Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Hey Sixties...shut up will ya ! Olered there was a 62 SD GP in Arizona a while back...it's probably restored by now...Allan G. was the owner...he used to live in my neck of the woods...pretty sure it was a steel car.The Pete McCarthy book mentioned somewhere in this thread is a great Pontiac HP book....I used to look in on some of the Pontiac boards (Ames) until it got really nasty..some of those guys got pretty foul about certain engine builders etc...I think they had to close down the board or change it to try and keep it civil. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

-----Thanks Belair.Years ago I was at a match race at Milan with Red Alert.I was supposed to be racing Porterfeild but he broke.A black 62 GP showed up for the show with a gold inset and Royal emblems as well as 421 emblems on it.I never got a chance to get close to the car that day,or talk to the owner.I sure wish I had.Other Pontiac people from the greater Detroit area have since mentioned the car in passing as a SD Grand Prix.Unfortunatly,I have never seen the car again........Bill S

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Belair, The 62 in question from Chicago is the one is AZ. Allen moved a few years ago. Car has been restored for at least 8 years or so now by Scott Tiemann. Its all steel.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I'm callin' you out B.A. I'm eatin' my Wheaties, and, I'll see you at Vettefest. Better bring your posse.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Mike
Bob won't be at VetteFest...But his Car will. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I got a Vette that goes in a straight line or road coarse, I want some of this action too. We eat spinach down here.

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Steve, I have to admit that the "WY" stamping looks pretty bad if it was done by the factory. The casting # is for a 1970 400 block. But I'm not an expert on stampings so I'll keep an open mind. The fact that there is no VIN on the block will definitely hurt the chances of ever proving it was installed in the car originally. What's the casting date on the block?

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Jeff

I've seen one of the over the counter blocks in real life, it had the big numbers above where the code would be but no code. A very interesting block with all the extra webbing.

Will see if he will shoot the casting number, I'm still very interested to see if the flywheel has a GM number on it.

Steve

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I did find a couple of pictures of some Pontiac engine code stampings on the web and they looked similar in the fact that the "W" was stamped lighter and the second letter was stamped heavier. But they seem to line up with each other.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

If the "WY" were hand stamped in engineering, that would explain the lack of alignment. I don't know anything about how and why codes were stamped on engines, so I couldn't address this.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

guys I new here and have to jump in on the V post.I deal in early SD and RA V stuff.I have a couple SD clone cars,one of which was in the Nov.PHR mag.Have pictures of my early car in Petes book,been around the pontiac thing since 62.I have a 69 T/A with the only RA V alu block motor running in a car,it was on PHR TV.Facts,the factory built 100 400 RA V crate motors,they came without exhaust manifolds.They made 303 motors also but were very rare.The most rare part for ANY RAV project was factory exhaust.There is a pic in Petes book of a set on the Purely PMD GTO,said to be the only set made.I have a set for the T/A.The motor was never approved for smog so the factory would have NEVER installed one as the fine was great.There were lots of dealer installed engines.FYI,Tom

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

it still amazes me that a few of you are hanging up on the smog certification. these cars were sent to knafel to race. i again ask someone to answer the question do you think they built an engine like the ra 5 and never installed it in a car to test it???? surely nobody is that closed minded.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

im sure they were put in test cars but never sent to a dealer with the engine,EVEN for racing.The fine was just too big.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Yeah, and just how big was the fine?

Your view is speculation, would you not agree?

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

yes,as YOURS!

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

FYI This is now the 12th most viewed and 5th most replied to post in the history of the board!

Keep it going guys you've already blown by the infamous Douglass*Yenko discussion in terms of posts and are right on its heels for views. Still a long way to go to beat the 288 posts and 9210 views in for the 70 Yenko Deuce discussion in Supercars & Musclecars Wanted thread. Or the 9380 views Jim Mattison's research has garnered in COPO - U.S.A.

It's a long way off, but as you guys keep saying "never say never". [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Some fact and some speculation, and I have tried to be clear between the two. Along with the help of the owner, I have attached more files than anyone to help the discussion. And aside from the one 1973 magazine article, no one has posted documentation supporting it didn't happen.

I am still curious if you know what the fines would have been, probably more important some type of sanctions? Or does anyone out there have a clue?

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Whether or not anyone is "right" is their own opinion. In my opinion, If there were any RA V cars, They had to be put into a street car at some point, and I think most people would agree that you can't really find the overall performance of an engine without it being in the car. The car limits the engine (steering, cornering, etc.). Who's to say that the engines were taken out after testing? If GM could get away with putting the engine in a couple of the Judges, Firebirds etc., why wouldn't they? It's all about the consumer, not the Govt. Just exactly how big was the fine for a non-smog-legal car? Maybe it would've been worth it. Think of the price of those cars! I'm sure no RA V would've been cheap, and GM could've paid off the Govt. for their "fine" with the profit from the car. And who's to say that there wasn't some Govt. conspiracy where they let GM put the RA V in a couple of cars? What would the Govt. care if there were a few cars that weren't exactly legal? Pay them enough money and they'll keep their trap shut.

Just trying to push some buttons; add more fuel to the fire! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

i think the fact that they were delivered to knafel to race would probably clear them to the point that they could kiss some rear and play it off as a misunderstanding between the dealer and engineering dept. probably can someones job that wasnt all that important and make it look like they really came down on this misbehavior.

again, i dont think most people realize how important that knafel pontiac was to pontiac racing back then. anyone around drag racing knew about the tin indian cars and always knew they were not any normal race car.

hey sixtiesmuscle, how did you come about that tin indian of yours? did you know anything about this controversy then? what explanation if any was ever given about the memo special equipment?

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Ask Joel Rosen about fines and how "easy" it is for the gov't to let cars slide.....the gov't is the one that shut him down in the early/mid 70's...I'm sure that pontiac would have had no problems paying the fines, but some the people making the decision to let these cars through may have valued their job as well...companies really don't like it when you cost them money - they hire you to make money for them....just another person's point of view.... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Just talked to Pete about the V cars,he had a conversation a couple weeks ago with Jim Wangers and he said there were NO RA V cars shipped from the factory.The test car was a RAIV car in Fla.They shipped a complete RAV engine with exhaust manifolds with the car,with instructions to pull the engine after the test and return it to the factory which it was.There are many pontiac "GURUs" that have been telling SO many lies for SO long they now believe them a fact.Bill,Milt and Jess are a few of those guys.Tom

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Did you ask Pete why he has nothing in his book concerning Knafel?

And exactly what is it that removes him from "GURU" status?

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I received a lead from a broker, and, bought the car from Arlen Vanke. I got it in the condition you can see on Micky Hale's website. Arlen rebuilt the motor for me, and, I never checked the casting numbers until I had it delivered to Micky's shop. I assumed it was the engine that was in it when it raced because that's what Arlen told me. The block is a RA V, and, it has RA IV heads. That's all I know, and, I don't really care where or when the engine was originally installed. If these cars were Nickeys, Yenkos, or Baldwin Motion cars, the fact that they were converted for racing at the leading hi po dealership would be a GOOD thing. As evidence of this, if I'm not mistaken, the highest value paid for a Yenko Camaro , at the time at least, was for Brian's yellow car which had the original 427 removed, and, a race motor installed at Yenko.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Regarding the lack of Knafel info in Pete's book, there was never any love lost between Knafel & Wangers. I think that's putting it politically correct. Pete & Wangers are buddies. Pretty simple really. The rivalry between Royal/Wangers and Knafel was intense, and, never really subsided. Any other opinions on this one?

Hey, where's DaJudge?? Hopefully you've reread my posts. I'm ready for that apology now.

1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

There NEVER were any RAV motors installed from Pontiac into ANY cars sold at a dealership period.

They were racing "parts" motors that you had to complete yourself. There was one "test" car which originally had a RAIV in it. The RAV would have needed the bigger cubic inches of 1970 (455+) to be even close to streetable.
Too much head flow. There are some who are still racing these motors today into the 9's.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Mike, My point regarding shutting up was meant to be that if I had a Camaro that was represented as a Baldwin Motion Car and did not have the proper paperwork to document the vehicle people would doubt it's legitimacy no matter who verbally verified the car. Now on to the Ram Air V GTO I have seen other GTO's with the same memo and they were not RA V cars. As I have stated before the car is no slouch it's a RA IV car that is rare. I believe 1 of 804 in which there were 325 RA IV Judge hardtop 4 speeds. If Knafel Pontiac put the RA V in the car at the dealership that is way cool as well. That's as close to a Motion or Nickey car that us Pontiac guys have. My only point is that unless there is a buildsheet or definitive documentation from Pontiac not just word of mouth then no one can really say that the engine was installed at the factory. Another point is that the RA V block casting number is totally different from any 400 motor. Mike will a few drinks on me suffice as an apology? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]

Steved: my cars are not race cars I never said they were faster then yours and I will not thrash numbers matching vehicles just to prove anything to you. They are show cars that have intact drivelines from when they were new why would I want to risk ruining them. They were run once for fun before they were restored and that's it.

The one thing we all have in common is a love for these old cars and when a debate like this draws all this attention from various people all over the coutry, it makes me feel good that this hobby and the passion for these cars will live on long after we are all gone.

I just find it very interesting that Pontiac documented all the VIN's of the early Super Duty cars that Harrop, Beswick and others took delivery of, raced and won National events with. They even had every VIN for 70 TA's with RA IV's in them broken down by time built, 4 speed vs. auto, as well as blue vs. white cars and the plant in which they were produced. Why then not these two cars?

These are two great cars no matter what the case is.

Mike [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

------TJS44s statement about the car getting shipped with a seperate RAV engine w/exaust manifolds is probably the closest thing we will ever have to the truth regarding this entire discussion!When you think about it,why would Pontiac risk a fine of whatever amount and deliver a non-compliant car when they could deliver the motor seperatly and avoid that whole scenario.This makes a bunch of sense to me,however the old "anything could happen"adage does have to be kept in mind when dealing with GM............Bill S

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Mike, Now, that was a reasonable explanation, and, it's nice to see this back in a civil tone. However, what you're missing is that I NEVER STATED THAT MY CAR WAS A RA V FROM THE FACTORY! Therefor, I don't have to put up or "shut up", as far as documenting anything but what the car IS. I do enough things I'm guilty of, I sure don't need to be accused of things I don't do.

BTW I don't drink, so, can you just send me 20 bucks. Mike

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Get 'em, Mike G! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img]

SS

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I'm sorry, but I just have to say something to DaJudge. Cars are meant to be driven, not trailered, no matter how precious, pristine or rare they are. If you don't drive the car, you're defeating the whole point of owning it. If I had a car somewhat like any of yours, I'd make a point of driving it. If the car was only one of one made, you'd find me driving it. Cars can be replaced and relived, awesome lifetime experiences cannot. I don't know how the rest of you feel, but that's my opinion. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, but I just have to say something to DaJudge. Cars are meant to be driven, not trailered, no matter how precious, pristine or rare they are. If you don't drive the car, you're defeating the whole point of owning it. If I had a car somewhat like any of yours, I'd make a point of driving it. If the car was only one of one made, you'd find me driving it. Cars can be replaced and relived, awesome lifetime experiences cannot. I don't know how the rest of you feel, but that's my opinion. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you would have a different point of view if you had $90K plus and 4+ years into a restoration of a numbers matching car. Yeah, insurance will cover most problems that might happen, but I don't think you'd want to go through the whole thing all over again. The way people drive nowadays, it gets harder and harder to drive any nice vehicle in traffic. You should see what goes on in NJ on the roads. Too many people on cell phones driving oversize SUV's and extended cab pickups that don't pay attention. Then you have the idiot ricer's that think they can drive like the Fast and Furious.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I'm sorry, but IMO, you can't worry about all the other drivers. You can't worry about what COULD happen. Like I said before, NO MATTER HOW VALUABLE, I'D STILL DRIVE IT! Sorry to shout, but that's the truth. I wouldn't care if I had over $90K worth into it, I'd still drive the snot out of it. If I put that much money into the car, it's worth being driven. Ok, there would be one or two restrictions, like no driving in the salty Wis. winters, and try not to drive on too many gravel roads, but THAT'S IT! You want to drive it and have fun, but still keep it alive.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

[ QUOTE ]
The way people drive nowadays, it gets harder and harder to drive any nice vehicle in traffic.

[/ QUOTE ]

The traffic is usually pretty light where we drive. It's odd, though...it's always us, and only 1 other car!

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img]

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Skier..I think you might feel differently if you put the amount of effort into a car that some of these have had. I have driven frame off pristine cars and put enough miles on them to where they are no longer Pristine and it is something that gives you very mixed emotions. Alot of what these cars are about is preserving what they were like when new and maybe there will still be some good examples left for the next Generations to see. We will be gone long before these Cars will so really we are just Caretakers for Future Generations. You can drive the Crap out of a Clone and have the same feeling. This is coming from a Guy that drives the Crap out of everything. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I rode my Bike to Trailer Week........
Motown [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Keep driving these cars eventually they need redone and thats called job security for me,,lol [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

A whole bunch more jaw flappin has gone on in here while I was at Church.

What I appreciate, people like Mike who can have a simple disscussion with an open mind. He wasn't trying to ram Jim Wanger of Pete down my thoat, the guy was actually trying to help. The truth is all I'm after, and I mean the exact truth. This does not mean Pete, Jim's, or Joe Bob's opinion.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Jim M worked for Chevy, Jim W left an advertising agency in 69 that contracted with Pontiac, and Pete worked for a phone company? Is that right? So neither of these guys were around Pontiac when the controversial car was actually built, interesting. And neither of them actually ever worked for Pontiac, wow!!!! Is that a shocker if my information is correct.

Last Winter Jim W was in Tulsa, and made a trip to Gary's house. Gary is the owner of the Judge in question. Gary probably has a dozen 69 TA's, with 4 in is top shelf garage. 2=RA, 1=RAIV, 1=RAV. The hood was up on the RAV, and Gary asked Jim "what do you think of that motor?" and Jim replied "well, what is it?" Ok, something is wrong with that. By the way; this TA has cast iron manifolds, so make the count two if anyone was counting those.

Where are the engineering logs?

Dajudge... your car is to good for a grudge match on the track, no problem. Change your mind or get another car, bring it on.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

AMEN Charley [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

i had assumed all along that the car (one of them) in question belonged to gary. as for driving rare cars, i was at a all pontiac drag and car show a few years back and watched gary get booed by a bunch of "enthusiasts" for smoking his tires all the way down the track in a true documented frame off totally restored 69 trans am convertible. it was one of the coolest things i have ever seen. (anyone get a video of that). i know a guy who knows him and he said he had a few friends over and they took the trans am convertible out and took turns doing burnoffs and seeing who could get the longest second gear rubber in it. i am surprised he let jim wangers come over. i have heard he has a select few friends that ever get to see any of his cars.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

HAHA you don't know how true that is... Gary also has a dozen or so 71 Judges, one of them is a documented 4 speed convertable. I've seen him burning the **** out of those tires and even cutting a donut.