The Supercar Registry - Question On rebody? 1973 Z-28

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Re: Question On rebody? 1973 Z-28

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On the other hand...then there is this...

http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/...feature16.html

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Well done Bruce! I was waiting for it.

-Dan

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By the way, they found out that VIN had a different engine code digit through NICB. NICB has microfiche records of most vehicle shipments from the assembly plants back in the day. All they have to do is run that exact VIN and if it comes back as a partial match other than the engine code, the big red flag goes up (like in the case of that hemicuda).

Re: Question On rebody? 1973 Z-28

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......... it clearly shows an allowance for removal and MOVING a V.I.N.

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and the allowance is.....
"maximum penalties of 42 years in prison"

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gifOk, time for my warm milk and a nice cozy bed. And nobody named bubba wanting to rub my feet!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Question On rebody? 1973 Z-28

Steve, I appreciate your excellent explanation of the law relating to rebodied cars. I think a permanent thread with your comments would be great. Every time the topic comes up I am amazed at the number of people who mistakenly think the practice is acceptable, legal, and ethical. Marc

Re: Question On rebody? 1973 Z-28

I really did not want this to get to a personal issue, I usually like looking for rust free cars and on this venture I found the other end of the story a very original untouched car but rusty as all could be, I have never built a rebodied car but I feel this car would be the only way, I was curious on opinion, and well.. got more than needed... I have my own opinions as well, as to U.S. welded Taiwan bodies and U.S. marketed import parts but will keep them to myself... scamers will be scamers and due diligence when buying... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Re: Question On rebody? 1973 Z-28

Sorry that 73 Z didn't work out for you.

Heck, I wish there was a law against people leaving these cars out to rust away to nothing and refusing to sell them to someone who could save them before it was too late. I think we all have a guy or two near us who has one of those cars melting away in the side yard.

We could call it The Felonious Abandonement of Restorable Treasures (FART) Act. Punishable by the forfeiture of the car to the nearest enthusiast with a demonstratable ability to restore the car back to its original condition. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: Question On rebody? 1973 Z-28

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Im response to all of this:

1. If you look at the areas of my post on page one that are bolded it clearly shows an allowance for removal and MOVING a V.I.N.

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You seem to be basing your opinion completely on the above statement.

You are incorrectly interpreting the statute. No where in the Federal Statutes that you cite does it say that MOVING the VIN to another body is a legally permissible exception. I have yet to find a State statute that specifically permits it either. Have you?

The Federal statututory exception addresses removing the VIN during a repair, to affect that repair and then refers to replacing it on THE SAME vehicle during that repair process. It never mentions MOVING it somewhere else.

You have some very intelligently stated opinions, but as even you said, that is all they are, opinions.

As a restorer, I would rather err on the side of not facing the possibility of civil lawsuits or criminal penalties than err on the side of looking over my shoulder for the cops (less likely) or some disgruntled purchaser with a flock of lawyers for the next 10 years (far more likely).

If you really want to have a rebody exception to the Federal stautes, someone has to put that into a bill form and run it through their senator or congressman. I hereby nominate you to do that. That would settle the argument once and for all and I could finally put down my keyboard and mouse forever.

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I am interpeting the statuate as written. The REPAIR can be many different things depending on the condition of the subject vehicle and what it needs to effect that repair. If the dash, or door, door frame where the V.I.N. is attached needs to be replaced it appears to me to be legal under the law. Who is going to stand there during repair/restoration during this process of the work to determine what was necessary?

People that challenge these things on a particular vehicle would have to be THERE with witnesses at the time it is done to offer any PROOF of what has taken place. Very hard to PROVE in court if it ever got this far. Personally, I applaude the people that step forward and tell the truth about what they have done.

I would much rather have a car that was restored with a donor body, parts/model specific switching, rather than one that was RESTORED by welding togather a bunch of donor parts on a body that was full of rust and tweeked in an accident. That car is a train wreck waiting to happen in a future accident.

Well, the below underlined verbage spells it out for me. As you know, anyone can take anything to task in court, but I believe the below (from the Federal law) speaks for itrself.

a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair

a person who restores or replaces an identification number for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law

if that person is the owner of the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by— (i) the owner or his authorized agent

The thing we have to keep in mind for the HOBBY is the INTENT of the law. If you legally own BOTH cars and there are no stolen parts involved, then this is considered RESTORATION and has nothing to do with what the law was INTENDED for which is to twart car theives and chop shops.

Then there is the answer from Dynacorn that clealy state the expect many people to use their EXISTING V.I.N. on the new bodies they sell.

Re: Question On rebody? 1973 Z-28

Thats why if you are going to do this,get the right body{close to date correct and maybe even the same color} and do it right.Drill out the spot welds on any panel that has a hidden vin on both cars,weld the panels back together with the numbers on which car you want them,grind and work the metal to look flawlessly original,and then media blast the entire area so that the handiwork is undetectable.it can be done.If all else fails,use the firewall from the rusty car and graft it into the donor body.Keep your mouth shut and never tell ANYBODY.Good luck.

Re: Question On rebody? 1973 Z-28

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I personally had a 1966 Corvette that was stolen and recovered that the V.I.N. tag was removed and destroyed by the theives during the time it was missing. I was able to LEGALLY have an accurate reproduction V.I.N. plate made and re-installed on the car.

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I didn't know there was a legal way to have a reproduction VIN plate made. New state-issued VIN with the original #s, sure.

But an "accurate reproduction?" My understanding has always been that making VIN tags is a pretty big no-no and a federal crime. Did you get it through the state gov or through one of the underground guys making them?

Re: Question On rebody? 1973 Z-28

A successful criminal prosecution or civil action does not require a human witness to the crime having occurred. Enough physical and/or circumstantial evidence is, in most cases, more than often enough to surpass the minumum standard - in a civil action which is the preponderance of the evidence, and in a criminal action, beyond a reasonable doubt. Jurors just love that CSI stuff these days. They just eat it up. One of these cases would involve all sorts of cool toolmark and trace evidence testimony. Imagine someone's entire toolbox being used to convict them when they match the microscopic scratch marks on the back of the VIN plate to that favorite screwdriver in the top left drawer.

As for Dynacorn, they only refer you back to your local state statutes, their FAQ section would be of no precedential legal value in court.

By the way did anybody see this, just hot off of the CNN newswire:

"The leader of a group of African-American converts to Islam was fatally shot Wednesday, federal authorities said.
Luquman Ameen Abdullah was one of 11 men charged Tuesday with conspiracy to commit federal crimes, including theft from interstate shipments, mail fraud to obtain the proceeds of arson, illegal possession and sale of firearms, AND TAMPERING WITH MOTOR VEHICLE IDENTIFICATION NUMBERS, the FBI said in a news release."

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/10/28/...ing/index.html

That is all well and good in a case where someone dies and there are unexhaustable funds to prosecute something like that. However in the case of a rebodied car it would certainly be a civil case with individual funds being spent based on one party believing they were defrauded with the purchase of a mis-represented vehicle that was something less than it is. HUGH dollars to be spent and a lot of risk of the outcome, HIGHLY unlikely it would ever go to or see an end if started. This would require to first determine if the car was restored or rebodied OR if in fact their is a difference in the eyes of the law AND if in fact there were any laws broken doing so. Sound familiar? Go back to the "catch 22"

You seemed to have missed Dynacorns first option:

Answer: 2005/06/29

A Vehicle or Vessel Identification Number (VIN) is issued by a manufacturer or State Licensing authority. There are three ways for a vehicle to obtain a number.

1) An existing VIN on a vehicle that is titled in your name can be transferred to a repair part (as instructed by your State authority).
2) A number may be issued by your State to ID a custom built vehicle when it passes a safety and number verification inspection.
3) A licensed manufacturer issued a VIN when the vehicle (or vessel) is made and ready for delivery. This can only be issued when a "turn key" (completed) car, truck, boat or aircraft has been manufactured.

Dynacorn is a G.M. licensed manufacturer of replacement body shells, which is a PART not a complete vehicle. You can attach an existing V.I.N. to a replacement part for repair or restoration as per the Federal law.

You will also note in my first post that I too made reference to other state laws.

"it is my understanding that some States have laws against it that do not spell out exceptions for the hobby. However, any links to individual State laws that have been sent to me I HAVE found a similar exception to the Fed. law."

No sense arguing this any further.

In closing I will say as I did long ago in this post, it is something that is going to be argued for a long time. Even if someone takes this to task and the law makes a determination that there is a difference in restoration vs. rebody there will STILL be people that argue it as an ETHICAL thing.
I don't believe there is any State or Federal task force out there looking for people that are moving V.I.N.s from one car to another between two cars that they own legally and are not stolen for the purpose of restoring a car. It would be a HUGH waste of taxpayers money.