Re: Judges
 

BeLair is a closet Pontiac person, don't listen to that.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...elairSucks.gif

Re: Judges
 

"I have seen that smiling face in my rear view mirror."

Not unless your driving a 454 LS6 and even then, nothing would be guaranteed. I raced 4 of them at the November 13th Factory Stock race at Englishtown, every one of them saw my Pontiac RAIV Judge tailights!

One of them, the LS6 car that came in second I used to own!
It had a factory restored fresh LS6 motor.
-----------------------------------------------
Look at the Pure Stock drag results in Michigan, you see RAIV's and LS6 cars running neck and neck

Re: Judges
 

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Judges
 

I knew I would get one of you guys !!! SuperG....Lets meet on the street...and yes I will wait a 1/2 hour for your car to stop overheating and cool down !!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/headbang.gif

Re: Judges
 

We gotta get Belair a booster seat so he can see over the dash before you guys race.

Re: Judges
 

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif

Re: Judges
 

Was the RAV a 400?I'm assuming it is since the RAlV is.

Re: Judges
 

RA-V had a couple of variations, 303 & 400. There were some other cid variations and supposedly had other RA designations. Depends on who at Pontiac (John Sawruk is probably the best) as to whether they were actual designations beyond RA-V. 400 is the most common talked about. The 303 was to be for Firebirds and 400 for GTO's.

Re: Judges
 

I heard of the 400 RAV but not the 303 RAV thats interesting.Why the smaller motor in the firebird?

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What was the HP difference between the 303 and the 400?

Re: Judges
 

Jeff

For starters go back and take a look at this thread:

TUNNEL PORT RA V

Re: Judges
 

Thanks for the thread I check it out and found Milt Schornacks website.Interesting site very good information but I never once read about anybody mentioning the size of the RAV.All I saw was 428's and a 421 mentioned never a 400 or 303?I did check out the attachments that were posted and I saw that the RAV's HP was 565 inpressive.

Re: Judges
 

Don't forget about 366.

There are a couple of board members that have RAV stuff and Tom is probably one of the top in the country with effort and rarities.

Though it's not proven on paper, Sixtiesmucle has what I perceive to be one of the most desirable Pontiacs in the country. With an undocumented trip to Pontiac Engineering via Knafel Pontiac, the motor in the Tin Indian may be one of the most exclusive.

Want to really dive of in some controversy go read this thread:

1970 gto judge ram air IV
70 Judge RAIV and V continuation

Re: Judges
 

The 303 RA V was developed for SCCA Trans Am series racing. This engines did not perform very well in the series and development stopped. There were some 69 Firebirds running in the series back in day the with 302 Chevys in them. I still wish the 400 RA V's were released in factory cars like Judges and TA's. Nascar tried to use a RA V in 71. David Pearson drove a 71 GTO with a V in it. His team only raced the car for a partial season they could'nt keep the engines together. Ray Nichols engineering built the cars for Pearson, it was campaigned as the number 33 and the number 17 that year. Check out the pics, it's the only GTO that I know of to ever race in Nascar. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Re: Judges
 

another

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last one

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A good article on RAV is in he May/June 2001 Pontiac Enhusiast.

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The variation in size of this motor is unreal 303,366,400.I always thought the RAV was just a 400 you learn something new every day.Thanks for the info.

Re: Judges
 

Like I said to steved the variation in size is unreal.You mentioned that the 303 was for raceing and the 400 was going in street cars how about the 366?Was the 366 just an experiment?

Re: Judges
 

Have you found many RAIV cars, what part of Cal. are you in? Love so.Cal, esp. San Diego https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Re: Judges
 

The Nascar Dajudge posted ran the 366 if I'm not mistaken, I had a pic of it with 366 on the hood but I can't find it yet.

Re: Judges
 

Eric

Did you see the post I made about the one RAIV Judge that sat in Muskogee since 1976, never moved an inch until a couple of years ago after I told a friend about it. All these years Gary and I never got serious about the car, having no clue it was a IV other than the crazy that owned it claimed it was. You know how those stories usally turn out. Well we lost out on that one.

Unfortunately the guy that got it, hacked it to pieces. The frame is in the possesion of the guy that owns the 69 BB Rag Camaro, and the motor, tranny, and HD390 rear are possibly still floating around Muskogee. Long story short, the drivetrain was stolen out of the car in 1975 while the car was in a local repair shop.

My best friend bought a RAIV intake back in the early 80's from some one down there, had to be from that motor. I suspect the motor to still be lurking around in some shed down there.

And that 71 Judge I stripped in 79 that the motor ended up in a station wagon, much to my surprise some one local read that post and knows where the wagon still is not far from here. WOW.

Re: Judges
 

Apple Valley in located in so.Cal. its in the hi desert.

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How many of these motors(303,366,400) did Pontiac make?

Re: Judges
 

Here's what I came up with about a year ago: RAV page I never did any follow ups because of a lack of help from Pontiac engineers. I found one engineer; Jonny Williams, that came in on the tail of the program but he did not offer any data or facts. Either time has erased all such info, or they still conceal it.

I saw John Sawruk at the POCI earlier this year, he had a few "secret" documents he shared on the over head. Non concerning RAV, but it's safe to say such secret documents did exist at one time concerning RAV. Just a shame we will probably never see them.

Re: Judges
 

Did you by any chance pick this out of the build sheet I posted:

https://www.yenko.net/attachments/58434-5ra.jpg

This air cleaner is on a portion of the RAIV GTO sheets, and the cleaner was installed on the assembly line!!!!! On 70 GTO's, it is the same as the RAIV cleaner except that it has indentions for the float adjustments on a Holley carb.

Re: Judges
 

Thanks for providing me that RAV page.It seems that anything that is a mistery wheather its a certain car or engine its a big secret on production numbers.Everything is hush hush.

Re: Judges
 

My answer would me no with the built sheet,I dont recall confronting you about a built sheet or getting any info from you about a built sheet.

Re: Judges
 

My cars build sheet says the same thing regarding the air cleaner. All 70 Ram Air pans have the indentations for the Holley carbs. That's the easiest way to tell a 69 from a 70 lower Ram Air pan. The Nascar engine was the 366. Here's a pic of that car. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Re: Judges
 

Personal Opinion as to Why 400 RAIV Pontiacs can even run with LS6 454 Chevys
Comparisons
Chevy Pontiac
Heads GREAT GOOD
Camshafts GOOD GOOD
Internal Parts GOOD GOOD
Carbs FAIR FAIR
Intake TERRIBLE EXCELLENT
Exhaust POOR GOOD
Cold fuel charge POOR GOOD
Overall weight HEAVY AVERAGE
1/4 miles times= low 13's low 13's
-------------------------------------------------
Put a good aftermarket intake,carb and headers on
That BBC...and the race is over, once the BBC can breathe
properly Chevy wins.
But set up exactly as the factory did, The RAIV Pontiac can hang and even defeat the big heavy Chevelle most of the time. Pontiac made Excellent street machines,they were not de-tuned race engines, like the HEMI Mopar's and Ford's, or even the BBC.
---------------------------------------------

RAIV Don't leave home without it

Re: Judges
 

Nope, did'nt see that one. It's a shame alot of rare cars beat, & parted. But, that helps the value of the ones left. Alot yrs ago had to do w/value. I had a 69 RAIII TA, 27 k miles, but all driveline changed, due hard race life. Car parked in 1974/5, sat & got rusty. I in 92, sold it to friend, after gathering most all parts. He lost interest, sold of all good parts, & gave me mint int. back. But, in 94, a RAIII 69 was worth maybe 20k, not worth redoing a basket case. I also had a complete orig 69 auto TA, rusty beyond belief, parts were alot more than I pd for whole car. At that time I had just got my 69 RAIV TA, it was 100% rustfree, & complete, so I kept it, & over 2001/2 had frame off done. It is a true concours car, but when I got it, I got "razed" that 20k was too much! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

Re: Judges
 

[ QUOTE ]
Personal Opinion as to Why 400 RAIV Pontiacs can even run with LS6 454 Chevys

Look at the Pure Stock drag results in Michigan, you see RAIV's and LS6 cars running neck and neck

[/ QUOTE ]

You Poncho boys had better get your act together! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif I wanna say the quickest Pure Stock RAIV A-bodies have been in the 12.90-13.00 range...while a few of the LS6 Chevelles have gone 12.40s. The quickest Pontiacs to date are a couple of RAII 'Birds, which have gone 12.3s...I believe one of them was Jim Mino's old car.

Re: Judges
 

[ QUOTE ]
You Poncho boys had better get your act together! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif I wanna say the quickest Pure Stock RAIV A-bodies have been in the 12.90-13.00 range...while a few of the LS6 Chevelles have gone 12.40s. The quickest Pontiacs to date are a couple of RAII 'Birds, which have gone 12.3s...I believe one of them was Jim Mino's old car.

[/ QUOTE ]

But Rob, you have to remember, Mino's RAII Firebirds ran mid-12's way back in the 1980's during these shootouts, when LS6 cars were running 14's, COPO's were running 13's. These RAII's are still running the same times, yet the LS6 cars and COPOS have suddenly started running low 12's and high 11's! There's also a certain W-31 Olds that was running 15.2's a few years ago, and now runs 13.0's. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif I guess if someone can explain this, they can also explain Barry Bonds gaining 50 pounds of muscle and hitting 70 home runs at age 40 without illegal drugs. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

The Mino's never invested in high dollar extrude honed stuff, or had the big bucks to use dyno facilities whenever they wanted. The Mino's cars were always dead stock, as was seen in the lengthy article in the late 1990's where they tore the RAII down. Didn't even have ported heads. Just careful assembly, careful blueprinting, and attention to detail.

So what took the Chevy guys so long to catch up?
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif

Re: Judges
 

I agree with the above:

There is stock and there is STOCK. At this years Pure Stock Drags, 21 cars went DEEP into the 12's. Is this possible in Pure Stock condition?? I will leave this debate up to you.

And BTW a Pontiac RAII did beat a Chevy LS6 for quickest ET between the 2 cars. So what!!....different race, different day = different results. AND I'm a Pontiac Fan.

"the quickest Pure Stock RAIV A-bodies have been in the 12.90-13.00 range" Whats wrong with that??? Thats FAST..
---------------------------------------------------
Lowest ET:
Can a Pure Stock 63' Sport Fury run 12.00's@117MPH ????

Re: Judges
 

"I guess if someone can explain this, they can also explain Barry Bonds gaining 50 pounds of muscle and hitting 70 home runs at age 40 without illegal drugs." https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/blush.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Judges
 

If you think about it the 1970 GTO/Judge weighs in about the same as the 70 Chevelle give or take 100-200lbs.So you would think the Chevelle with the LS-6 would stomp the GTO with the RAlV.In a earlier post someone said that it was a even match up.The GTO with a 400 motor vs Chevelle 454 motor thats pretty impressive on the GTO's part.

Re: Judges
 

That RA IV must have ben a tad under rated ...

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The RalV was rated at 370hp I red some were that the real hp was around 400-420hp.Is it true or false?I dont know.

Re: Judges
 

Hey Mike! I was wondering if you were awake! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

The same thing that made Mino's car lethal, was the same thing that put 21 cars into the 12s at the Pure Stocks in Stanton. We just started reading the same rule book as Jim! No extrude honing or any of that other crap is allowed, either...in fact, "Certified Stock" was created to do away with all that hokey business. Blueprinting is the key, but I attribute a lot of it to getting the compression where it's *supposed* to be. Case in point: I put together an L72 exactly as the factory would have in '69, no blueprinting just slinging parts together, and it came in at 10.2:1, and went 12.70s@108+ in our Camaro...I then added 2 points of compression, and in the exact same 3800 pound Camaro it runs 12.3@113+.

I'm in full agreement the RAIV was underrated, and I'd personally love to see someone step up and show us how it's done...any takers? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: Judges
 

Rob, you DID wake me up! And to think my psychiatrist said not to worry about the "rats" crawling on my arms. Dern LS6's... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

In the old Musclecar Review series, Dan Jensen built stone stock engines to test on a dyno. He used virgin heads, stock carbs, etc., to see how close the factory ratings were. They pulled over 400 hp from an A-body RAIV engine, then discovered that the 69 Firebird RAIV exhaust manifolds flowed another 20 hp over the A-body units due to a smoother chassis exit. I think they managed about 420 hp from the 69 Firebird RAIV configuration in stock trim.

I'm kidding with Rob and the LS6 guys. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif My point is that for the first 10 years of the stock drags, there were only a couple of cars running in the 12's, and we used to ask, "Where are the Chevys? Where are the LS6's, Yenkos, RAIV's, and W-30's?" It seemed to be all 440's and Hemis, Stage 1 Buicks, and your occasional 68 Firebird RAII or 455HO.

After a certain SS396 Nova ran 11's and all the "secrets" were disclosed in MCR, the gloves came off, and purpose-built, bend-the-rules cars started to be assembled, with a seemingly limitless budget, and they began to dominate the Pure Stocks.

In reality, all the great Musclecars ran 13's and 14's in stock trim, but I simply love watching the current Pure Stocks to see what these cars can do today. I'm glad the LS6 and the COPO's stepped up and are battling it out with the Hemis and 440+6 cars. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

There are several Pontiac people that can build a lethal RAIV setup using stock parts, but I tell ya, they don't seem to be very interested in Pure Stock! Jim Hand just wrote THE definitive book on building a Pontiac V-8 using stock parts (can be picked up at Amazon.com, Border's, or Barnes & Noble), and his muffled, 9.5 to 1 compression, 4000 lb. 71 Lemans Wagon has been running 11's for years now with stock parts, RAIV cam, d-port heads, cast iron intake, etc. His engine, in a 3500 lb. Firebird, with 10.5 to 1 compression, would be deadly. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif