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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
What I meant is ..... Is original to THIS car?
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
As far as I know, no one has ever questioned whether or not the original Yenko gauge cluster came from # 616414. It would be too coincidental otherwise. By the way Tom, that "we're looking for the car that my uncle ordered when he came back from Nam" story was cool! I spoke to one of the people who was with the car when you looked at it.
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Since the 587 car probably wasn't a muncie car the firewall wouldn't have the first 2 speedo cable retainer clip holes, however if the whole trans tunnel wasn't replaced there should be one piercing for the speedo cable on the pass side of the tunnel under the car...
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Thanks Jim
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1969z280</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nova7579:
What are you putting BS signs up for? Bergy doesn't have to share anything about his car with us. He's being straight about what he's found. Let him do it at his pace. JMO, Ed </div></div> Agreed. Takes stones to be so transparent about a car you actually took a risk on. Refreshing approach in a world where cars are bought and sold in envelopes among insiders. And an entertaining saga at that so far. Good luck with the car. |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Bergy, My comment was not intended for you. Nova7579 put up a BS ikon, which was censored, so he put it up again. He was the target of my lampoon. I see the second BS post was deleted completely.
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Thanks for the clarification Gary
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
OK. Who was that person you spoke with?
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
PM me your phone number Tom - I'll call you
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Would be best if you PMed me the info. Sorry.
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
I've been pretty transparent here Tom - I need to speak to you anyhow because your name came up in another discussion regarding this car. I'll PM you my number. Heck - there are no secrets here. I hope that I didn't offend you by relating the "Nam" story. If I did, I appologize. You've helped me by providing the old photos - I owe you!
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vfitom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Would be best if you PMed me the info. Sorry. </div></div>
I would not PM anyone any info that included another persons (third party) name. Especially if that person requesting the info had not filled out their user profile completely. Sorry. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/hmmm.gif[/img] But nobody wanted to hear from me anyhow. Nevermind. |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been pretty transparent here ... </div></div>
Quite true, this has been an interesting thread - would love to hear more about what your research has turned up. |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
One thing that it turned up Marlin, is that you have told me that you had no personal knowledge about your "title in an envelope" statement. You even told me that it's quite possible that if an offer for such a sale was made "10 years ago", it's quite possible that the vin was not, in fact, off of the car. I'm just like you Marlin - just trying to get the whole story here.
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
I meant to say "car in an envelope" - sorry
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
"Yenko in the Envelope" post for interested followers :
....This is very true, and literally happened right here in PA just a few short years ago. A guy now has a nice looking Yenko Camaro, (albeit a rebody), with a repop TT, a restamped firewall, and no VIN plate because the guy with the original body trumped! Bergy, I'm not trying to try your patience, nor do I consider you a rookie in this hobby - you've been around a while! But, the way you packaged your purchase and plans brings de ja vu to many of us. The recollection that the firewall in the car is from another car wrecked by a logging truck is interesting, but does nothing to prove/disprove this car as a rebody. <span style="font-weight: bold">When someone is offered a Yenko in an envelope,</span> and then it shows up a few years later as a full blown car - without the TT and the firewall stampings, it screams rebody (and a lousy one at that!). If you think there is a story in that car, break it down, blast the body, look for the rebody vs. original body and go from there. I would love to be wrong on this one, even it is a definite rebody - I'd still save the thing, just need to call it like it is. [/quote] |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
I've had our corporate attorneys look at this pretty closely. Legal decision involving these matters are made on the preponderance of the evidence. Think of it this way, if a vin stamp(s) was cut out of the cowl of a car and welded into another car, would the other car then become the legit car? Or would the original car with the two holes on the cowl and the vin tag be the legit car? I'm not saying that this is exactly what happened in the case at hand, but I'm just illustrating that the preponderance of the evidence and not just the physical vin stamp in the cowl is used to determine legitimacy. With the value of these cars, fake cowl stamps will get better and better until even the experts are fooled.
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Just my suspicious mind, but based on the calls that I have gotten - I wouldn't be surprised to see this car be suddenly "discovered" as an old race car behind a garage some day soon. Don't be surprised if it happens community and be very suspicious when it does! My public posting may have interrupted/delayed the "discovery" announcement and I've heard that some people are mad about it. I need another copo like I need another hole in my head - the understanding of the story is just so interesting that it keeps me pursuing. I did get some uopdated info today. Remember when I wrote in this thread a couple of weeks ago that "I've got to figure out what all of the white paint is about"? Well, the owner in the 90's said that he stripped white paint off of the rear of the car and one door. He did add that he believes that the car has had its cowl replaced. The entire car was painted white at some time (even the bottom of the fuel tank)!
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing that it turned up Marlin, is that you have told me that you had no personal knowledge about your "title in an envelope" statement. You even told me that it's quite possible that if an offer for such a sale was made "10 years ago", it's quite possible that the vin was not, in fact, off of the car. I'm just like you Marlin - just trying to get the whole story here. </div></div>
You are correct. The car was not offered to me personally in an envelope, but rather another enthusiast who has been in the hobby a lot longer than I! At that time, I did not know the offer was for this particular car - as there are actually 3 green Yenkos from PA that this offer could have applied to, [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/frown.gif[/img] Do we know if the vin was off the car at the time the offer was made, I don't know. |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
WHO made the offer to sell it and to WHOM was the offer to?
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
There's a silver deuce with the rewelded scenerio (rebody at BJ), and I believe a hugger orange yenko dragcar camaro with tt and vin removed still leaving hidden vin under the fender with the other scenerio, (oops dragcar found,rebody out there), ask those people involved their opinions.
I may have missed it in 18 pgs., but what does the trim tag on the car say? Can you change a cowl(firewall) without changing the tt or vin tag? Joe Trying not to be an a$$. Howie don't respond!! |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Thanks. I'm done here......good luck........
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
This is like The DaVinci Code or something....
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
TT is missing on this car.
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Call me kooky here but given the information that has already been discussed, there is no definitive way to prove this cars pedigree. The original firewall is missing, the trim tag is gone, the vin has been off the car has been re-attached etc. I dont care if there is green paint all over this car, it proves nothing. All of the items that have been presented in terms of proof are bolt on. Sure, they may be COPO items but those items in no way prove that this is the original body. IMO, there is no way to prove it and anything more is just graspng at straws. Before anyone comments, go back and re-read this entire thread. At first, Bergy states this car isn't worth purchasing and now all of a sudden the car is purchased by Bergy and it somehow seems to be morphing into a Yenko camaro. I don't blame anyone for throwing up the bs flag, geez.
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
I agree that most of the info thus far is purely circumstantial, however, many a court case has been decided on purely circumstantial evidence.
This method is not for everyone, but I'd rather have a fully documented, crazy story that includes all angles, dispells any confusion with other similar stories/cars, and all in one public place (like this thread) so that future inquiries can find the source discussion. Frankly, this car needs to come apart and get blasted to find the weld lines. Heck, a bunch of us are close enough, we'll pitch in to help - and bring some coolers of Yuengling (ironic eh? Pottsville... [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img] ) |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
For some Yuengling I'll head down [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Thanks for the offer guys - the beer will be on me! I'd love to have a bunch of you guys down here. To Tom's concern - he is correct, I was a real skeptic on this car. Heck - I was the first one to tell everyone that it had the wrong firewall and even posted the cowl vin before I ever bought the car. I even suggested that others might want to run the cowl vin at dmv to track down the story on that car. Well, I inspected the car again and got a statement about the cowl vin car being wrecked (and never re-registered after 1982). Then my skeptisism began to fade. Then I found out that the car was actually inspected about 10 years ago by folks who knew what they were looking for - and they believed the story that the owner gave them at the time about the car having come out of a junkyard. I then found out from the previous owner that the junkyard story was partially true, but the repairs of the car actually occurred in about 1985 using some junkyard parts ("about 7 years prior to 1992" according to the statement). The female owner that was spoken to in about 2000 wasn't the one who did the repaint in about 1995 and, therefore, was just repeating (I believe incorrectly) the story that was passed on to her from the 1992 owner. What remains is for me to find the 1985-1992 owner of #616414. I have a second hand statement, but need first hand. The DMV is working on it - you may not hear much for a while.
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
As a newbie I have found this thread most interesting. If I had presented this car/story in this forum the outcome would be quite different. I have seen this happen countless times here. Building the pedigree of a car based on the reputation of the person submitting the case may give rise to ethical issues. Nothing is a substitute for documentation. Even history and physical eveidence are a distant second. I guess it comes down to "let the buyer beware" and that's sad.
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
I guess it is enjoyable to some to go birdoggin and dig up all the past info, past owners and piece it together etc. But when you spend all the $$ to restore it, and given the fact that complete,no BS Yenko's are for sale all the time, round the clock, is it worth it.? The stigma always stays with the car.
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Amen Tim - history is evrything! The ability to contact old owners and see old pictures. The full story with names and contact info. Only when this is in place - would I consider spending a lot of resources (and beer) tearing a car apart.
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Jim - Since I don't consider this an investment - the real, true, story behind the car is everything to me! It's what motivates me (evidently not everyone though). When and if this car ever gets restored is secondary.
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
I think this car will turn out to be worth it at the end of the day. It could be restored as a yenko (if most of the body build date codes make sense), and would not be a clone.
That would be pretty cool based on the purchase price versus a no question asked yenko. I would call it something in between the real deal and a clone. And over time, who knows what will present itself for purchase (the orignal engine, the tags, etc). It is funny if this car, turns out to have more original sheetmetal in it, versus a car that had a rebody done around an original firewall. What can be really valueable to this cars value, is who will be present when the body is stripped to authenticate it. Jerry M should be there, Steve from the vintage judging should be there, Kurt from camaros.org should be there in my mind. The beer would have to be really good for that to happen. Then the body could wear yenko stripes with pride. |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
I'm not sure anyone has to be there in person, good detailed pics would likely suffice - I just wanted a reason to take a day off work and drink some beer in front of an old Camaro! Plus, I've never met Bergy, wouldn't mind shootin the bull with him and his cars....
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Hey Bergy - Thanks for sharing all of this with us fellow car nuts!!! It's pretty damn cool of you to keep us up on what is going on with this car and putting up with the nay-sayers.
If anyone has seen the pics or read the numerous threads of what Bergy has in sitting his garage they would know the value of this car being a Yenko is definitely not his motivation for what he is doing. He is a guy who loves these damn old cars and can't keep himself from buyen em, figuring out the story behind em and makin em look damn good once again!!! Awsome story! Can't wait to see how it ends!!! |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
I think Bergy should consider a new business opportunity. I would pay him to put in this much research in my car's history.
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 92646</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think Bergy should consider a new business opportunity. I would pay him to put in this much research in my car's history. </div></div>
X2 [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/frown.gif[/img] |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
In 1990, this car was for sale and in an area not mentioned in all of the above posts, and also was painted a different color than red, green, white, etc.
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Scranton?
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Yep - it was blue then, I have a picture of it.
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