Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
 

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fact.a new fender tag was put on this car. fact . it was not the true way this car was optioned when new. how many more are there? who else paid for it? i have the orig photos and proof that it was different! another fact, theese people moved a car with a RED FLAG ALERT on it. they knew what they were doing. i emailed govier back in 98-9 with the vin and warned about the theft two different times, plus called 2 or 3 more! a computer forensic specialist foud the entry in NCIB data base. the ncic is for current entrys. afterwards they are purged into the ncib for statistical purposes for the FBI.the story refers to fender tags to show how a car can become altered for many reasons; ex; add a sun roof , or super trac pack, shaker hood!!! and WAY UP goes the value of that car! point is a 30k car can get a nice 30k boost with some nice options. __bottom line_$$there is so much that did not make the news!! Buddy Whittington <font color="blue"> </font>

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Spill the beans. Sites like this are a great way to get the real story out to people who actually give a damn about the cars. Unless you're unable to for legal reasons.

By the way, I'm glad you found the old girl. Awesome work on your part. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]NO TIME TODAY.. WHAT YOU WANT TO KNOW ? ILL DO MY BEST .. BUDDY WHITTINGTON

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You said that there was so much that didn't make the news. I was wondering if you could share some of that. No pressure, no rush, it's just curiosity on my part.

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fact.a new fender tag was put on this car. fact . it was not the true way this car was optioned when new. how many more are there? who else paid for it? i have the orig photos and proof that it was different! another fact, theese people moved a car with a RED FLAG ALERT on it. they knew what they were doing. i emailed govier back in 98-9 with the vin and warned about the theft two different times, plus called 2 or 3 more! a computer forensic specialist foud the entry in NCIB data base. the ncic is for current entrys. afterwards they are purged into the ncib for statistical purposes for the FBI.the story refers to fender tags to show how a car can become altered for many reasons; ex; add a sun roof , or super trac pack, shaker hood!!! and WAY UP goes the value of that car! point is a 30k car can get a nice 30k boost with some nice options. __bottom line_$$there is so much that did not make the news!! Buddy Whittington <font color="blue"> </font>

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Spill the beans. Sites like this are a great way to get the real story out to people who actually give a damn about the cars. Unless you're unable to for legal reasons.

By the way, I'm glad you found the old girl. Awesome work on your part. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]NO TIME TODAY.. WHAT YOU WANT TO KNOW ? ILL DO MY BEST .. BUDDY WHITTINGTON

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You said that there was so much that didn't make the news. I was wondering if you could share some of that. No pressure, no rush, it's just curiosity on my part.

[/ QUOTE ]the car was in michigan, they moved it to chigao- E. LEE HOFFMAN , then to philly; brian simcox. then to nebraska; dennis smith and paul christopherson..at one time ,jeff bobst had it and he is listed on galen goviers grey sheet as the go to man for origional sheetmetal ect.. the car came back missing the origional shaker hood and all the shaker parts and more .. the fbi knows this and i cant say more than that for now. the car was advertised " with galen govier certification " and came origional doucments .. they are absolutely not the origional ones! if i can get some of the title research records scanned i will post them and some of the court doc's that will give a better picture of what was going on.. i am glad to see people paying attention to this.i only intend to make people aware of what is going on so, beware.. i also personally contacted theese folks and told them if they were really " honest " buyers they would tell me where the car was .. none would tell me anything dispite pleading.. fred engelhart sold the car around more than once, and even told one of the buyers that if they had any issues with the title down the road "he would buy it back" . it goes on and on. i grew up in the company of all kinds of law enforcement and in the court room! i guess it just came out naturally to seek the truth and ask the " right" questions. i probably should write a small book about it .the news paper got the highlights , but , they missunderstood some things. ie; only 8 made. was actually about 8-10 known to exhist with big block and shaker hood.. gee if i could make a fender tag for a 1971 non shaker car , it would be in a new rare class would it not! hum, mabe thats where my "real shaker parts" went? beware. BW.

Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
 

the vin is on the fender tag of a 1971 dodge challenger. it is stamped and or embossed there. it is also on a sticker on the door. more modern vehicles have vin id tags by bar code on nearly every part. this is a wonderfull way to id stolen parts! or parts left behind in hit and run type accidents! also govier has the origional records to verify the building doesnt he ? or can i make up a bogus build sheet and get a fender tag made for it ? the build sheet and fender tags that were used with this car are both bogus, period.. there is no law about cosmetic changes ,true. but there are plenty of laws about altering the identity and then selling it as real.. thats what you pay for after all is it not? CERTIFICATION ?

Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
 

why hasnt galen govier or anybody else been charged with facilitating a federal offense,or at least obstruction of justice?

Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
 

A few comments regarding the last few posts here.

First of all Mopars from 1969-up all had the complete V.I.N. on the fender tag. However, the fender tag is NOT the LEGAL identifyer of the the vehicle. Neither are the "hidden numbers" although they are used to help identify stolen cars that have had V.I.N. plates switched to hide the true identity. ONLY the title and V.I.N. plate are true original LEGAL identifiers.

Fender tags are reproduced often for these cars just as POPs are for GM products. A Mopar fender tag has no stamping or decal on it indicating that Chrysler Corp. even MADE it. It is simply a plain metal tag with a bunch of numbers stamped in it. Therefore, there is nothing illegal about having it reproduced or changed to reflect something other than what it was originally.

However, if a seller represents a car upon sale to have the original fender tag and states that it and the car are correct in the relationship of what it shows, and a new buyer discovers and can prove this not to be true, then they can sue the seller for mis-representation. This would be a CIVIL matter not a CRIMINAL matter that would NOT involve anything to do with V.I.N. tampering.

Regarding the OK. law concerning this, I would like to know if it has ever been tested. I would think that there is a strong possibility that the law could be overturned. The problem with all of this is that it takes PILES of money to determine ANY of this, and most people are not willing to spend it.

The real tragity of this cars story is that the V.I.N. plate was never changed with altered numbers from the way the car left the factory and simply slipped through the crack of the legal system that SHOULD have caught this years ago. Shame on the government, state, or federal for not having a simple shared datedbase with ALL reported stolen cars by V.I.N. If this was in place the first time someone tried to register it, it would have been discovered.

My rule when buying an old Mopar is to value the car by the V.I.N. which indicates the model, engine, year and assembly plant to determine what the car actually is. This does not identify the trans. but there are telltales to determine this. As for the options, I value them based on the cost of the parts and installation if they are present on the car. If there is some other BELIEVEABLE documentation then that is simply a bonus. They are 40 year old cars. Things got changed early on with no intentions of what we today feel are critical points in determining their value, I don't buy into or get caught up in it. To each their own.

Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
 

cars come with option tags for a reason. otherwise mfg's would not spend the time and money to install them in the first place. the whole reason for my intrest in these post was that people are paying big money for cars that claim to have origional tags, paperwork and documentation. even though i agree with you that it really does not matter to me, the truth is that many buyers are not experts and the experts that make theese claims are selling snake oil . otherwise to knowingly/willfully change the tags and sell a car based on this representation would be fraud, and that is no civil matter.

Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
 

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cars come with option tags for a reason . otherwise mfg's would not spend the time and money to install them in the first place. the whole reason for my intrest in these post was that people are paying big money for cars that claim to have origional tags, paperwork and documentation. even though i agree with you that it really does not matter to me, the truth is that many buyers are not experts and the experts that make theese claims are selling snake oil . otherwise to knowingly/willfully change the tags and sell a car based on this representation would be fraud, and that is no civil matter .

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Mopar fender tags are not there for the buyer/customer/owners. They are there for internal purposes of the factory during assembly time. Buyers of new cars look at the window sticker for the equipment of the car, not raising the hood and trying to decode a fender tag to know what it had for equipment, not to mention it had a limited amount of info compared to all the car typically had. It is only the hobby that has decided to assign interest in the fender tag. Often times they are lost during repaints or body damage. People sometimes have them reproduced when missing. Sometimes when people restore these cars they add factory options for their own enjoyment and preference and add these options to the fender tag when repoed. It is seldom done to deceive a future buyer. Any future buyer that is educated enough to decode the fender tag and care if the car is true to the tag owes it to themselves to question the seller about it. If the seller lies about it, and that is later PROVEN, they MAY have some type of grounds for a law suite.

Mis-representation or deception regarding possible differences in how a car was equipped, painted, etc. is different than criminal fraud. It is not like changing a V.I.N. that could completely change the model and engine of the car. I doubt that you would have plausibe grounds to charge criminal fraud in this type of case.

Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
 

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"...We all know that often times fender tags are missing and it means nothing LEGALLY..."

It sure means something legally in Oklahoma!.
Ask Lynn!.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/show...fpart/all/vc/1


Great the Challenger is back home!.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif
~ Pete

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I like real cars best...the REAL real ones!


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My whole point to posting about this was to point out that law enforcement was looking at the WRONG things with regards to this car? Yes, a fender tag on a 1969 and newer Mopar does have the V.I.N. on it. Maybe that was changed on this car maybe not. The point to this is that the car STILL had the original V.I.N. as it had when stolen. We all know it it very easy to get a new title for an old car. So, if there is no check by DMVs in all states for stolen vehicles by V.I.N. then the only time a stolen car is going to be recovered is by LUCK or insurance investigators checking V.I.N.s at car shows etc. This is not just MY opinion, as I just two weeks ago had my 1981 H.D. Sturgis Lowrider stolen. The insurance investigator told me that they have a fair recovery of stolen motorcycles because they DO check V.I.N.s at motorcycle gathering.

The bottom line here is that a stolen vehicle can be re-registered in another's name with the original V.I.N. and could never be discovered. It would be very simple to avoid this if ALL state DMVs files would flag stolen V.I.N.s when someone tried to register it.

I just read the law posted on the link. That law doesn't really have much for teeth as it is a misdemeanor for first offense. Seems pretty obvious that some judge or law maker in OK. felt like they got burned on an old car and are trying to plug holes. SOMEONE with some clout got that law enacted. It allows for additional civil action to recover "damages" which is probably the real reason behind the law.

Mopar fender tags for 68 and older don't have the V.I.N. on them so unless you have a broadcast sheet, window sticker, or IBM card to cross reference the "hidden numbers" (Sales Order numbers)to the V.I.N. how could you PROVE what fender tag belongs on which car in the case of 68 and older Mopar cars?

Up until this OK law NO STATE has ever recognized anything other than the combination of legal title and V.I.N. plate as legal identifiers for vehicles.

This OK law also has exceptions for removal for restoration, which is typically when the monkey business begins. Who is going to be charged with the lose of a trim tag during restoration? My guess is that at least 75% of them are lost by body shops. Some are misplaced and forgotten when a nervious seller removes it for safe keeping. How do you know who and when removed one? How are you going to prove that one is a reproduction and who and when it was done unless someone that was involved in it admits to it? Good luck in that case.

[/ QUOTE ]my car has a reproduction tag. how do i know this? because i have photos of the origional car -day one- and many photos of the car and its options including under hood photos! they are far from correct,they are bogus period.if you have the origional title and paper work with complete photos who needs a historians opinion?!!

Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
 

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this is amazing story, more of them are popping up all the time

here is a TRUE story of a 65 FI Corvette that was stolen in 1970

a neighbor of mine bought it this summer from a dealer in CA

the car had been owned by the last owner for nearly 20 years and it had been registered in CA every one of those 19 years.

That owner bought the car with a good NJ title in the 80's

He then had it inspected (as all out of state cars have to be) and then registered and was given a clear title (one in his name)

When my neighbor took the car to the AZ station to have it inspected (I think most every state has this process) it came back from the NICB as being stolen ... in 1970

Regardless of the train of titles or proof of purchase it was confiscated

that was back in June, he just had a court hearing with all the "investigators" (insurance) and the judge said she would get back to them ...

meanwhile he is out his $55k and the car sat outside all summer (did I mention this was a NCRS level "restored" car?)

the original owner had let his insurance lapse before the car was stolen

it was stolen in TN and recovered that year in IL and then sold at a sheriffs auction

that was in 1970

fast forward to 2009

the owner of the car when it was stolen finds out that his old car was recovered in AZ

what does he do? He goes down to the TN DMV and requests a duplicate title for the VIN number he now has ... they give him one without his having to show any proof

so now the car has TWO titles ...

it is still unraveling, the dealer in CA "jumped" the title ...

the car WAS insured before it was confiscated

just a giant cluster as to who gets what (the TN man wants his car back ... duh) our neighbors want their money or the car, but since it sat outside and still is he really does not want it back ...

[/ QUOTE ]if the sherriffs office disposed of that car , they must serve the last known owner with " DUE PROCESS " if they did then he is out of luck..no need for hearings.. if they didn't then they are up the ol creek! trust me . i know about that! a person can not recive any greater intrest to title than the intrest that the prior person had.. ;look up intrest to titles of a motor vehicle! also just because the claim was a clear title does not make it bonified! the seller can not sell any greater intrest than they have..their sure are a lot of the old cars coming up with issues theese days huh!

Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
 

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cars come with option tags for a reason . otherwise mfg's would not spend the time and money to install them in the first place. the whole reason for my intrest in these post was that people are paying big money for cars that claim to have origional tags, paperwork and documentation. even though i agree with you that it really does not matter to me, the truth is that many buyers are not experts and the experts that make theese claims are selling snake oil . otherwise to knowingly/willfully change the tags and sell a car based on this representation would be fraud, and that is no civil matter .

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Mopar fender tags are not there for the buyer/customer/owners. They are there for internal purposes of the factory during assembly time. Buyers of new cars look at the window sticker for the equipment of the car, not raising the hood and trying to decode a fender tag to know what it had for equipment, not to mention it had a limited amount of info compared to all the car typically had. It is only the hobby that has decided to assign interest in the fender tag. Often times they are lost during repaints or body damage. People sometimes have them reproduced when missing. Sometimes when people restore these cars they add factory options for their own enjoyment and preference and add these options to the fender tag when repoed. It is seldom done to deceive a future buyer. Any future buyer that is educated enough to decode the fender tag and care if the car is true to the tag owes it to themselves to question the seller about it. If the seller lies about it, and that is later PROVEN, they MAY have some type of grounds for a law suite.

Mis-representation or deception regarding possible differences in how a car was equipped, painted, etc. is different than criminal fraud. It is not like changing a V.I.N. that could completely change the model and engine of the car. I doubt that you would have plausibe grounds to charge criminal fraud in this type of case.

[/ QUOTE ]there are 9 legal requirements to demonstrait fraud look em up. if you changed the tag that may be fine.. but change the tag and represent it as true and factual to obtain a sale will constitute a fraud. vin tampering is a felony all of it's own.. that's all i was trying to say..

Re: Stolen 71 Challenger found after almost 30 yea
 

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One thing I get out of this thread, is that people are overlooking why the fender tag may have been changed. The "mopar idiots" aren't too far off in my opinion.
It was not about hiding the VIN, since DUH, it is still on the car. I think the scumbag's objective was to make the car different from its original configuration yet still desireable, so that someone looking for the car within the hobby, would think this was a different car.
Just my theory.

JG https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]meee tooo johnny!!, Buddy Whittington