking cover now, so let the comments fly.

Blair

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Wish I would've read Supercar Kids post prior to my response. He's headed my direction.

Blair

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

I like that nomenclature, original vs restored vs rebuilt.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Again it's all down to personal opinions just like any car deal for what something's worth....BUT the facts of the "redo" ARE on the table! . The right or wrong isn't hard for some but how many guys who transfer an identity in the process of the job want to point that out and prefer to call their car rebuilt, not restored? . This whole "restored TO original"....and things like "restoration motors" as a nice way to say restamp....it's "caveat empor" alright but deliberatly to take advantage of someone who's uninformed? . All personal opinions again of course. ~ Pete

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

So it is OK to take advantage of someone who is informed?

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

[ QUOTE ]
So it is OK to take advantage of someone who is informed?

[/ QUOTE ]


https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is "Freds" last name Bain? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I can tell you it ain't Eichhorst.......that's me https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Ask our Governments....they do it every day! . What I was more referring to was....some of the terms are meant to target and mislead those in the market with the funds but not the knowledge or sense to obtain the services of someone who knows (or claims to know?)? . Obviously not a buncha' gearheads and number addicts such as the likes that spend time hanging out on sites like this??? ~ Pete

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

I guess my scenerio should be that both car number on and car number 2 had the same amount of original sheet metal.If car number 2 used the original firewall with the hiden vin numbers and original subframe from the supercar,but the body was cut at the A pillars and the toeboards and replaced from that point back with a donor,is it any worse then a car that has had all the same parts replaced by new metal?The new metal car would have no original metal expect part of the firewall and maybe a scrap or two around the trunk weatherstripping,other then that,each panel would have to be replaced on at a time from the toeboars to the tailpanel,roofskin to floorpans.

Everybody talks about how bad a rebody is or how bad the new Camro bodies are,but how would you fix a car like one of these or would you even fix them?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-CHEV...1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-Chev...1QQcmdZViewItem

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

i have two yenko novas a 69 and a 70 they were both found in Maryland area junk yards they both have titles with both the vin and trim plates on them.now the bad part is one of the cars was on the bottom of the stack of five it is a complete loss and the other car was in the middle of another stack and it would also need a rebody or firewall job.in my case how would you handle this situation? for me just owning a peice of history like these is enough i dont have to have them restored or have the intention of doing anysort of rebody does that make me a fool or just to honest? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

i would restore them whatever it took, but thats just my opinion.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

I would do EVERYTHING I COULD to get the remains of these cars then I would decide what to do.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Rich, Some of these cars are not worth saving. If people didn't get caught up paying close to 200,000 for COPO's and 60-70,000 for Z/28's these 307 2 barrell cars wouldn't even be mentioned. All you have to say is 1969 camaro and look out. Why would anybody want all the pain and money to restore a standard type car (camaro, nova, mustang)etc. when they are available for about a 1/4 of the price of the resto, already done? We are not talking about anything rare here. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif Junk them! Its called recycling and move on. Some of these cars that turn up on ebay are not even good parts cars. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/headbang.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

i already have the the cars or whats left of them they are in the barn covered up with tarps,my wife thought i was an idiot for bringing them home untill i told her exactly what they were and now she understands why they are in the barn covered up like children even though they look like they went through a war but no matter what i will not sell these cars nor will i consider it these cars are a peice of history that most people dream of owning or they pay outragus amounts of money to get and i have two of them,they arent worth 250k but they are special to me because i have two peices of history im just not to sure how i should handle the cars at this point.just leave them alone or spend big money to fix them?both cars will need roofs,quarters and probly some frame machine work to get them strait but then again they are warm and safe where they are and well cared for(now)and cherished for like they are restored
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Please post a picture of the cars.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

[ QUOTE ]
Please post a picture of the cars.

[/ QUOTE ]
I second that... You're saying you have a Yenko Deuce AND a 69 427 Yenko Nova that were both found in a pile of cars in a junkyard? And they're in your posession now, covered up with tarps? Are these cars that are on the published VIN lists? What color are they? Did you get them from the same yard? Sorry for so many questions, but i've never heard of these cars existance...

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Seems like this thread loops. There are posts from page one here on page 19!

I bought a 68 442 from the original owner, numbers match, got the Protect-O-Plate and even found a broadcast sheet. Being a Canadian car it can be even documented through GM Vintage Vehicle Services. As much as it pained me, I parted it out. It came from Ontario, and the salt really did a number on it. It needed sheetmetal (except the firewall) and even the frame had nasty rot. Am I nuts? I'd like to think not. My older brother (he's an a--hole) suggested that we grab a nicely restored IDENTICAL local twin - it was even the correct green w/blk vinyl roof. I still had the motor/trans, how hard would it have been? BTW, I still have the tags, but I've stamped XXXXXX over the last digits.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Mike , Joe as you both well know its the cold time of season for us east coasters it would take an act of congress to get to them to take some pics right now as soon as i get some stuff moved out of the way ill post the pics for you to see
Joe these cars do exist and they are on the vin lists thats the only way i know what they are because there is nothing left to ID them by visuall at least,these cars were found by me while i was looking for a few parts for my fathers 54 caddy,we have always had novas in the family we currently have 6 total from restored to full race so when i saw them i was inclined to look and see if there was anything left i could ad to my collection i wrote down the vin's and started to check them out and see what they might have been in there heyday and i found out alot more than i ever dreamed of

anyways one car was found a mile off the road in the back of an old junkyard about 30min from VA and the other car came from just east of cumberland ive been trying to get these cars for over 3 years and the owners of the junk yards wouldnt sell them for the longest time and i finally got them to sell so i bought both of them about a year apart
im not sure of the color of the 69 car the trim tag was smashed pretty bad in the accident that sent it to the bone yard in the first place but the 70 was red i believe with black interior
i know its kind of hard to believe and trust me i would have to wonder if someone else had told me the story but i swear it to be true
David

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

David W... I don't know what the weather is like in Maryland, but here in PA a digital camera will work just fine in the cold. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif It's actually supposed to be in the 50s today...How about working on getting some pics of these cars? I think there are more than 2 of us that are anxious to see them.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Yes, it is a beautiful day in NJ. How about just providing the VINs so we all know a little more about your cars. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

pull my finger.... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif I have a yenko with 10 miles, totalled out when new and stored in a shed since. Not..... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Great topic of debate. There will always be differing points on what constitutes a rebody, and what part of the car makes up the "core" if you will. Although there are a number of people here who have no tolerance for any type of "shell" replacement, its interesting to note that GM made it possible to do that very thing by making body shells available for purchase. Note the listing at the top of this page from the 1970 Chevrolet Parts & Accessories catalog. What's your take on a supercar that received a new body shell from GM in 1970, or a car that was repaired years later using an NOS body shell? Some seem to be OK with replacing as many parts as necessary individually, but not if those parts are replaced as a unit, which was possible with these body shells.

http://www.shapeconsulting.com/cars/bodyshell.jpg

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

OK now, be honest, how many of you have just run those part numbers to see if there are any of those bodies sitting around somewhere????

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Those are Glass numbers showing there.
The actual Body #'s were printed later in a seperate manual.
This wasn't as common as we would believe,so very few Dealers even requested parts & pricing info for group 10.001 to begin with.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Very interesting...would the Manufacturer be able to get around the VIN tag switching laws ? I bet they could. Or would they have to re-VIN the new body ? hmmmm

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Wow! Just read all 20 pages of this thread, very interesting discussion of this topic. My tastes for these supercars fall on the side of all original in condition for ownership/collectibility.
I believe the value associated with these rare musclecars should certainly be relevant to the condition of the vehicle. An unmolested, orginal in factory condition as built should be worth the absolute most. There can be nothing like it to compare with. I think the word original is very much overused, and is not proper to describe any part of a car that has been refurbished, restored, rebuilt, repaired, etc. My opinion is that a car that has been tampered with in any way, no longer is the same car that was factory built. Replacing most of the sheetmetal or rebodying a vehicle has the same end result, it is no longer the car it started life as, period.
Probably, none of us (or very few) have a vehicle that can be considered original.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

While on the topic of rebodying, I thought I'd bring up this example:

http://memturbo.com/pontiac/images/wpe1.gif
http://memturbo.com/pontiac/images/wpe4.gif

This is a Canadian car, 1 of N (where N tends toward 0) Pontiac 2+2s with a 427/390 and M21.

The car is a total basket case; even the firewall is cracked. Being built in Canada, though, its fully documented by GM Canada.

I have a 427/390 M21 2+2 clone about to be built at Musclecar Restorations in Wisconsin. Its on my own Laurentian that was first car 20 years ago, and that my Dad bought new in '69.

Now, for my purposes, I'm doing it because the car is special to me and me only, and I'm not trying to impress anyone with it or pass it off as real. But if someone else was dumping 100K into a car, it would be very tempting to tag the trim tag, VIN, and other items from this total basket case as the basis of such a restoration.

I think -that- would be the kind of thing everyone agrees on as "bad": transferring only the identity of a basket case to a donor vehicle.

Where the line between that and rebuilding a basket case by transferring parts for B to A rather than from A to B is a discussion I'll leave open to you guys!

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

I've seen this car posted elsewhere...very cool..can't wait to see the one you are building/making...very unusual..do you have the emblems and the side gills ? What else is different on these ?