Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

search his name on yahoo,remember his age,like ALL the other 60s "legends"LOL

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Jeffh has 4 articles. I believe the one you mentioned (Rodder and Super Stock) is the one you are talking about. One is Cars Mag, An unknown Mag.with Alex Walordy (I think an ex Pontiac emp) and one by Phase III (Baldwin Motion) article. Each one has a different perspective but some use similar pictures. Several show complete engines and some installed. Good for discussion.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

[ QUOTE ]
Tom, anyway to get Milt's two cents on it?



[/ QUOTE ]

Steve,

In a way, you already have, since the information that Bill has posted on here about that car came from Milt Schornack, Dave Warren, & Jim Wangers (Bill is friends with all of them and has been for over 20 years). They told him that story years ago, and it has not changed since.

In regards to Miltís GTO; it is a brown í69 GTO that he worked on when he owned his own speed shop after his Royal Pontiac days. He purchased the car a couple of years ago from the original customer who has had the car all this time.

Rita [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

PS~ I do not understand what this has to do with the '70 Judge in question [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Rita

This car is orange, and only the editor talked about it. There was no comentary from Milt or the others. I would very much like to here about him in general, and that particular car. But I'm on time out from all this tonight..... about to watch a movie with MrsSteved. I took a pic just a few seconds ago so you all can see who your in discussion with. Everyone have a great night!!!

Steve and Shaunna

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

steve, nice pic. now don can print a copy off and hang it on his wall so he will know who to look for now. lol [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img]

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

[ QUOTE ]
Rita

This car is orange, and only the editor talked about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know that Steve [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]. I read that article when this last came up in discussion. That Orange Judge, which was owned by Jess Jesson of Colonial Pontiac, actually had a RAM AIR III in it. That shot was taken at the Florida test session for "press purposes" only. This data has been confirmed by both Milt Schornack and Jim Wangers (who were both there). Look at the bottom of the photo. It states "Photos by GM Photographic", which means it was given to the magazine to use. As he stated previously, Bill has original photos of that car with and without various signs from that test session.

BTW...I'm glad to see that you do "have a life" afterall. I was starting to worry. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Rita [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

sorry... but..... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img]

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Oh yeah!!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Best line of that movie was when GTO driver got his first ride in that 55 Chevy and all he could say was "Holy $hiiiit... What are you trying to do? blow my mind?" [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

We raced with Milt at the GTO Nats this summer. He had the brown RAV car there. Also sat in on a presentation he had. He had slides from the old days at Royal. A really informative and entertaining presentation he put on. Here is his info off his business card:

www.miltschornack.com 586-468-3684 2-7PM

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

[ QUOTE ]

Again this has no bearing on a car that went to engineering, which I believe everyone has agreed that it did go there.

[/ QUOTE ]

By the way Steve...Exactly, WHO is "everyone"? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

"Inquiring minds would like to know!"

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Jim

Cool page!!! I love that brown 69, very nice set up.

Thanks,

Steve

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Rita

It's a holiday weekend, you can take a break from all this if you like.

Sweet dreams,

Steve

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

[ QUOTE ]
But I'm on time out from all this tonight.....

[/ QUOTE ]

Steve,

I thought you were on a "time out" tonight? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Rita [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img]

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

I have talked to Jim Wangers and Milt Schornack about that orange Judge with white interior. They both at different times and locations told me that the car was actually the Limelight Green performance brochure,postcard and dealer wall poster GTO that after that use was repainted orange and set up as a Judge. That car had a Ram Air IV originally.
I have left a message with Milt and I plan on having him read all this.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Sweet.

Rita she let me out of time out after I gave her a kiss.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Bob if your talking about the limelight green 69 that a 8X10 came with the invoice way back when you still called GM for a copy. The date on the 8X10 is 9/17/68, so the time frame could work out. The green one has power antenna, hideaways, and remote mirror. The Judge in Super Stock, the only one of the three you can make out is the mirror. The other thing, the Judge has the rear quarter moldings which was a later option I believe. You can't tell for sure, but the green GTO doesn't appear to have them.

On the Judge, the frame under the rocker panel looks like 30 years of weathering. That's kinda strange being it would have been less than a year old at the time of the pic. I suppose it could be mud or sand, seeing they were in Florida that would make sense.

Would be interesting to know if that was the green car, non the less.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

I recall a guy out here in SoCalif that did a Clone RAV 69 Trans Am; I believe it was a convert. I also recall years ago he was in contact with a gentleman in New Mexico who had some of these original RAV parts. Took me for a ride in it; WOW! I was impressed and Im a BB Camaro guy! That car kicked b...! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Had an interesting phone call yesterday from the man that worked the assembly line back in 70 (the man that provided us with the perfect build sheet). He stated the engineering door was just a few feet away from the exit of the assembly line. It was his opinion that the cars that went to engineering, went there the day of the ship date on the invoice. And the most interesting thing.... there was one man that was responsible for running the cars through the assembly line that would end up going to engineering, he is still in contact with this man.

Cool huh?

He is a very nice gentleman, pleasure talking to him and hearing his stories. He hopes to talk to his engineering connection tomorrow and give us some info.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Cool. More information is always a good thing.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Also got this from the person I bought a copy of the engineering book from Ebay, FYI haven't got it yet in the mail. He said that his motor is WY 648695 (he is going to get us the date code also), so combined with the article motor 689539 that leaves a 156 total count between the two if they are indeed consecutive. From what we been told in here, the production number may have only been on crate motors. Still hoping to hear from one other person that has 3 of them.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

The 648695 motor has A210 date code also. He also wanted me to mention it has the transfer lug, I can't tell from the pic if the 648539 motor has it but it must if cast in the same day.

So there may be at least 156 crate RAV's possibly all cast in the same day.

I just want one of them, that's not asking too much is it?

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

That's assuming they numbered them sequentially and didn't jump by 5 or 10. That's really interesting to find these blocks cast the same date though. Does anybody have any information on the Trans Am 303 motors and if they were dated similarly. There were obviously several complete assemblies sitting side by side in some of the pictures.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Jeff

Yes I'm just assuming, it does seem like a good possibility. I too was intrigued by the casting date, I would be interested to know just how many blocks GM could cast in one day of a particular engine.

I have nothing on the 303 or 366 engines.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

I was told there was only 25 short deck 303 motors.My block is #14.REMEMBER there was lots of deveopmental RA V stuff,blocks,heads,cranks,intakes,dist, etc that were never done as assm. engines.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Tjs44, what is the casting date on your motor? It seems like Pontiac was more prepared to make the 303 available as production and for racers than the 400.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

cant get that for you right now,its in the machine shop having needle bearing cam bearings put in.When I got it,it was setup for drysump oiling.The oil pump hole was drilled and tapped and plugged.Tom

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

One more just provided for the number crunching:

WY 689547 A210 481708

He also has more and some 428 RAV blocks he will try to get us the numbers on.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

O.K., I asked Micky to check, and, here are the codes that are on the motor that came with my "Tin Indian" Judge. I am certain this motor was NOT installed at the factory, but, maybe the numbers will tell us what it IS.

9792968 K1 68 cast on back.

545687 EO-3777 #12 stamped on front.

I have my thoughts, but, I'm curious what other's info shows.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Mike

My 428 is:

68 GP 428 YH 164333 Date code 1157 block 9792968

Which is the same block number.

My Uncle has a 428 I pulled out of a 69 Bonnie, it has:
YH 0403824

That was all he could get right now. He was on his way back to work and the motor is in the car.

Don't know it that helps, I'm not sure. Your "EO-3777 #12" is something I'm completely unfamiliar with.

Don't suppose it has the angled main caps? That would be a heck of a deal!!!

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

According to McCarthy's book the RA V 428 used the same block casting as the early 400, 9792968. I'm wondering if the 545687 could be the designation for the early 400. Again, according to the book, the 428 would also be cast 545887. I suppose typos do happen, so, I'm hoping someone has more info. If your 428 is that same casting number, does it have the extra webbing in the valley? Why does my block have both of those numbers, one cast & one stamped??

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

That is a negative on both of the blocks I have, just regular webbing.

The guy that just gave me the last RAV numbers has two of the crossed main cap 428's, he is suppose to get the numbers for us. That could shed some light.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Steve,as far as I know and have seen there were no large jurnal RA V parts,the 428 block was a stock block with angled caps.ALL the TRUE RA V cranks I have seen and owned were 3in mains to go in the RA V block.I owned a Kellogs 4in stroke and do own a Kellogs 4.21 stroke.WHY use a 428 block, when they could have just used a a 455 SD block and used the same 990 forged 4 in stroke crank.I really believe the 428 block was just used to test components.I know the one that Lance had was VERY broken up.It goes along with what I said earlyer about the MANY developmental parts that were out there.Have been told there were only 3 4.21 stroke 3in main Kellogs cranks made,a few more 4in stroke.FYI,Tom

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Tom

This is way out of my league, I can only go on what you and Lance say. I just called it RAV to be calling it something, it's definitely not a normal motor if it has crossed mains.

The numbers Lance has may help Mike, I don't know. I'm going back through my books tonight, but I don't ever remember seeing anything like Mike posted.

Steve

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

The numbers on the front of the block are part #. Numbers on the back are the casting #. 1969 numbers are, part #545686, casting #9792968. 1970 numbers are part #545686, casting #481708. The ram air experimental 428 block is cast GME 9792968 and stamped RA-38. Angle bolt428 block cast #545887 dated (F309)June 30, 1969. All Ram Air V blocks would have a distributor hole that is larger then all other Pontiac blocks.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Super duty 455 blocks have the larger dist hole also.FYI,Tom

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Totally my bad on Lance's motors, he did say that he let go of the torn up block. That may have been the 428. His others are 400's.

Mike... I am on page 214 of McCarthy's Performance book. There is a 400 block he talks about with "545686". Very close indeed. I think some of the info that pontiac6269 guy posted may be right off this page.

My question would be, do the production numbers run sequential on your block like the WY's I've been getting info on. Difference may just be the year usage intended.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Thanks, but, still no info on a part number 545687. Any idea what that is? There are no other numbers on this block.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Can't help on the # you gave. However, most of the other numbers are here. It is regarded as a good web site for pontiac number crunching info. It has the 2 letter codes for the RA V but no casting #'s.
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
http://www.wallaceracing.com/cgi-bin/engine3.cgi

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Tom

Just had a guy email me that has 2 blocks stamped "DS 1941A". That sound like an over the counter bare block V?