Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Don

Gary; the owner of the Silver Judge, would like to know if you know him personally?

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I REALLY hate to throw something else on the dead horse,BUT,after looking at my block numbers on my RA V block,I think that any test engne sent out by the factory would be a developmental engine.They all would have been DS part numbers.My block has DS-1001,under that EO-3777 and under that*5.to the right and between those lines is 98V-400RV-05.I have never seen or had a set of 400 heads that were taped for smog.I have seen and have owned 303 heads that were tapped for smog.AND as far as I know there has only been one set of GTO exhaust found for the GTO body.This further makes me think there were NO factory installed V motors to go to the public in anyway in a GTO.If any V motor was factory installed I think it would have been a 303 WITH a smog pump and castiron exhaust.IMHO,Tom

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You have posted some great info regarding the RA V. What cars are your RA V's in ? In 1971 David Pearson ran a GTO in NASCAR , it is in fact the only GTO to have ever run in NASCAR. The piece I read stated that the cars ran well but the motors would not last. Does anyone know if that may have been a RAM AIR V? ( I will try to find the piece and post it) [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]

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two more [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img]

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My RA V motor is a developmental ALU block with all RA V stuff EXCEPT exhaust.I own the exhaust but am running Nunzi headers.It is in a real 69 T/A.I am building a COMPLETE 303 short deck 2-4 Xram SCCA engine.It will be stroker motor,390CI.It will have the correct dist,balancer,X ram 2-4 intake and exhaust.
The Nascar engine was a 366CI engine,it used a std. deck block as far as I remember.

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Last one checkout the CID callouts on the hood 366 CID. A ram air V under the hood? It would be interesting to know, it would explain where some of the engines wound up . These shots were taken at the 71 Southern 500. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]

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Great car to put it in right where it belongs. The callouts on the hood of Pearson's GTO is 366 CID . Pretty interesting. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img]

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by the way,my iron 400 AND my alu 400 V blocks BOTH have the DS1001 numbers?

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by Charley Lillard

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Just when the last embers were dying down....

-S

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GTO_DONS post is exactly what is not needed here. He has been banned for awhile. Please don't anybody else here stoop to that level of post.

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don,i havent posted in quite a while because i basically got tired of argueing with people that are dead set on trying to prove something without even looking into the whole picture and for some reason seem to have something personal to lose if the two cars were proven to be real and maybe even find others. most of all i got tired of people degrading mr knafel and acting like he was just some "old car dealer" when in reality we have seen that he was the most winning racer of pontiacs of all time and was inducted into ohios hall of fame. (i could go on but that is not necessary). now, don, you have just documented what kind of a person you really are. obviously you cant handle anyone ever disagreeing with you and when they do you break down. you have a weakness and that is sad. CHARLEY LILLARD posted a response to me on the board that asked me not to attack billybobcat. which i was not trying to attack him, just wanted to know why he was so worried about the possible cars being proven real. i would expect him now to make a very harsh statement toward your actions.
you have made statements you have not backed up. like when are you going to post the copies of the phs sheets that you have with the memo and special equipment options on them? also, do you know gary daniels? if so do you have something against him? i havent seen anything you have posted that is productive on this topic. just total denial and negative statements. and now you are making physical threats toward people. you are an embarrassment to this board. it is obvious that people are enjoying this topic (seeing how it is either the biggest or second biggest, based on what i have read, i have not actually looked at all of them to document that (c m a))alot of people have put alot of input into this with attachments and information. what have you done (other than make yourself look like a child that didnt get his way). you have given pontiac people a black eye with this behavior. i would post a gremlin but they dont list one that would fit you.

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Wow [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif[/img] you go to the gym and the stuff hits the fan. I could not read the post but wow must have been a good one. I know Don and have seen his documents with the memos. I will get them and post them for him, he was not [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif[/img] He in fact has them. He does not know Mr Daniels , his point was that he knows he has a nice Pontiac Collection and would have the means to get all the RA V goodies, there is no ill will or feelings towards him. There has been some interesting information exchanged here but the car has not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt if anything most of the posts have agreed with Don that no Ram Air V GTO's were produced or shipped by the factory.

Go to Pontiac's website look under motorsports and find the motorsports history tab they have an article on the RA V called the Ram Air V the hottest Pontiac engine that almost was. It's pretty good. Best Regards

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one of the articles of information sourced by Mrs bobcat, was from "Guide to Musclecars" Magazine August 1987 issue, i was looking thru my copy, 8 page article on the RAV motors! show pic of casting # 689539 WY, another pic show 98-V-400-RV-01, DS-1101 #1,EO-3777 both pics of same block .claims that the 400RAV passed 1970 emissions test,without a smog pump! the 303's had to have a smog pump to pass! claims insurance/warranty, plus having problems getting the RAV rods, manufacturing problems killed it's chances of being a regular production option engine.but that's not to say that something like the car in question "didn't happen" [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]

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Here's a pic of the code on Tom's bad boy motor.

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I have a story that I find interesting on how GM is not all ways telling the truth Have any one heard of a 1954 Oldsmobile F 88 for the last 40 some years Gm has said that there was none around that were built at the factory This one car was at a display at GM motorrama and once out of the spot light it was order destroyed and never leave GM grounds This car was built on a 54 corvette frame and its body was all so made out of fiberglass but that was the only thing the shared with the vette the F88 was powered by
olds rocket 88 324 cid with a stock four barrel carb with 9.0.1 compression ratio
Rated at 250 hp It was backed with four speed Hydra Matic transmission with a 3.55 corvette rear axle it all so came with power windows Remember The 56 corvette only came with a blue flame six backed with a powerguild and did not even have roll up side windows
What happened is good old Harley Earl pulled a fast one on the GM top brass
He was ordered to dismantle the car and have it destroyed He did have it dismantle but had it crated up and it all shipped to his friend E L Cord Cord died in 1974 but his grandson remembered the stack of large wooden crates in his grandfather garage for years not knowing what was in them Cord nerved opened the all those crates
Later the still disassembled car was sold to Bill Barker but he did nothing with it so years later he sold it to Jim Brucker he also did nothing with it his son had said his father paid 1000.00 for it and remembered the large crates Six mouths after senior Brucker death The son sold the crated up car to Leo Gephart a classic car dealer for 3500.00 this is where the car finally was to take shape the story gets pretty long but the
Point is there is NO documents for this car no vin number and after 1954 supposed to never be seen again When you think of it this car for its day must have been fast as heck blowing away the corvette So I would say 95 % chance that there was never a RAV
Pontiac that was built BUT that 5% chance is who knows what some one could have done late one night have it disassemble ???? we might never know But do I feel that there are no documents to be found for the RAV just like the F88 it was not support to be Hear is the car today Bet Harley Earl must be laughing form heaven
[image] http://mysite.verizon.net/vze2mjqa/s...s/save0001.jpg

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Thats a great story and I agree that a lot of show cars and concept vehicles were hidden and were removed in a stealthy fashion from GM. I am sure the pride of the people who put these cars together and designed them from clay to a working vehicle was behind some of that and it would be difficult to see these cars destroyed. What ever happened to the Hot Rod test car Judge with the white stripes?

With the RAV story though many people that were involved with GM or doing testing for them are still alive today ie: John Delorean, John Sawruck, George Delorean, Jim Mattison, and Jim Wangers ( I know he was the marketing guy and the competitive nature between the dealerships). Let's remember Pontiac had a new general manager at the time in 1970. That is why the 70 GTO's got sway bars on the rear Delorean did not like them. I feel that if he was still at Pontiac at the time you would have found some 70 cars that had motors shipped and slated for a dealer install like the 69 Bobcat car.

It would be excellent to get a panel discussion going at the GTO Nats in Pontiac, MI next year with some of the above people to discuss this issue. I know I would sit in on it. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

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[ QUOTE ]
With the RAV story though many people that were involved with GM or doing testing for them are still alive today ie: John Delorean, John Sawruck, George Delorean, Jim Mattison, and Jim Wangers It would be excellent to get a panel discussion going at the GTO Nats in Pontiac, MI next year with some of the above people to discuss this issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

John's son, Jeff Sawruk (who is also a Poncho NUT!), is supposed to be checking in, and Mattison has been on the board for some time. So, looks like we're well on our way!

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Total production of RA V engine = 80 (Crate Block)
This is real or a legend.???

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I plead the 5th.......

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[ QUOTE ]
one of the articles of information sourced by Mrs bobcat, was from "Guide to Musclecars" Magazine August 1987 issue, i was looking thru my copy, 8 page article on the RAV motors! show pic of casting # 689539 WY, another pic show 98-V-400-RV-01, DS-1101 #1,EO-3777 both pics of same block .

[/ QUOTE ]

(Whomever you are?)

You need to go back and look at the photos in that article again. That is NOT the SAME block! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img] One is from a ìcratedî engine (showing engine code), the other is a ìbare blockî (with no code). I think they are trying to show the difference between the two.

Here it is again...

RA V article

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Rita

Since the guy I talked to hasn't shown up yet with the engine data, I've been trying to work on your part. j/k Rita don't get upset.

This interpretation was provided by my front office employees that deal with our current new vehicle paperwork from GM. The terms have changed over time, so it's not a perfect interpretation: Date Shipped=what it says. Date of Note=day floor plan begins. Date of Execution=estimated date of arrival at dealership (this is a big guess, there is nothing like it in the current invoices.) Interest From=date interest starts with a time cushion figured in for shipping and paper work.

Again this has no bearing on a car that went to engineering, which I believe everyone has agreed that it did go there. The big question from this would be did it go to engineering before or after the ship date, hopefully some one that was around back then will step up.

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Ok, I was wrong about it being the same block,sorry, my mistake! I AM just a pontiac enthusiast, trying to maybe help solve this mystery! I have NO personal or financial interests in whether it's a "Factory built" or "dealer built" car, don't even know the owner of it! I DO know that if the 70 Judge in question turns out to be "Factory/engineering built" it would be the "ultimate GTO!" [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif[/img]

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This is getting a little old. ( Please do not take this as an insult or attack it is in a post and in black and white the tone is not intended to be hostile). No one except for maybe you and a few others believe that car went to engineering. There has been no proof to make that statement except a verbal from someone. There is no original paperwork that would suggest this. I know that before the factory to dealer invoices were put on fiche, notations would be hand written on the paper invoice if changes were made. See the PHS for a Judge convert I used to own. The date shipped was 2-05-70 and the notation was written on it 11/10/70. I am not positive what it means but it is 9 months after the car was shipped. My IV car has an option code 162 ADV.ASSN. COL, that does not mean it is something out of the ordinary. An engineering car you would think would have something I left the VIN visible so that if anyone wanted to run a PHS on it they would see this notation is real and not made up. Just like the stampings, if real proof is shown then I will be the first to admit I was wrong. I have nothing to lose or gain by this car being a factory car or dealer installed ra V car. I do like how this car went from a factory installed V car, to now an engineering installed car, what's next?

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I think the "SPEC PERF" and "MEMO" on the documentation is what makes them think the car could have gone to engineering. What were those 2 items for? Headers, no sound deadening material? I would think the only acceptable documentation at this point would be for something on paper that has that specific engine production number noted as being installed in that body. With no VIN on the block and the block dated after the car's build and delivery dates, it makes it very questionable that it came in the car new from the factory or engineering.

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That ADV. ASSN. COL. is a fee charged by the Dealer Advertising Association on every car sold to add to its advertising budget. I believe it was mainly done in the midwest and was probably about $10.00. Jim

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dajudge, when did you own that judge conv?? where did it go?

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Kinda ironic that's from Tulsa.

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Post a pic of this car if you can, I'd like to see it.

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Here it is these are the only digital ones I have.

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The convert went to a gentleman in New Jersey. Find attached the one that started it all for me and GTO Judges, before this I had a few TA's of various years this car is now in Indiana somewhere. This one was hard to sell I owned it for 15 years. That is the dealership it was purchased from when new. I know this is off topic just thought you would like to see it.

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Sweet, the 69 is more my style!!! Is that the original yellow?

How long has the green 70 been gone from Tulsa area?

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Nice Judge Mike! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

WOW! I don't think I have ever seen one in Mayfair Maize. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif[/img]

Rita [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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That 69 Judge looks great. I don't think I've ever seen one that color before. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

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That's the original color. It's 4 speed 3:55 posi. The vin is 242379P304126.

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Very nice Judge!!!

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There was a mayfair maize 69 Judge running around here many years ago. It was painted carousel red though. I ended up buying the WS engine out of it after the owner spun a bearing and had another engine installed. I never could buy the car and it has since disappeared. Jim

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Joe C posted a piece on a July 69 Super Stock way back, I got my copy today from Ebay. Very interesting article. I do not get the overall impression that it was an engineering car, but they do ever so gently refer to it that way.

There are three names mentioned: Milt Schornack, Dave Warren, and Brian Ballish. I've seen the Milt guys name in magazines before, or somewhere. Would be sweet if any of these guys were still around and could elaborate on the orange 69 Judge.

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Milt is makeing a clone of the original car right now.Tom

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Tom, anyway to get Milt's two cents on it?

I finally talked to that guy you referred me to on the RAV motors, I liked him alot. He said that he would run some numbers to us at some point. Thanks again, Tom.