Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

Great, glad to hear you're not feeling as bad about the car. I agree with the general consensus here. The initial bad taste the car left you with will fade as you roll up your sleeves and undo some of the shoddy work and do the car justice. It deserves it. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

Don't misunderstand, I'm still PI$$ED. It's just that a week has passed and I am finallyable to sleep at night. I have had lots of encouragement from here and at home. That doesn't take away the sour taste I have in my mouth. I feel as though I have been severely ripped off. Where the bulk of the blame lies is up to speculation. The point being is that I paid good money, in good faith (handshake deal-paid in full up front) and didn't get nearly the product that type of money would warrant. This was supposed to be a drive-enjoy-tinker(the small stuff) type of adventure, my dream car. It has turned into a financial nightmare, with the prospect of spending thousands more on a car I may never love.

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

I just hope I can get over the initial first impression to get up the will to start the project. BUT, if someone got marooned on a deserted island with an ugly woman, I bet it wouldn't be too many months before he had thoughts of jumping her anyway (or killing her and using her for bait, LOL)

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif

Ken https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

[ QUOTE ]
Don't misunderstand, I'm still PI$$ED. It's just that a week has passed and I am finallyable to sleep at night. I have had lots of encouragement from here and at home. That doesn't take away the sour taste I have in my mouth. I feel as though I have been severely ripped off. Where the bulk of the blame lies is up to speculation. The point being is that I paid good money, in good faith (handshake deal-paid in full up front) and didn't get nearly the product that type of money would warrant. This was supposed to be a drive-enjoy-tinker(the small stuff) type of adventure, my dream car. It has turned into a financial nightmare, with the prospect of spending thousands more on a car I may never love.

[/ QUOTE ]

Has the seller offered to reimburse you for what you feel may have been misrepresentations. The seller has made it sound like you and he have discussed that possibility.
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Patrick

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

Grusum wanted me to post these for him about the Car in question.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...ers/z28syc.jpg

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...rs/z28syc1.jpg

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...rs/z28syc2.jpg

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...rs/z28syc3.jpg

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

Didn't you make the seller an offer to sell it to you off of Ebay? What was his reserve price? It seems like if you made an offer then you are the one who assigned the value to the car, not him. Also, if you bought it outside of EBay it is likely you did so to avoid the car going to a higher price than you paid. Is this correct? While this method may save you some money, it also leaves you vulnurable. I have learned a lesson from this one. It seems that this seller went further than most would to overstate some of the negatives about the car. I am not sure at this point whether it was to be ethical or protect his butt. Any input guys? Was the buyer ignorant about certain issues or dumb like a fox?


Jason

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

Not to bust your chops any more Grusum, but in response to Jason's question I think that your lack of due diligence (or ignorance - Jasons's choice of words) resulted in your expectations not being met. I don't see it as the fault of the dealer, and trust me, I don't generally have a soft spot for classic car dealers. I read the description early on, and I think an effort was made to say essentially, "Hey, I think the car is nice, but you may not agree with me so come and look at it or send someone on your behalf." That's the cue you chose to overlook, and I think that most people who've bought classic cars recognize that doing so is very risky. If you feel that you've been severely ripped off, I don't think you have a right to blame the dealer. IMO you've severely overpaid for the car given its condition, and I understand your anger about that, but that blame rests with you.

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

Thanks guys, all opinions are welcome.

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

At the request of the buyer I was asked to review a few pictures and give my opinion. After review I contacted both the seller and buyer and asked them to resolve this issue and if possible to do it offline.

Let me state that if I found that the pictures favored the buyer I would have stated so, if it favored the seller I would have stated that as well. I was to be objective and look with an open mind.

I reviewed the above pictures and a couple more and have found some very disturbing issues. These issues show that in my opinion the seller has a very good case.

Again, I was only trying to help and was not favoring either party. BUT, the pictures shown above are just a few of what I looked at.

Again I hope they can resolve this in a civil manner.

Rick H.

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

Rick, you say the seller has a good case. So the car is acceptable then?

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

I meant to say was the seller ignorant or dumb like a fox. OOPS. Sorry about that.


Jason

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

Gary,
In my opinion, no. I would hope that they can resolve this where all parties are satisfied.

Rick H.

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

Grusum,
It was nice talking with you this morning on the phone. I'm sorry for you loss on your Camaro. I agree with 69HURST (yup), and lots of other guys. You should ALWAYS have a car inspected before purchase.
ESPECIALLY from "Milford Auto Sales" in Hopedale, Massachusetts. Scott has obviously gotten better at shading the truth to protect himself. Of course every car a dealer sells isn't bad, but Scott will shade it to sound like every one is good! We true "car guys" need to stick together and inspect cars for each other--and drive shady dealers out when we can.
Yes, I purchased a misrepresented car 3 years ago from Scott. NO ONE would have paid what I did if they had seen it! My $30k "done" car I'll have over $50k in it before I can actually drive it. That's $20k in just mechanical problems! I won't bore you with the details, if you want to know, search for him on www.complaints.com.
I got the same song and dance, all the things that make it sound like he cares and will settle. Then he tells you to f-off. I wouldn't hold out any hope that he will help you.

I hope he does do the "stand up" thing! Can we all say in unison: INTEGRITY?

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

I've stayed out of this thread 'til now but I just went back to the original eBay auction to review how it was laid out....here's the link if anyone else wants to.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=4603329540

Here's a few comments....only an opinion from a simple car guy so please don't anyone attack. .
First off, I'm not saying Grusum is right because it's a buyer beware world and he did jump the gun and pass on the opinion of others. . Two, maybe not what he expected or worth what he paid, it appears he's got a real car there and a correct maybe even original motor that some foolish has dummy-stamped the pad? . So although not a 'flipper' for Grusum, hopefully he can enjoy working on the car improving it and in the long run the value will surpass what he paid. .
On to the seller....after reading the auction, I can't help but feel he knew more than he lets on now and avoided some points or worded around them carefully? . Worse was the disrespect in his postings here? .
That's it, good luck Grusum....hope to see your postings of progress on your car! ~ Pete

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

I don't believe its a real Z 28...those gas pedal studs look kind of weird...

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

"Contacting the seller: I talked to the seller the day the car arrived and told him of my disappointment with the car. Even the truck driver that delivered the car said, "This is a rough car!".

I have bought and sold cars,sight unseen,with sYc members and have had very pleasant experiences.When looking at ebay auctions one of the first things I look for(aside from hide and seek)is how candid the seller is.If he goes into detail about the faults and to a degree,understates the cars condition that tends to score high on my INTEGRITY meter.

The description of the car was pure babe in the woods fare,but clearly it should have been touched prior.That being said not everyone has the resources to fly all over inspecting cars.By the time you pay for air fare,rental,hotel etc that adds to the amount invested in the car(Yeah,a lot less than being a bagholder of bondo)but let's face it we all have rolled the dice at one time and hoped it would be boxcars not snake eyes.I would never purchase a collector car from "dealer" because rule #1 is never fall in love with the merchandise,and that can have ramifications with the code of ethics sometimes.JMHO

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

[ QUOTE ]
Gary,
In my opinion, no. I would hope that they can resolve this where all parties are satisfied.

Rick H.

[/ QUOTE ]

As Rick knows, I have more issues here than simply fit and finish. I will withold posting these pending Scott and I coming to some middle ground. I sincerely hope that we can.

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

In my defense, in my neck of the woods, a handshake is your word and one's honor is defined by your actions. If I was to sell something and offered the opportunity for someone to inspect it thoroughly, that would mean I had NOTHING to hide. I guess I'm not used to a world where that means "I'm covering my butt here so that I can't be held responsible". If I sold something to someone and they were in tears over it I would do everything in my power to rectify it. If I was certain the price was fair I would be confident that I could take the item back and sell it the next day to someone else, honor intact, sleeping well at night. I must also stress that I had independant assurance on the purchase. I coincidentally phoned a person for his opinion about the car two days before sealing the deal, not only did he say the car looked great in the ebay ad, but also he was a friend of the sellers, and told me if the seller said it was so then it was so. I also felt reassured by the fact that as the car sat waiting to be picked up, the seller told me that a guy literally woud not leave him alone about the car and was willing to pay me 3K more. Wouldn't this make you believe you had a decent car?

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

Ok, I am going to post two pictures that will pretty much tell the story. Again, I reviewed these on the basis that I would be subjective and let both party know of where I stand about this car. When I reviewed these 2 pictures I knew right away that something was very wrong. I have a 1970 Z/28 sitting in my driveway and have owned more of these cars then I can remember. I'm not saying I am an expert but I know a thing or two about these cars.

Anyways, the following pictures of the rear swaybar frame brackets are in no way factory installed. They look nothing like any factory bracket I have ever seen. Matter of fact if you look close to the framerails you will not see any evidence of the correct brackets ever being installed. The welds are bad and you can see the undercoating.

Factory swaybar brackets have an eliptical shape to them and are welded to the sides of the framerail. Any 1970 Z/28 owner should recognize this right away. The ones shown in the following pictures are homemade.

I have nothing to gain from this and want to see that all parties are satisfied.

There are other issues with the car but these pretty much sum it up.

Rick H.

http://www.camaros.com/rick/sway01.jpg
http://www.camaros.com/rick/sway02.jpg

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

As another '70 Z-28 owner, I can tell you those rear sway bar brackets aren't even close to factory appearance.

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

I'm with Belair, is this a real Z. Rough car, IMO.

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

here is a photo of the correct 70 Z28 rear stab upper bracket.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y45...emblyrear1.jpg

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

I think what Rick and Copo are telling you is the car is not a real Z28.

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

Holy crap, not even close is right. I have a close up pic of what they should look like but I don't know how to resize it and post it.

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

Here is a pic of an original bracket off of my 70 Z-28.


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86...6/DSCN4065.jpg

Also, I noticed that the car in question had no rear bumper guards and I did not see the cup style bracket that hold the gas pedal studs. The studs seemed to be attached directly to the floor. Take a look at an original bracket:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86...6/DSCN3914.jpg

Paul

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

Two pictures for comparison.

Rick H.

http://www.camaros.com/rick/sway03.jpg
http://www.camaros.com/rick/sway02.jpg

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

I am not a 2nd gen z28 expert, but I have seen (and fabricated) plenty of non-original hangers, traction bars, etc., and those pics clearly show the work of a back yard mechanic.

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

I believe that it is time for the 2 parties to resolve this issue. It is evident that things just do not add up and I for one am pretty convinced about this car.

I really do not think that anymore hashing, bashing and posting is going to help this matter. Let the 2 parties work it out.

Rick H.

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...s/BumpStop.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...eMountsZ28.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4.../Scan10012.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...yOverspray.jpg

A few more misc pics detailing some of the cars issues.....

Rick, Have you drawn a conclusion yet re: originality of Norwood Z-28 trim if sway bar mounts were fabricated...

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

Chuck,
I just can't put my finger on why the complete drivetrain is Z/28 (except for that obvious stamp). The trim tag build date is within the VIN number range but the body is not Z/28. The floor gas pedal attachment is wrong, the rear swaybar frame mounts are homemade, there are no rear bumper guards. I have a theory but really don't want to post it in fear of it becoming gospel.

The drivetrain points to a Z, but the body does not.

Something is escaping me and I really have to think of what I am missing.

As for the stamp, has anyone figured out why it is wrong besides the 2 missing numbers and possible location? Yes, I do know.

Rick H.

p.s. Chuck, you really need to learn how to resize your pictures, my computer screen isn't wide enough for some of your pics. LOL https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

Im definately learning this evening. I know these cars "decently", but nowhere near an expert.

After reading through this thread, I was out in the garage checking the pedal cup bracket and rear sway bar brackets (two things I didnt know to look for before) on my 70 RS Z. They're there and untampered with. Didnt really have any doubts, but still nice to know for sure.

dave

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

[ QUOTE ]
Im definately learning this evening. I know these cars "decently", but nowhere near an expert.

After reading through this thread, I was out in the garage checking the pedal cup bracket and rear sway bar brackets (two things I didnt know to look for before) on my 70 RS Z. They're there and untampered with. Didnt really have any doubts, but still nice to know for sure.

dave

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's the orginal thread that got the party started-
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/show...8/fpart/1/vc/1

BTW what do I win? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

Rick, Sorry about large pics......I have many, many pics and alot of the older ones, never got edited and resized.
How about the possibility that the drivetrain, trim tag, and vin tag got moved to a non sway bar/non Z body.....I missed the info if firewall VIN, matches the dash VIN.
Has GRUSUM inspected entire left side of block looking for (any) VIN stamping..........as Ive previously written I found mine between soft plugs......however if in car, I might not have ever seen.
I have not yet determined why Block partial VIN is wrong, but I strongly believe it was not NORWOOD applied...

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

Anyone ever catch the "400" ballancer in the ebay pics?

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

Mike S. (aka THNDER) has a LEGENDS award winning 70 Z-28 and is one of the 2nd Gen judges for the ACA Camaro Nationals at Carlisle. As well he heads up the Gateway Camaro Club, which hosted the outdoor show at SCR8.
I did not catch the balancer Mike....is it the indented area having to do with balancing ??????? This does not bode well for car having ORIGINAL CTB engine?????

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase
 

This looks to be a non original LT-1 engine. The block appears to be from a 70 Z since the stamp looks legit but with a 400 balancer I would guess the internals are based around an externally balanced 383 stroker (3.75" stroke vs 3.48" stroke) and a cast iron crank. I would also check the flywheel to verify the imbalance weight as well. If a VIN is found on the bellhousing flange my guess is that it will not match the car, and that is why the partial VIN was stamped on the pad to make it "Numbers Matching".

Oddly, the trim tag and rivets look original......

Paul