Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

real-muscle-1, Post pictures of the terrible job on the hidden VINs, we would like to determine if in fact it is a rebody

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

I may have used the NSF check designation too loosely. We typically refer to checks that are no good, for what ever reason as "NSF". You are correct, there is a significant difference.

The check was written, pending wire transfer on the next business day - Monday as per our bidders contract. A "Stop Payment" was issued by the buyer on this check.

Thank you for allowing me to clarify.

Drew

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

As Xplantdad says: “For good or bad… Drew just tells it like he sees it” – to me that equals one thing: Integrity.

So it's OK to do whatever you want, as long as you are up front about it? So honesty and integrity are unrelated!! Now I get it.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Im confused. Its illegal to rebody a car,but OK to sell it ONLY as long as you arent asking market value?? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Drew I think we all appreciate your candor and the fact you are willing to come on here and discuss the issue.

I would think you would be a bit perturbed that someone tried to pass of a re-bodied car at your auction. Apparently a Camaro that is well known in the hobby to be a re-body. When someone does that and they create negativity regarding the auction process that can potentially harm your bottom line.

I would think you would want to do what ever it takes to rectify the situation and make things right and not make statements that sound like "oh well, the buyer should have done his due diligence, not our fault".

Considering you are the purveyor of the merchandise I would think you would want to take responsibility for offering a quality no questions asked product. Isn't the first rule of retail: "The customer is always right" ?? I guess the seller is also your customer and I know you guys in the auction biz have some pretty tight relationships with guys who are big players in the hobby. It must not be the easiest job to be the middle man! But that, my friend, is why you get the big bucks!

I do think the buyer should have contacted you before doing any dismantling of the vehicle to speak with you regarding the situation and have gone forward from there.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

It's a terrible situation for all involved. I'm just surprised a collector with such a high end collection and so many cars would be turning this car over already after only owning it for 14 months. I always thought the big guys kept all there special cars.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Many blame the "buyer" for not doing adequate research before buying the car. I can understand that.

However, if the seller (who knew nothing about its re-body status as Drew's opinion states) is an enthusiast/collector with "many, many cars, most well over the 6 figure range", then he should have researched the car as well when he purchased it at auction last year, right?

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

That's what I was thinking too Dave. Then again, maybe that's why he wanted to sell it.
james

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

My question is this....SOMEONE out there performed an illegal act and got away with it. It seems that everyone is talking about it is the buyers fault or the sellers fault-- it really is the perpetrators fault. What is/can be done to track this back to the person who initiated the fraud?

Why not follow the lineage back to see who/where this thing was "restored" by?

I agree that the buyer has a responsibility to perform "due diligence". However, in this case someone (at some point) broke the law and made it a point to illegally mislead future buyers. Due diligence is checking to see if the VIN is a genuine COPO VIN, and it WAS (at one time atleast). It is a bit unreasonable in my opinion to expect the buyer to obtain information about illegal activites which were undertaken. Especially when dis-assembly was required.

It appears that Charley and Drew have a pretty good line of communication. Why doesn't Drew "float" these VINs by some of the accepted "experts" that I am sure he knows personally? Many from this site could have alerted R&S about this car just as easily as the buyer could have found the info. I would think this would make the auction house's lives much, much simpler?

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

I have heard from several people on this car. It was apparently built years ago by a guy in Toronto named Frank Macri ? Macri sold it to PhilS years ago. RichP listed for sale on this site for PhilS a couple years ago and I believe Mark Bulaw said he thought this sounded like a car out of Canada that was a rebody and that Macri used a very nice Z28 to build it into the car we are discussing. Phil then pulled the cowl panel and found where the vin had been welded. He did not pull the fender and heater box to confirm the other hidden vin. He sold it to Pat Joiner and told him of the suspected rebody and priced it under 100K to reflect the rebody issue. Joiner then sold it to Corvette Mike's but apparently they say they were not told about the rebody issue. I was also contacted by someone that owned the Z28 back in the early 70's that this COPO was made from and he confirms what I was told about the resto. PhilS tried to contact Macri after he found out but Macri would not return calls and it had been a few years. If anyone involved would like to chime in and clarify the stuff I just posted, please do. I am passing on info that I believe to be pretty close but if anyone has closer firsthand info please chime in so we can put this one to bed.

Someone should check for traces of a 4 speed shift hole. I remember mention of this from before but don't remember the details.


If I am wrong on any of this I will quickly apologise but I think I am pretty close.
As for Drew floating vins by experts he might get some info but who is going to hang their necks out to taint a car if they don't know firsthand. I know I don't need that kind of stress. I get enough crap here on this site because I seem to be the catch-all during disputes.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Charley...thanks for being a voice of reason. There is a darn good reason you are a moderator... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

I don't know if swapping Vins is illegal in Canada, but it is not in SC. If the person legally owns both cars you can do what ever you want to them... including swapping vins from one to the other. NOW whether you would have a civil case against the person... that is a different story.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

So, given all the headaches that are caused by someone revealing the potential "issues" with a car....how can someone who doesn't frequent this site do the level of diligence to avoid these problems?

In my opinion (if all this is true)--
1) Buyer should look toward auction house for initial resolution (which has been done)
2) Auction house should look to the seller for any fees due under the contract (which it sounds like has been begun)
3) Seller should pay fees due
4) Seller then has to go back to the seller to him for restitution
5) So on, and so on, and so on back to the "restoration" took place

I would say that the first person to be hurt by this car is PhilS. By Charley's account (which by his admission may not be completely accurate), PhilS sold the car at a reduced rate based upon the information found. Should be easy to see (if the purchase price jumped significantly somewhere) who did not disclose the information, no?

Would be interesting to see what VINs are in the other locations......

Makes a guy like me not try so hard to put away enough money to buy a car like this. Kind of leaning toward only purchasing known "clones"...that way I can get the same sensations from driving a car like this without the risk of substantial loss of funds on something that isn't as advertised. This is precisely the reason I have never been remotely interested in Corvettes......damn shame, really!

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if swapping Vins is illegal in Canada, but it is not in SC. If the person legally owns both cars you can do what ever you want to them... including swapping vins from one to the other.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think your statement is entirely true.... please follow this link VIN Fraud

Also, it appears that in 2005 Canada was trying to put more teeth into its laws concerning this. Not sure what the outcome was? Canadian VIN Fraid Info

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]

Someone should check for traces of a 4 speed shift hole. I remember mention of this from before but don't remember the details.


[/ QUOTE ]
This thread gives some info...PhilS made a short statement about the tunnel at the bottom of pg 1 of the topic. trans tunnel

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

VIN Fraud
Jun 11, 2007
As our classic cars gain in value, VIN fraud is becoming
more and more common. Several people have asked to read the laws concerning VIN numbers, counterfeit VIN tags and VIN fraud in general. VIN fraud is covered by Federal Law and every state has their own additional laws which in some cases are more strict that the Federal Laws.

Federal VIN Laws

From the U.S. Code Online via GPO Access
[wais.access.gpo.gov]
[Laws in effect as of January 20, 2004]
[Document not affected by Public Laws enacted between
January 20, 2004 and December 23, 2004]
[CITE: 18USC511]

TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

PART I--CRIMES

CHAPTER 25--COUNTERFEITING AND FORGERY

Sec. 511. Altering or removing motor vehicle identification
numbers

(a) A person who--
(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an
identification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part; or
(2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle, knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act,shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
(b)(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).
(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection
are--
(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle
demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to
such vehicle or part;
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal,
obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;
(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number
for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law; and
(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a
decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor
Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the
motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by--
(i) the owner or his authorized agent;
(ii) applicable State or local law; or
(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to
implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.

I read this to say if you are the legal owner that you can obliterate, remove, etc a VIN with no penalty. Opinions?

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if swapping Vins is illegal in Canada, but it is not in SC. If the person legally owns both cars you can do what ever you want to them... including swapping vins from one to the other. NOW whether you would have a civil case against the person... that is a different story.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wanna bet 15 years of your life on that advice? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

You are absolutely wrong on that one. It is illegal to swap a VIN from one body to another under Federal law. Period. It doesnt matter if you own both bodies.

The crime does not get prosecuted very often because there are far more dangerous Federal crimes out there getting the attention of Federal law enforcement, but when they do get prosecuted it is usually a high doller car...I think a ZL1 or a COPO would fit the bill perfectly.

I remember a case back '99 where an old guy was swapping VINs on Porsches to hide the fact they were wrecked and/or stolen. In addition to the cars, he got charged with 1 count of VIN tampering for every single piece of sheetmetal with a hidden VIN found on it during the search. The complaint was 20 pages long. He was facing about 15 years under the sentencing guidelines for the various charges, but he didnt serve any time "up here" though, -he died after pleading guilty.

The comical thing about the Federal system is that if you die before you are sentenced or while your case is on appeal, the conviction is thrown out on procedural grounds and it's like you were never charged in the first place.

So I guess he got to the "Firey Gates" with one less conviction on his resume. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...8/untitled.jpg

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
VIN Fraud
Jun 11, 2007
TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

PART I--CRIMES

CHAPTER 25--COUNTERFEITING AND FORGERY

Sec. 511. Altering or removing motor vehicle identification
numbers

(a) A person who--
(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an
identification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part; or
(2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle, knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act,shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
(b)(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).
(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection
are--
(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle
demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to
such vehicle or part;
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal,
obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;
(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number
for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law; and
(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a
decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor
Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the
motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by--
(i) the owner or his authorized agent;
(ii) applicable State or local law; or
(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to
implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.

I read this to say if you are the legal owner that you can obliterate, remove, etc a VIN with no penalty. Opinions?

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you notice that the statutory exemption language talks about the removal of the tag during restoration, repair etc? The exemption applies to the removal of the VIN from one car and its replacement back on THAT SAME CAR during the repair.

There is no exemption for the removal of a VIN from one body and the placement of it on ANOTHER body. That is the most common way the above-discussed crime is committed.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Swapping VINS is illegal in Ontario, Canada....

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
Swapping VINS is illegal in Ontario, Canada....

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought I JUST SEEN that they, the "law makers", were just going to make it a law, as of now it was not? I can't recall where I seen that, but it was within the last couple of weeks???

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Swapping VINS is illegal in Ontario, Canada....

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought I JUST SEEN that they, the "law makers", were just going to make it a law, as of now it was not? I can't

recall where I seen that, but it was within the last couple of weeks???

[/ QUOTE ]

Let use a little common sense, changing a vehicles identification # has always been illegal. If it weren't the crooks would have a field day. Without some regulation/laws you could make any car what ever you wanted, the result would be the pedigree of our cars would be lost and the demise of the collector car hobby.

I believe you are possibly referring to trim tags.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Where is the subject Camaro today?

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

I think the buyer has been playing in this business for a LONG time and knows the Games that are played at these Auctions !!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

No I am not willing to bet 15 years... I am playing Devil's advocate here... as the law facinates me.

Steve you said that a guy got arrested and charged, but also said that he was involved in Stolen cars. He did not meet any of the exemptions as he was altering, swapping, removing VINS to "further the theft" (I would be willing to bet that the stolen vehicles are what set the authorites in motion) I really do not think that the authorities could give a damn about a guy who owns two cars legitimatley and he decided to swap the vins from one to the other because one is irrepairable. I believe that the law was written in order to push widespread car theft and dismantling into Federal jurisdiction. I could be wrong here as well... but the statute is called
"Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act"

I am not a lawyer but the way I interpreted the statute is that VIN tampering is only illegal if it is done to conceal a previous crime (Theft).

I did notice the Repair/restoration statutory exemption clause, but the subsections appeared to be independent of one another, thus the reason I cited only the subheading I did.

I agree that there is no reason to "swap VIN's" from one vehicle to another.

I also see that it could be very difficult to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that a VIN was swapped and not just removed and re-installed... If the restorer... errr BUTCHER cited the Repair / restoration exemption and said that the firewall, dash, etc was damaged beyond repair and in order to fix it a section had to be cut from another car and welded in then the VIN had to re-installed in the Replaced section.

Now to take a different road to the same destination...
What if the car was clipped through the door posts and across the floor board and welded into another body.(basically using the bare minimum of the car with the VIN's)? Would this be considered VIN swapping or would it be considered a "repair"?
Half and Half piece togethers used to be common place in the 70's...

NOW 1 more...
Would decking an old VIN off and stamping a different VIN back on an Engine or Transmission fall under this? It appears as though it would if using your explanation of the law, because any obliteration or alteration of any VIN would be illegal whether someone was the legal owner of the part/ car etc.

Am I correct with this reasoning?

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
I get enough crap here on this site because I seem to be the catch-all during disputes.


[/ QUOTE ]

I am sorry for ever saying you suck...but truly...you do suck.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

I am sure that it is illegal in Ontario and verified this years ago after a guy tried to sell me a wrecked SS with a mint US shell and told me that all I needed to do was have an OPP officer "watch" the swap. Absolute BS!!!

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

You are correct in that statement Mark . It is an old wives tale that as long as a police officer is a witnesss of the transfer it is legal. This hooby is starting to suck for the guys in it for the love of these cars.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Vin location transfer is absolutely illegal in Canada and the States!
Below is a few samples of some US States views about Vin locations...pretty scary stuff considering what's gone on over the years also some of the cars that exist out there now?.

In some ways wouldn't it be a good thing if more who could afford the legal costs and risks of vehicle seizure actually pursued these issues back to those who may have commited the fraudlant acts in the first place?.

Like FireZ, I've become somewhat disenchanted of late considering the state of the hobby also some of the auction realities we've seen here in recent months too..
And isn't it sad when you think about the history lost and original real deal cars that were sacrificed to create these hot potato cars?.
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif
~ Pete


STATE & CONTACT INFORMATION

Alabama Motor Vehicle Division

www.ador.state.al.us/motorvehicle/index.html
334/242-9000
No changes to the VIN or manufacturer's plate without the approval of the Motor Vehicle Division.

Alaska Division of Motor Vehicles

www.state.ak.us/dmv
907/269-5572
No changes to VIN or manufacturer's plate permitted.

Arizona Department of Transportation, Motor Vehicle Division

www.azdot.gov/mvd/index.asp
602/255-0072 Phoenix
520/629-9808 Tuscon
800/251-5866 Toll-free in Arizona
Vehicle must be inspected by the state Motor Vehicle Division when any changes are made. Three levels of inspection are required depending on the changes made. Contact the MVD before making any changes to vehicle identity.

Arkansas Office Of Motor Vehicles

www.arkansas.gov/dfa/motor_vehicle/mv_index.html
501/682-4692
State law mandates VIN verification by a law enforcement officer for salvage or restored vehicles. Have the VIN verified before making any changes or alterations.

California Department of Motor Vehicles

www.dmv.ca.gov
916/657-7971
800/777-0133
No person shall intentionally deface, destroy, or alter the motor number, other distinguishing number, or identification mark of a vehicle required or employed for registration purposes without written authorization from the department, nor shall any person place or stamp any serial, motor, or other number or mark upon a vehicle, except one assigned thereto by the department.
This section does not prohibit the restoration by an owner of the original vehicle identification number when the department authorizes the restoration, nor prevent any manufacturer from placing in the ordinary course of business numbers or marks upon new motor vehicles or new parts thereof.

Colorado Division of Motor Vehicles

www.revenue.state.co.us/mv_dir/home.asp
303/205-5600
Contact the Department of Motor Vehicles for more information.

Connecticut Department of Motor Vehicles

www.ct.gov/dmv
800/842-8222 Toll-free in Connecticut
860/263-2700 Hartford area/out-of-state
Vehicle must go through a Composite Motor Vehicle inspection at a state inspection facility if any significant changes have been made. State may assign a new VIN. Salvage vehicles must go through a state inspection.

District of Columbia Dept. of Motor Vehicles

www.dmv.washingtondc.gov
202/727-5000
Contact the Department of Motor Vehicle for more information.

Florida Department of Motor Vehicles

www.hsmv.state.fl.us
800/922-9000
Contact DMV or Department of Highway Safety for information.

Georgia Department of Motor Vehicle Safety

www.dmvs.ga.gov/motor
404/362-6500
DMVS wants to see salvaged and rebuilt vehicles both before and after they're painted.

Hawaii

www.co.honolulu.hi.us/csd/vehicle
www.co.maui.hi.us/departments/Motor
Vehicles/index.htm
www.kauai.gov
808/873-3546 State DMV
808/532-4324 Honolulu
808/270-7363 Maui
808/241-6577 Kauai
Hawaii motor vehicle licensing and registration is done county-by-county. Contact each county for specific information.

Idaho Transportation Department

www.itd.idaho.gov/dmv
208/334-8660
Not permissible to change or alter a vehicle or engine number. See Idaho motor vehicle statutes for more information.

Illinois Vehicle Services Department

www.cyberdriveillinois.com/services/services_motorists.html
800/252-3000
217/78-6992
Contact the Vehicle Services Department for specific information.

Indiana Bureau Of Motor Vehicles

www.ai.org/bmv/index.html
317/233-6000
All vehicles must have VIN inspected whenever they are titled in the state for the first time.

Iowa Department of Transportation, Motor Vehicle Division

www.dot.state.ia.us/mvd/index.htm
800/532-1121 Toll-free in Iowa
515/244-9124 Des Moines
Contact the Motor Vehicle Division for more specific information.

Kansas Department of Revenue, Division of Motor Vehicles

www.ksrevenue.org/dmv.htm
785/296-3621
Vehicles registered on a county-by-county basis. Contact the Division of Motor Vehicles with specific questions.

Kentucky Division of Motor Vehicle Licensing

www.mvlky.gov
www.kentucky.gov
502/564-5301
Contact the Division of Motor Vehicle Licensing for more specific information.

Louisiana Office of Motor Vehicles

omv.dps.state.la.us
877/368-5463
Contact the Office of Motor Vehicles for specific information. Another option is www.legis.state.la.us.

Maine Bureau of Motor Vehicles

www.state.me.us/sos/bmv
207/624-9000
Contact BMV for specific information, included on the state Web site.

Maryland Motor Vehicle Administration

http://mva.state.md.us
800/638-8347 24-hour information
800/248-4160 Vehicle services
Contact the Motor Vehicle Administration for specific information.

Massachusetts Registry of Motor Vehicles

www.mass.gov/rmv
800/858-3926 Toll-free in Massachusetts
617/351-4500
Contact the RMV for specific information related to your restoration effort.

Michigan Secretary of State

www.michigan.gov/sos
517/322-1460
Go to the Web site and search for vehicle restoration.

Minnesota Department of Public Safety

www.dps.state.mn.us/dvs
651/296-6911
For more information on Minnesota's vehicle codes, e-mail [email protected].

Mississippi Motor Vehicle Commission

www.mmvc.state.ms.us
601/987-3995
For more information about state motor vehicle laws and policies, e-mail [email protected].

Missouri Department of Revenue

www.dor.state.mo.us
573/751-4450
Missouri has a new salvage definition law. See the Missouri DOR Web site for details.

Montana Department of Justice

www.doj.state.mt.us/driving
406/444-2026
See DOJ Web site for policy on proper handling of motor vehicle restoration and licensing under the law.

Nebraska Department of Motor Vehicles

www.dmv.state.ne.us
402/471-3918
For specifics, e-mail the state from Web page www.dmv.state.ne.us/admin/email.

Nevada Department of Motor Vehicles

www.dmvnv.com
702/486-4368 Las Vegas area
775/684-4368 Sparks/Carson City
877-368-7828 Toll-free in rural Nevada
For more information, e-mail the Nevada DMV at [email protected]

New Hampshire Division of Motor Vehicles

www.nh.gov/safety/dmv/
603/271-3111
Salvage vehicles must have a salvage inspection before registration. Once inspected, a DSMV 547 will be issued. Contact the DMV for more details.

New Jersey Motor Vehicle Commission

www.state.nj.us/mvc
609/292-6500
888/486-3339 toll free in New Jersey
Contact the New Jersey MVC for more information.

New Mexico Motor Vehicle Division

www.state.nm.us/tax/mvd
888/683-4636
For more information, e-mail the NMVD at [email protected].

New York Department of Motor Vehicles

www.nydmv.state.ny.us
No telephone information available.
Visit the New York DMV Web site for detailed information.

North Carolina Division of Motor Vehicles

www.ncdot.org/dmv
919/715-7000
North Carolina has a Title Registration Manual, as well as other booklets, for restorers with specific questions about state vehicle laws.

North Dakota Department of Transportation

www.state.nd.us/dot
701/328-2725
For specific information on Mustang restoration, e-mail the DOT at [email protected].

Ohio Bureau of Motor Vehicles

http://bmv.ohio.gov
614/752-7500
800/589-8247 Toll-free in Ohio
E-mail the BMV from Web page bmv.ohio.gov/registar_email.html.

Oklahoma Motor Vehicle Division

www.oktax.state.ok.us/mvhome.html
800/522-8165 Toll-free
405/521-2913
See the MVD Web site for detailed information.

Oregon Driver & Motor Vehicle Services

www.oregon.gov/ODOT/DMV
503/945-5000
See Web site for details on salvage/rebuilt vehicles.

Pennsylvania Driver & Vehicle Services

www.dmv.state.pa.us
800/932-4600
717/391-6190
Strict regarding salvage/rebuilt motor vehicles. All vehicles are subject to a state inspection. See Web site for more specifics.

Rhode Island Division of Motor Vehicles

www.dmv.state.ri.us
401/588-3020
Vehicles that have been rebuilt from salvage must be inspected by the state. For more details, see the Web site.

South Carolina Division of Motor Vehicles

www.scdmvonline.com
Telephone numbers available online, county by county.
Help is available via [email protected].

South Dakota Department of Public Safety

www.state.sd.us/dps
605/773-3178
Little information on the state Web site. Call for more detailed information.

Tennessee Department of Safety

www.tennessee.gov/safety
615/741-3954

Texas Department of Transportation

www.dot.state.tx.us
No telephone number available.
Safety inspection required when you put a vehicle on the road. More information available on the Web site.

Utah Division of Motor Vehicles

http://dmv.utah.gov
800/368-8824 Toll-free in Utah
801/297-7780
Go to Reconstructed Vehicles on the Web site for more details.

Vermont Department of Motor Vehicles

www.aot.state.vt.us/dmv
802/828-2000
Little information available on the Web site. Call for more information.

Virginia Department of Motor Vehicles

www.dmv.state.va.us
866/368-5463
800/435-5137
Antique and classic cars eligible for special license tags. See Web site for specifics.

Washington Department of Licensing

www.dol.wa.gov
360/902-3770
See Web site for e-mail address for questions.

West Virginia Department of Motor Vehicles

www.wvdot.com
304/558-3900
No information available on the Web site for restorers.

Wisconsin Division of Motor Vehicles

www.dot.state.wi.us/drivers
414/266-1148
608/261-2583
For more information visit Web site.

Wyoming Department of Transportation

http://dot.state.wy.us
307/777-4714
Specific policies addressing salvage and rebuilt vehicles. See Web site for more information.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

"Like FireZ, I've become somewhat disenchanted of late considering the state of the hobby also some of the auction realities we've seen here in recent months".
Pete, have you ever considered becoming a reference librarian? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

WITH THAT KIND OF RESEARCH, You can come with me to court any day! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
real-muscle-1, Post pictures of the terrible job on the hidden VINs, we would like to determine if in fact it is a rebody

[/ QUOTE ]
So far there is suspicion of a rebody, but no hard facts or pictures.
If a Z28 was used where is the 4spd cutout? Apparently this COPO has no trace of one which is interesting.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="red"> He sold it to Pat Joiner and told him of the suspected rebody and priced it under 100K to reflect the rebody issue. Joiner then sold it to Corvette Mike's but apparently they say they were not told about the rebody issue </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

wow.
i think pat joiner still posts here now and then.
maybe he can set the record straight. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

i personaly cannot picture pat doing something like that.
in the car dealer business your reputation is everything.
to risk it all on something stupid like that just doesnt make sense.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]


1) I am not a lawyer but the way I interpreted the statute is that VIN tampering is only illegal if it is done to conceal a previous crime (Theft).

2) I also see that it could be very difficult to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that a VIN was swapped and not just removed and re-installed... If the restorer... errr BUTCHER cited the Repair / restoration exemption and said that the firewall, dash, etc was damaged beyond repair and in order to fix it a section had to be cut from another car and welded in then the VIN had to re-installed in the Replaced section.

3) Now to take a different road to the same destination...
What if the car was clipped through the door posts and across the floor board and welded into another body.(basically using the bare minimum of the car with the VIN's)? Would this be considered VIN swapping or would it be considered a "repair"?
Half and Half piece togethers used to be common place in the 70's...

4) NOW 1 more...
Would decking an old VIN off and stamping a different VIN back on an Engine or Transmission fall under this? It appears as though it would if using your explanation of the law, because any obliteration or alteration of any VIN would be illegal whether someone was the legal owner of the part/ car etc.

Am I correct with this reasoning?

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Lawyer? I am one (allegedly) and it doesn't matter what reason you do the VIN tampering for. It is something of an automatic pass/fail statute: if you do any of the above listed things, you committed the crime regardless of your reason (other than the listed exceptions, of course) The only intent required is the intent to physically alter the VIN, nothing more. In other words, you knew that you were cutting out that VIN and you didn't do it while sleepwalking or during an epileptic seizure.

2) The experts that are used by law enforcement are many times NICB automotive insurance fraud agents who are most often, retired car guys who know exactly what to look for. I've met a few and they know their sh$t.

3) Very slippery slope here. But your scenario would probably be seen as legal and not a VIN swap if the majority of the original car's chassis/body remained and just the rusted areas were replaced.

4) A legitimate decking process by an engine repair facility that grinds off the VIN as a byproduct of the machining process is not seen as VIN tampering. Stamping VINs on engines (like vintage Corvette "Restoration Engines") are something of an untested area. That is more for the civil liability arena (suing for $$$ damages if you're defrauded) than the criminal arena, since cars are traditionally register by chassis VIN and not engine VINs.

My legal fees for this session are $25. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif You can pay by joining this website. Operators are standing by, Master Card and Visa Accepted...makes a great Christmas Gift!

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Well I'm just more then a little confused? If you look at this site for Canada:

http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/news-no...doc_31632.html

Now go down to the "Existing Laws" and this is what is says:
"There is currently no offence in the Criminal Code directly prohibiting the alteration, obliteration or removal of a vehicle identification number"

So it seems in Canada, you can "legally" do this. This is what they are looking at changing it too:

"To address this gap in the Criminal Code, the amendment introduced today would make it an offence to wholly or partially, alter, obliterate or remove a vehicle identification number on a motor vehicle without lawful excuse and under circumstances that give rise to a reasonable inference that this was done to conceal the identity of the motor vehicle."

So, as long as your not trying to conceal the identity of the motor vehicle, even the new law is looking like you will still be able to remove a tag and place it on another shell???

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gifRemoving the tag from one car and placing it on another is actually concealing the true identity of BOTH cars !@! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif {maybe he can set the record straight} Set who's record straight ??? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

I received a pm from Pat Joiner he stated that my statement " but apparently they say they were not told about the rebody issue" is incorrect. My apology to Pat if that is the case.

I wish everyone involved would just chime in on the thread so everyone's cards are on the table. How many times will this car be the subject of one of these threads ?

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
We knew this car would resurface with a clean story !!!!!

[/ QUOTE ] More reason why Im sure anyone who sells a car as a rebody would have the prescence of mind to have the buyer sign a statement acknowledging he is buying a rebodied car. Personally if i thought i "may" have a rebodied car, id probably want to upgrade that assesment to "certainly" have a rebody before i have a fire sale,no ??

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

...would the previous selling prices help indicate who knew what when?...