Re: Steel '69 Crate Camaro
 

US Code Title 18 Section 511: Note Sections (B),(C), and (D) of Paragrah (2)

Section 511. Altering or removing motor vehicle identification numbers

(a) A person who -
(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters anidentification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part;
or
(2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle, knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years,
or both.
(b)(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).
(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection are -
(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to such vehicle or part;
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;
(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law; and
(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by -
(i) the owner or his authorized agent;
(ii) applicable State or local law; or
(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.
(c) As used in this section, the term -
(1) ''identification number'' means a number or symbol that is inscribed or affixed for purposes of identification under chapter 301 and part C of subtitle VI of title 49;
(2) ''motor vehicle'' has the meaning given that term in section 32101 of title 49;
(3) ''motor vehicle demolisher'' means a person, including any motor vehicle dismantler or motor vehicle recycler, who is engaged in the business of reducing motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts to metallic scrap that is unsuitable for use as either a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle part;
(4) ''motor vehicle scrap processor'' means a person -
(A) who is engaged in the business of purchasing motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts for reduction to metallic scrap for recycling;
(B) who, from a fixed location, uses machinery to process metallic scrap into prepared grades; and
(C) whose principal product is metallic scrap for recycling;
but such term does not include any activity of any such person relating to the recycling of a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle part as a used motor vehicle or a used motor vehicle part.
(d) For purposes of subsection (a) of this section, the term ''tampers with'' includes covering a program decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act for the purpose of obstructing its visibility.

Definitions of "Motor Vehicle" per Section 32101 of Title 49 referenced above:

(7) ''motor vehicle'' means a vehicle driven or drawn by mechanical power and manufactured primarily for use on public streets, roads, and highways, but does not include a vehicle operated only on a rail line.

(10) ''passenger motor vehicle'' means a motor vehicle with
motive power designed to carry not more than 12 individuals, but does not include -
(A) a motorcycle; or
(B) a truck not designed primarily to carry its operator or passengers.

(11) ''passenger motor vehicle equipment'' means -
(A) a system, part, or component of a passenger motor vehicle as originally made;
(B) a similar part or component made or sold for replacement or improvement of a system, part, or component, or as an accessory or addition to a passenger motor vehicle; or
(C) a device made or sold for use in towing a passenger motor vehicle.

Re: Steel '69 Crate Camaro
 

Mark, Great homework there. Thanks for posting that.
I would recomend that anyone that does something like this go get a local photocopy of this actual document and keep a copy of it with the title of the car in question.

I still feel that anyone that removes a vin number off a dash/firewall and puts it on a different body, could be opening themselves up for a big problem if they are not carefull.

Tecnially you are not repairing a part but actually manfacturing a bogus car. Some states might confisistate that car. The car will not bear the hidden vin #'s that law enforcment expects to be on a vehicle. Only a registered auto manfacturer can affix a vin # to a car. When you totally replace a body and then swap a vin # off another car, you are treading on shakey ground.

Any of you that consider it please get the blessing and a letter of such from a local Law enforcment official just to protect your ass. I am sure that those that live in the rust belt will have a easier time with local officals as they are more aware of the need to do something like this. It could have a negative effect in some of the western states.

I know for a fact and from personal experience on a 84 vette that you will be prohibited from re-using the same vin plate on a car here in OK. They will make you use one of their state assigned vin #'s. They would not allow me to reinstall the original vin plate on the vette that I have. I was told that I would go to jail if I tried to do that.

I am sure that every state has their own slant on this subject. Any of you that plan on doing this, Please consult your local law enforcment authorities and be sure to get it in writing. This could come back and bite you in the butt years later after you sell the car. I still feel you can legally replace the entire car except for the firewall or body part that has the vin plate and the hidden vin on the firewall and you would not be doing anything illegal. Yes it is a big job, but better safe than sorry. JMHO....

Pantera

Re: Steel '69 Crate Camaro
 

I still don't think you can remove the VIN and put it on a different body. But this points out that you can remove the VIN to repair the area where the VIN is. So if your dash was rusted out you could remove it and have a new dash panel welded in. A lof it comes down to documenting what you do for future referencing.

Re: Steel '69 Crate Camaro
 

I think it's always best to overkill a vin removal, and the reinstallation. If we need to do this process, we take pictures, and have a member of the sheriffs department, or highway patrol there to witness it. That way there's never a question.

Re: Steel '69 Crate Camaro
 

Again in the case of this crate body or whatever you want to call it, you are not swapping a VIN from one car to another. You can not remove the VIN and hidden VIN stamps from an existing vehicle and then try to use it as a "repair part", as it was once part of a motor vehicle. The "crate body" is not a "motor vehicle" nor was it part of an existing motor vehicle, never was, never will be until you affix your VIN to it, at which point it's no longer a repair part. Think of it as an extensive quarter panel, or floor panel. When you purchase this component (or components) you have to remove and replace (not remove and relocate) the VIN to facilitate the "repair". Granted this is probably pushing the envelope of the federal code quoted above, because the code could never have anticipated that someone would manufacture a replacement body for a car. If it really bothers the Feds they will amend the code to prevent this by specifying that you can not replace more than some percentage of a vehicles original body parts at one time before the car must be scrapped. That would prevent issues with the people who replaced parts 20 years ago due to rust or body damage, and now need to replace other parts to keep their cars running. But somehow I don't think they will change the code at all.

People seem to get their knickers in a twist over this subject because there seems to be some beleif that people are going to run out and built a 100 percent repro vehicle out of this crate body. I don't think that was ever the intention of Dynacorn, and they probably got screwed by the spin that Hot Rod Magazine put on the story when it was published.

How is using this single part any different than someone buying goodmark (or whoever's) quaters, trunk pan, inner and outer wheelwells, one peice floors, firewall parts, Dash panel, cowl panel etc. etc etc. (or worse cutting up another car to get those "original" peices) and welding them up in their garage. As soon as they get to the cowl panel, and dash panel they either have to cut out the hidden VINs and drill out the dash rivets to transfer them to the new "repair pieces", or they transfer their VIN plate and just go get a set of alphanumeric 5/16" (or so) stamp the old numbers into the new sheetmetal. Is it because it seems to be so easy to do, as opposed to piecing it together with individual peices?

How many people have replaced their dash panel because of rust at the base of the glass, 60, 70 percent of Camaro owners? I doubt more that 20 (the number, not a percentage) of them have taken pictures of the VIN transfer, or had any kind of law enforcement present when they did it.

Re: Steel '69 Crate Camaro
 

I visited CARS 3 weeks ago and spent a whole day there checking out there operation, and I was impressed! I asked all the relevant questions that may or may not pertain to this particular discussion, and I left feeling very confident that they are in no way going to try to pass these "crate camaros" off as a #'s matching Z/28 or anything else, when I asked the question on how it would be titled, Mr. Barber told me that it would be titled as a kit car or if you had a rusted out original car you could use the original title and VIN but it would be labeled as a re-body and there would be no part of the VIN # stamped under the heater on the firewall! CARS is going to do these cars in any stage you want from just a body to a complete turn key car, but they can't put on the "Camaro" emblem, they can drill the holes for you but can't install it. They had it worked out with Chevrolet to call it a Camaro but GM wanted $700 a car to put the name on it, so they decided against it to keep cost down for the consumer, and in my case I am faced with this, I have been negotiating with a guy for 6 months on a 100% #'s matching 69Z, tuxedo black, 62K miles(documented), only options are ZL-2 hood, and Rosewood pkg, needs paint and engine freshened, but its going to cost 25K to buy and then the other work, or buy one of the "crate camaros", do a pro-touring car, with a LS platform based engine, modern suspension technology, AC, 6-speed,good sound system and just lots of fun to drive, and I do really appreciate those out there that restore the #'s matching cars for the rest of us to appreciate, but if I can't drive it I would go nuts and who would want to drive a #'s matching JL-8 Z/28,COPO,Yenko,ZL-1, or Baldwin-Motion. The guys building these cars are all about the hobby, don't beat these guys up, they are producing an amazing product, and I would invite anyone that is close enough to check them out, its the people that buy these "crate camaros" and take them and do everything in there power to pass them off as #'s matching cars that are a threat to the hobby and the uninformed buyers pocketbook, just common crooks looking for a quick buck.

C.A.R.S.
www.classicautomotiverestoration.com
336-595-3900
8235 Nautical Point
Belews Creek, NC 27009
email: [email protected]

Contact these guys and they will clear up any questions or concerns you may have about these cars or drop by and see them if you are in the Winston-Salem, NC area.

Re: Steel '69 Crate Camaro
 

[/ QUOTE ]its the people that buy these "crate camaros" and take them and do everything in there power to pass them off as #'s matching cars that are a threat to the hobby and the uninformed buyers pocketbook, just common crooks looking for a quick buck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if these 69 crate camaro's were never produced, then there wouldn't be a threat with people trying to pass them off as the real deal, a #'s matching car. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif

Re: Steel '69 Crate Camaro
 

Well lets put it this way, if these guys don't do it someone else eventually will, you can't stop that. At least we have some guys trying to do it right and are doing there best to suppy the market with a crediable alternative to an original and are also doing their best to keep these cars as to just what there meant for. I think we should try to support them and there efforts, it could be worse.

Re: Steel '69 Crate Camaro
 

Hey Murray..


Happy Birthday!

Re: Steel '69 Crate Camaro
 

Another cake on fire ! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif