Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

2 cents?

It's always big fun when a car comes back to life.

I remember one rebody discussion a couple years ago when BOTH cars came back to life! You guys remember that one right? It was a copo or a zl1 or something. We were all seeing double for a while. Pretty sure it started kinda like this one, 'cept in that case, 1 car had the vin and cowl tags, and the other had the hidden vins.

Never heard the end or truth of that one, won't on this one either.

I do really like the attitude of "SAVING" the rare "CAR" tho. (LMFAO!)
When they die, they die.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

[/ QUOTE ]

If you take the VIN from one body and put it on another IT IS A FELONY. If you sell, buy, trade a VIN tag IT IS A FELONY. (I know I am beginning to sound like Jeff Foxworthy here...You might be a felon if...)



[/ QUOTE ]

After following this since Saturday on this as well as the other sites.....this had me busting out laughing. Nice post~

Mark C- Your comments are right on as well!

It's pretty clear what happened here as well as a bunch of others that we may never hear about due to lack of exposure. As a group of people - who are ardent hobbyist - we need to make sure we "cut out" this type of thing from continuing. Too many people get burned and it's something that you may never recover from. Call me old school, but to me a Man's word is his bond. If that bond is broken it's very difficult to fix. That's something my Dad taught me long ago and still preaches to this day. As I posted earlier, what happened here happened to some major players and if it can happen to them it can easily happen to any one of us. We need sites like this, Team Camaro and CRG with members who are willing to put their foot down and say enough is enough with this type of https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif !

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Early Vettes have a VIN tag that is screwed on with two phillips head. Is removing those screws to paint the car a crime? What happens when said painter removes the tag and loses it? I personally know of a car that that happened to. A new VIN tag was made by a company and it was reapplied to the car. What would you classify this car as.

I also know of a 65 post 442 that was sold with a hardtop VIN at Holt Auto Sales in Michigan. Cowl tag was right but VIN was wrong and had rusty round rivets holding it on. Car still exists and owner knows of the VIN issue. In his case the car has the wrong VIN and the wrong title. Should a car like this should be destroyed?

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thats the thing, it was sold as original. One of the most documented original Zs out there. Personally I wouldnt care if it was rebodied. Choosing between a car with 95% Chinese repro metal and 5% (cowl where tags are attached) real and one thats been rebodied with a shell made by GM, Ill take the rebody. So tell me what one is more real.

[/ QUOTE ]

One thing to consider for those (most of us) who love their cars and also enjoy the fact that we can enjoy something which is a viable investment.

One of the reasons that these cars can be an investment is that the supply remains constant while the demand increases as the population increases. Now an added component is that there may be a certain natural attrition of these due to theft, fire, flood etc. which actually slowly decreses the supply. Now if cars can just be recreated by trading vins etc. and rebodies and be accepted as "the real thing" the value of the lot as a whole has just decreased. The more this practice would be accepted the less unique and "rare" these cars would be until they were worth no more than any other car.

I know this argument is somewhat simplistic and there is much more to the car thing than money, but you gotta admit it make you think

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

so if you see some tags for sale on PeeBait write down the numbers !!! before the pics are deleted!!!


https://www.yenko.net/photos/data/522/69_tags.JPG

IF YOU ARE DRIVING A CAR WITH THESE NUMBERS, ASK THE PREVIOUS OWNER WHY THE TAGS WERE OFF!!
(I'm no 69 expert and don't know what these tags are from.)

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

This topic has been discussed here before. I recall taking part in discussions about rumors of people rebodying Yenkos in the mid-West in the 1980s. Wonder how may "original" Yenkos are out there which have exactly the same issue? I remember at the time, someone said that it was a fairly common practice to rebody these cars back "in the day".
As a matter of fact, I am pretty sure I made some enemies for my participation on that thread.

We won't hear anything about these though. As was discussed then, there are those who know of the cars with "questionable history" BY VIN. This info will not be shared for multiple reasons (money, fear of litigation, don't want to hurt a friend, etc, etc).

All one can do is make the right friends, ask the right questions, and always be prepared that you just made the wrong purchase of a car with "questionable" history.

My question has always been this: If 6 people in a group know about the rebody, and no one speaks up....are they all partially liable for not coming forward with the information? I would think that it would be exactly the same as seeing a crime take place and not coming forward with information, meaning you would have some culpability.

I'll go back to lurking now.....

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
Early Vettes have a VIN tag that is screwed on with two phillips head. Is removing those screws to paint the car a crime? What happens when said painter removes the tag and loses it? I personally know of a car that that happened to. A new VIN tag was made by a company and it was reapplied to the car. What would you classify this car as.

[/ QUOTE ]

It would be a questionable car.

I don't know the exact legalities, but straight R&R (temporary and doesn't go to another car) in the process of resto isn't going to be prosecuted as far as I know. It happens often in the case of upper dash panel replacement and maybe (in vette cases, I don't know) in paint process. For paint, I would rather it be masked rather than removed.

For whatever case, "losing" the removed tag is inexcusable IMO. That's a pretty important piece and great care should be taken as far as securing (not losing) it.

As far as the new VIN tag being made, well... I would wager that the guy that bought the new VIN tag would not say where it was purchased, nor would the tag maker ever advertise. Very illegal to manufacture VIN tags.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by TK-65

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

So the guy is openly making VIN plates?

Care to provide a link?

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Witnesses to a crime cannot be prosecuted for not coming forward. What your probably thinking of is a material witness warrant which is issued for a witness that ignores a subpoena after being duly served.

Friends that know of a VIN change cannot be held liable unless they participated in the process of altering the cars identity or later hiding the fact. Mere presence or knolwedge of a crime does not constitute a conspiracy it requires an act in furtherance of the conspiracy. This issue can change when someone knows a crime involving the public safety is ABOUT to occur. But that is more complicated and doesn't relate to this matter.

This car needs to be destroyed because its identity has been altered causing someone to pay 125K in reliance on the fraud. That is just one of the reasons the laws against vehicle identity change exist. This car has been so artfully altered it even fooled a recognized camaro expert who inspected it. If it is not destroyed at some point in the future it again will be sold to a buyer in good faith. The laypersons concept of Buyer beware doesn't cover active acts of identity change, it relates to checking for rust etc.

Almost all states make provisions for lost vehicle identity tags and also for necessary alterations. In those cases the State comes out and personally supervises the work or the car is brought in and clsoely supervised. I had to change out a speedometer on a 97 Porsche a few years back and had to jump through a lot of hoops to get the state to certify the mileage from old to new speedo and the change was supervised by the state.

This case is different than a camaro that left the factory with a 307 engine and the ZL-1 option or other rare options which were later added. Those cars are clones or tributes but their original identities should remain intact. Its unfortunate in Chevy world there is no factory docs like PHS for Pontiacs or a Marti report for Fords to determine a cars original factory options.

This car will not be re-sold if the allegations turn out to be true. Both state and Federal authorities have been notified of the information contained on this thread and other forum threads and have acknowledged reciept of the information and are opening an investigation. The NICB boys are relentless when it comes to cases like this. I think that this car has been sold for the last time assuming everything is true.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Les, my last post (which I'm guessing is the one you're referring) was in regards to TK's now-deleted post about the guy who makes and advertises making VIN plates.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k9...6blazer/9z.jpg

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
1) Early Vettes have a VIN tag that is screwed on with two phillips head. Is removing those screws to paint the car a crime? What happens when said painter removes the tag and loses it? I personally know of a car that that happened to. A new VIN tag was made by a company and it was reapplied to the car. What would you classify this car as.

2) I also know of a 65 post 442 that was sold with a hardtop VIN at Holt Auto Sales in Michigan. Cowl tag was right but VIN was wrong and had rusty round rivets holding it on. Car still exists and owner knows of the VIN issue. In his case the car has the wrong VIN and the wrong title. Should a car like this should be destroyed?

[/ QUOTE ]

On 1) You are not listening to the facts of this situation. Removing a VIN from a car and putting it back on THE SAME CAR is not a crime. The crime occurs when you put it ON A DIFFERENT CAR. As for the VIN lost by the body shop (which unfortunately happens too often) the owner has to go to DMV and get a state issued identification number for the lost VIN plate. The manufacture and sale of a Vehicle Identification Number is a crime. And there probably are guys that do it...and I imagine those guys are just waiting for that knock on the door in the middle of the night.

On example #2) that owner and the dealer have a big problem. That's a rebody and the owner doesn't know what the body's VIN is - it could be a donor or a stolen car from way back when. He should bring that car back to the dealer now and try to get his money back. The local law enforcement officers in that dealer's town would probably love to know about the transaction in the event he doesn't get his money refunded. (And he should tell them anyway if he does get his money back, just to stop it from happening again)

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
On 1) You are not listening to the facts of this situation. Removing a VIN from a car and putting it back on THE SAME CAR is not a crime. The crime occurs when you put it ON A DIFFERENT CAR.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is incorrect information..
It IS ILLEGAL in many/most/all States and Canadian Provinces..

Although common place, even jumping a Vin tag from an old dashpad to a new one on 'Cudas or like constructed vehicles where the Vin is attached to the pad is illegal..

These situations call for a State issued Vin although in some States and Provinces where there is a provision for it, having the delegated official be present when you do the swap is the only legal way around avoiding the State issued Vin when actually moving a tag or Vinned part in cases like the dashpad above or a collision repair where the part being replaced has a Vin on it..
It's not Ok just document the date you did it or just call them and tell them you're doing it!.

The same applies to the Dynacorn type body cars.. Regardless of what everyone likes to say/think/hope, these are supposed to get a State issued Vin too, not jump the tags from one to the other as there can never be a car left behind without an identity for one thing...even if it's destined for the scrap pile!.

Obviously nobody in the collector car world wants to call the officials or live by the rules as getting a State issued Vin seriously deflates the value of collector cars..
Think of a Hemi Cuda only needing a dashpad and what may happen if you do call!.

I've always wondered how an engine being swapped and a Vinned item itself fits into this part of the legislation also how anyone can legally restamp an engine w/ the Vin but that's another whole issue itself..

There's lots more grey areas like those deemed manufacturers having the Ok when dealing w/ some Vin related issues but again another whole area needing close scrutiny itself..

Here's a bit of reading on one States view of the subject...lots more online if you just look..

http://www.state.in.us/legislative/i.../ar18/ch8.html

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif
~ Pete

--------------------
I like real cars best...the REAL real ones!

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

You are quite correct, Sir.

I was attempting to simplify the explanation on the issue. But when it comes to statutory writings, there is no way to simplify it. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Think of the VIN as a landmine. Don't mess with it or bad things happen.
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Bill , The camaro was sold long ago. Original owner was in Montana and he went to California While he was in the Air Force. He told me he got stopped twice for glasspacks on the car. The Cop who was hassling him did not know what factory chambered exhaust were. So he sold it shortly after being pulled over and harrassed. He sold thecar in late 1970 or early 1971.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Not this story but a Related Artical in the paper today.

http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/newssun/news/1236958,5_1_WA23_LAVARR_S1.article



BY NICHOLAS ALAJAKIS [email protected]

WAUKEGAN -- On a day where they both pleaded not guilty to more than two dozen felonies, a mother and son business team from Wauconda was indicted on 29 additional charges.

A Lake County Grand Jury Wednesday afternoon indicted Katherine Laverdure, 81, and Ronald Laverdure, 56, on 29 counts of tampering with vehicle identification numbers.

Earlier in the day, the two owners of K Konstrution, 29693 N. Route 12, Wauconda, pleaded not guilty to charges stemming from a June raid on their business.

Illinois Secretary of State Police, Illinois State Police and Lake County State's Attorney Office raided K Konstrution on June 18 in an investigation stemming from falsified vehicle identification plates. At the business, which was owned by Katherine and operated by Ronald, authorities found a number of vehicles and tractors with falsified VIN numbers and registrations. Police also found a number of guns and cocaine.

On Wednesday, Ronald was arraigned on four counts of driving with a revoked license, 14 counts of unlawful possession of a weapon by a felon and one count of unlawful possession of a controlled substance.

Additionally, both Ronald and Katherine were arraigned on 25 counts related to forging vehicle identifications and titles. Not guilty pleas were entered on all counts.

As the arraignment hearing was going on before Associate Judge Christopher Stride, a grand jury was indicting the pair on 29 additional counts. According to prosecutor Suzanne Willett, all those charges stem from fake identification numbers on the company's construction equipment. Katherine and Ronald, who are both free on bond, are expected to be arraigned on the newest charges next week.

The investigation into the Laverdures was going on for quite some time, investigators said in June. Roughly 20 tractors and vehicles registered to K Konstruction or Ronald Laverdure with fraudulent identification plates were impounded at a heavy equipment auction in Morris, Ill.

Looks like they are serious about this stuff.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

"This car has been so artfully altered it even fooled a recognized camaro expert who inspected it."

Anyone can be a Victim of Fraud!

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
"This car has been so artfully altered it even fooled a recognized camaro expert who inspected it."

Anyone can be a Victim of Fraud!

[/ QUOTE ]

Reminds me of a Montreal F1 weekend about 20 years ago when one of the boys fell in love for the night..
He was ready to jump off the Cartier bridge when 'she' turned out to be Lola (nothing to do w/ racing cars of the same name)..

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/crazy.gif
~ Pete

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

It didn't fool the person who inspected it. No one would have bought that car for 40K if they had seen all 3 pages of the report.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
It didn't fool the person who inspected it. No one would have bought that car for 40K if they had seen all 3 pages of the report.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, Now someone post a copy of the report so everyone is on the up and up. This is the type of education that is needed in this hobby.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

You'll have to get it from the new owner (assuming he still is the owner) Only he and the inspector have copies.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

The experts report states then, that the cars identity has been altered and it is a rebody??????????????????????? Seems unlikely to me?

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What the Hell is a "restoration drive train" anyways?

[/ QUOTE ]

Guessing restamped/restored to appear "as was" when new. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it's a perfect imitation if there even can be such a thing and the 'restoration' engine or drivetrain names came from the Corvette crowd..

I always think of it as kind've like the Jaguar owners club...they like telling everyone how superior of an automobile they are yet when you get one, you soon learn the truth and it's too late so you have to either join the others in the liar's club or lose money..

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif
~ Pete

[/ QUOTE ] Pete, I am a corvette guy and I hate when they refer to an engine as a resto motor. I call it what it is, a stamper.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
Reminds me of a Montreal F1 weekend about 20 years ago when one of the boys fell in love for the night..
He was ready to jump off the Cartier bridge when 'she' turned out to be Lola (nothing to do w/ racing cars of the same name)..


[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, gives a whole new meaning to 'Vin swapping' https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/shocked.gif

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Is that like "genuine imitation leather"?

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

We in the uph. world call it "Polish Leather"

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

My guess here is that considering who the buyer is, BJ may well take this one on the chin themselves. The new owner gets the car regardless, the buyer gets paid maybe not all the cash but most, so he's not screaming and all they need to do is get this to go away. Considering what this buyer alone has generated in commissions for BJ, can anyone really see him paying for this car? Scottsdale is around the corner and any bad press or litigation could be disasterous for the house. They can well afford to eat this deal on behalf of the buyer and we may never hear anything about it again. Everyone is happy, bring on AZ.!!!

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

If the seller is infact the builder then why would Barrett let them off the hook?? NO WAY would that happen or they'ed be opening the door every con-man out there. Im sure Ron will be taken care but Id HATE to be int the builders shoes right now! He is in for a VERY EXPENSIVE LESSON ON RIGHT AND WRONG.

I wouldnt really consider that bad press for Barrett, infact I would think of it as them going after the crooks and doing the right thing and maybe making the next idiot to think twice! JMO

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

I have to disagree here Bowtie, the way BJ has the paperwork set up, it's 100% buyer beware and they are responsible for and guaranty nothing. The seller has every right to demand full payment for the car, as someone bought it, fraud not withstanding, that's a whole different lawsuit. Now BJ is between a rock and a hard place. Do they want their best customer in protracted litigation over one of the cars that went across their block? I wouldn't think so and is it the first time a less than original/fake car has crossed their block? I wouldn't think so on that issue either. The problem for BJ here is who bought the car, if it were you or I, we'd be screwed. Given the set of circumstances concerning this car, the last thing they probably ever thought would happen is Classicgary showing up. Now they need to try to maintain some sort of integrity concerning their auctions and consignments, that's not going to happen with a public dog fight looming. They need this to go away and go away fast, Scottsdale is around the corner. They can well afford to "Take one for the Team" here.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

I beg to differ...BJ doesn't have to take it on the chin...

If there is something wrong with the car...BJ does an unwind...the car gets returned to the seller (or not...depending on what law enforcement does)...then the seller pays both the selling commision...the buying commision and any outstanding fees to BJ as well.

Buyer gets his money back...BJ gets their fees...and the seller deals with the mess that he started...

I think that it would be in the best interest of everyone to make it happen as soon as possible. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Lets see...

Buyer has the car. BJ has the money. Seller is empty handed.

Its easy... buyer gets made whole and learns a valuable lesson. One some of us have paid dearly for. BJ takes the car back and calls the authorities who impound the car for 18-24 months. Seller won't file suit seeking return of the car due to involvement in the fraudulent build and misrepresentation of the car. He ends up with nothing till the authorities decide what to do with the car, although he may be charged with a few felonies.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Point taken, but has BJ ever done an unwind? Especially in a high profile case like this? I have no doubt they have the lawyers in place to do it, but has it ever happened? And what about the seller, Gary has "Officially retracted" his statement, so where does that place the seller in litigation wanting his due from BJ? I don't think law enforcement even comes into play now. He presented it, BJ promoted it, someone bought it, who pays? The way I see it is, after Gary retracted, it becomes a viable deal, someone bought the car and someone has to pay for it. I can't see the seller taking the car back and even remotely thinking about paying BJ 18% with Gary retracting, so where does it go from here? I know it's a mess and not right, but I also think that someone's coughing up the money to make it go away. Who has the most to lose here? My guess is BJ, that's all.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

What ever happened to the gentleman that checked this car out? Jerry macniesh? It seems that he was fooled and is in the center of this.

Now the question is this:

1.) How many cars did he certify over the years? We need to go over and re evaluate all of them!

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Boy has this thread taken on a life of it's own !! Does anyone know who the builder of the Rally Green Camaro is ? I believe I saw him that day coming over to Ron to shake his hand. He's also up on stage during the selling of the car,...kinda a big guy , +/- 5-10 ,+/- 220 lbs ,in a black/white bowling shirt, blondish hair,.... It might be good to know which shop the car came from, just so any potential future buyer's have a bit of a heads up on what kind of work they do ??? Kinda like the Oregon Guy.......

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

I don't see law enforcement taking that car, there are too many grey areas here. The state Prosecutor isn't going to waste time on this, after all, it was certified by an "EXPERT" for the seller, accepted by BJ, and sold, end of story on that front. Once Gary went away, now the car becomes a real/viable commodity that has to be dealt with in a business like fashion. So who's paying the freight here on this deal? My money says the new owner got a gift from BJ.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
And what about the seller, Gary has "Officially retracted" his statement, so where does that place the seller in litigation wanting his due from BJ? I don't think law enforcement even comes into play now. He presented it, BJ promoted it, someone bought it, who pays? The way I see it is, after Gary retracted, it becomes a viable deal, someone bought the car and someone has to pay for it

[/ QUOTE ]

The bell can't be un-rung. His retraction may have been due to his realization that he admitted to committing a felony. It doesn't change the story. Heck, his pics are still up of all the paper/tags.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Law enforcement in the form of the NICB has opened an investigation on the car.

If the seller is whats known as "a seller in good faith" in legal terms then he will have no criminal issues but only civil issues in trying to recover his purchase price from whomever he purchased the car. If the seller is also the restorer and the buyer for the cars current indentity purchased on ebay he has a lot more than monetary issues to concern himself with.

Gary's internet retraction is irrelevant. It appears if the information is true that the car in question is currently displaying identity tags and a part of the cowl with a hidden VIN from another car. Someone had to have welded and affixed the identity tags to the current car. The NICB will determine who that is and turn the results of their investigation over to the US Attorney's office for prosecution.

This is one car that will not surface years later at another auction if its true that its identity was transferred from another car.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

If the authorities are involved they can find "Mr. Gary". A retraction on this or any forum has no merit now.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

There are no grey area's here this car appears to have the identity of another car. The person who sold those documents and hidden cowl VIN is still displaying them on his websight. The US attorney's office will prosecute the case if the investigation confirms that these allegations are true not a state prosecutor since the car traveled over state lines. As a former prosecutor I can tell you this case is simple and a rookie could try this case.

The experts opinion would only shield a "seller in good faith" not the person who restored the car or a dealer who sold the car knowing it had its identity switched.

Even the worlds best expert cannot determine if a car has been altered in this fashion. Vehicle identity alterations to this level with this kind of documentation defy experts discovery.

I have never met or spoke too or retained Jerry Macneish but I have read his books and know him by reputation and his reputation is that he is one of the worlds foremost experts on Camaro's. He is not to blame in any fashion for another persons criminal acts of fraud. He like the buyer this weekend is a victim of the fraud. If fraud is established.