Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

And my point was not to compare the Judges to the SD's, rather the lack of acceptance of the Judges to the SD's. Yes the SD's have more notes on the build sheets, but I firmly believe the right research may turn up documentation on the Judges.

PS add to my dream car list one Black Widow.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Not exactly. I think it was like 2 0r 3 grand more than you could buy a vette for. I was not able to buy a new car back then. I had just paid $8,500 for my first house (880 sf) and this car cost almost as much at it did. Wish I had paid more attention back then. You have to remember that the DX SCCA cars were in Tulsa quite a bit. They were neat to go look at too. Tulsa was a hot bed of muscle car acitivity back then.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Sixties M,
With you owning some rare vintage Pontiac examples you have probably studied the Poncho's more then most here, what do you think about this particular car in question, out the factory door new with the IV or V engine? How could it have been installed and distributed off GM property when the engine wasnt cleared under Federal emission standards? Would not the build sheet refer to the V engine with more then just "Memo"? Without actual documentation as to the engine being installed arent we all chasing our tail in a round room having no way to prove or disprove the build? This has turned into a very long yet informative thread, without factual evidence can this really be determined? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]
Thanks,
Motown [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Isnt it funny that pontiac kept all the records of all the VINS of their super duty cars, but have NO RECORD of any RA V"S MMMMMMMMMMM [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img] Let it go! Its getting old.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

don, why dont you reply to the question about what cool gto's you have and if i remember right, you stated you had invoices with memo and special equipment on them and steved asked you to post them and you didnt. actually i think most people are enjoying this and it does raise alot of questions. why wouldnt they have put a ra 5 in a car did they build the engine and leave it on a stand only??? i hardly think so. remember these were delivered to him to drag race and maybe werent intended to sell to the public. how many experimental cars are out in the public and werent supposed to ever be sold. anyone who was around back in the 60's and early 70's and followed drag racing knew all about knafel's lethal pontiacs and knew that pontiac motor divisions engineering dept were behind him on anything he wanted. why is it that nobody wants mr knafel to have any acknowledgment on his accomplishments and working relationship with pontiac???? i guess i would suggest to you don that if you dont like it go to another chat topic and leave this one.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Mr.Muscle,

-----You appear to have 6 posts here and virtually no info about yourself either.At least Don has told us his name.I dont think that Im speaking out of turn here when I say that both you and Don are welcomed here by all of us.Im not throwing stones at you or Don,but maybe you should take this private if you have some sort of beef with him!.......Bill S

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

i have no beef with him at all. it just seems like he continues to try to get this discussion stopped and i know by the number of hits on this that people are enjoying it.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

M&M, I don't pretend to know more than anyone about Pontiacs. I just like them. I respect everyone's opinion on this RA V question, and, I have the utmost respect for Jim M., and, his records. Being old enough [by a long shot] to have been around back then, I still maintain the "never say never" stance. Now, I don't believe a car with a RA V would have been built "on the line", and delivered via normal procedures. Could a car have been sent to a special area, and, a "special" engine or equipment installed? I wouldn't rule it out. If it DID happen, I know there is a dispute over whether this would constitute a "conversion" car, or, a car delivered from the factory.
As far as regulations, if the car was not being sold to the public, but, was a special promo pool car or something, wouldn't that avoid compliance issues?
I do agree that we won't solve this puzzle in this discussion, but, it's been fun trying.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

i agree with you sixtiesmuscle. i never thought anyone would think this was about a car delivered down the line with a ra 5, but instead a car pulled and sent to engineering and the ra 4 pulled and a ra 5 stuck in it. just like steved said about pete mccartheys book showing this very fact happening to the sd tempests and other 62 and 63 cars with sd engines. you can see the pics of the tempest cars with some of them still wearing their 326 badges. i apologize to don if he thought i was trying to make an issue with him. i would just like to see more of the phs sheets with the special equipment memos on them. maybe that would help in finding a common item among them. so far we have only seen two cars and both of them were referred to by bill knafel back around 5 years ago and so far the evidence is documenting exactly what mr knafel said. i also dont understand why mr knafel doesnt get anymore credibility than he does. anyone know why?

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Does this possible RA V car have a partial VIN stamped into the block from the factory? What engine code is on the block? It seems unlikely that any GM paperwork will reveal if it is a RA V factory conversion. It would be cool if it was a real RA V car, but no reason to get upset over the discussion.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Jeff car X does not have any codes what so ever stamped on the engine, I'm not sure about the Tin Indian. The motor is partially disassembled in the bay, after some sort of failure during a pass. Best I recall, that is what I was told about it blowing. I have seen the motor myself, it has the passenger head pulled along with the header which are in the trunk.

It is my belief that the "memo" is an invoicing note reflecting or noting being pulled from the aisle and taken to engineering. I feel will all the SD coverage, some one could probably verify that.

I think Bill Knafel's statement on the car to be factual.

I think there was or still is an engineering log at GM, that may hold the pin point proof. Obtaining that information is my goal, and I am working on it.

I thought with the attention this board was drawing on the car, some one might step up to the plate and help in the search. Trying to get this information from GM is NOT easy. The emissions concern several have brought up I might understand why, but you would have to think a statute of limitations would have expired by now. GM does hold some of it's documentation from the public, it's been hard to decide if that is the case or we just haven't found a person that will put out the extra effort.

The reason I am so adamant about this.... I do believe the car is real, and I would like to correct the myth. Also, now I believe the Tin Indian is a significant counter part thanks to this board disscussion.

Because of this car I have become acquainted with some people that I hope to see at the Nats in Joplin next summer, and wouldn't that be something if both of the cars could be there too?

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Regarding the emissions issue, if you search here on the site you will find a discussion about GM paperwork where they were trying to get the L72 certified in the Camaro for 68 to possibly be a COPO. I would imagine Pontiac would need to do the same thing. If GM certified the ZL1 for the Camaro and Corvette, I would think they tried to do it with the RA V as well. But proving a particular engine was put into a car at the factory, it would need documentation and accompanying codes or VIN. Even the dealer transplant cars(Motion, etc.) had the engines marked and documented. Like it was said earlier, it will be just as hard to prove it is a RA V as it will be to prove it isn't.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Have the trim tags been thoroughly analyzed? Sometimes codes will emerge by comparing a library of trim tags.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Alright lets do this.......... imagine yourself at the theatre for a movie, Fast n Furious type soundtrack and cinemaphotography....

Opens with a some loud music, thumping, and a blurry shot from the camera of the past, say 1973, maybe even in gray shades, from the rear a GTO running down the track, as the motor blows before the finish line the camera spins off to his garage as he tears down the motor, then shows him coughing and implies his death, now jump ahead almost 30 years, the widow decides to sell the car and you see Astock in 1999 on his cell phone describing the car to a potential buyer, flash ahead a couple of years to the current owner allowing me to be one of the few to ever see the car in recent time, then a shot of me later at my desk doing research and fighting with people over a car they say didn't exist as the camera the fades back in time to the early sixties when it all began, and the real focus of the movie begans as it tells the story of the efforts of all our heros who dreamed, engineered, and built what is our passion today, the muscle car, the story shows the rise to glory, and then the collapse of an era in the early 70's, and the last thing it shows is a behind closed doors assembly line removal of a few cars, a few GTO's, a last work of art from a team that knows the end is here, then you see this Judge being delivered to Knafel Pontiac on a dark dusty desolate day, the last shot is of the owner driving away from Knafel in the GTO just a short time before he dies.........

Would be a hell of a movie

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I was talking to a guy a couple of months ago who used to race SD Catalina's and probably raced one of the first pontiac funny cars back then. He said they had built 2 SD Grand Prix's one for him and one for his friend who was the general manager of a Pontiac dealer (He told me which one but I dont remember). He was saying they werent available back then but anything was possible if you had the right connections. He also said he still has all the original paperwork from when the car was new.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Sixties I didn't say all the cars were aluminum...just that the SD was a package of stuff..to include aluminum too..I found it interesting that there was no difference in price whether you wanted aluminum or steel sheet metal...Steved put the RA V on a par with SD cars and I disagree with that..if indeed a couple came out the back door they would be in a whole different league...And if anyone could get them out the back door it would be Royal or Knafel ! BTW I was only in 2nd grade when the 63 SD came out.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

SS L78....was that Larry S ? Sixties and I owned that funny car ! I talked to him one time but never heard from him again ! His old partner is still in the north suburbs...I have a nice pic but file is too big

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Yes thats who I am talking about Larry. He is back in town and I run into him every once in a while. I told him you guys owned his funny car but he would really like to know if his super Duty Catalina is still around.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Jeff
I talked to the owner earlier about the block codes, and didn't relay that right. There is no VIN stamped. He promptly corrected me, and watch the following.... sent some pics.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

The owner has taken the motor out of the car since I saw it last, here is a pic of the front of the block where wanted me to show the broach marks. Along with the engine code.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

This code is cast in the side of the block, and may be exclusive to RAV blocks but not sure.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

This is the casting number in the intake.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

These are the heads and aluminum flywheel that were on the vehicle when he tore it down a year ago, he's not sure if it was GM. I just called him and sent him back out to his shop to find out if there is a GM number on it, seems like I've heard about such flywheels but not sure myself.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

MR MUSCLE I DONT HAVE TO SHARE WHAT CARS I HAVE WITH ANYBODY! LIKE THE OTHER POST SAID, ATLEAST PEOPLE KNOW WHO I AM! YOU DONT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT YOURSELF! WHY DONT YOU TELL ME WHAT CARS YOU HAVE? IM NOT TRYING TO BE SMART,AND I HAVE THE UPMOST RESPECT FOR ALOT OF THE MEMBERS ON THIS SIGHT. [GOD KNOWS ID LOVE TO OWN ONE OF THE SUPERCARS SOME OF YOU HAVE,BUT MAKE NO MISTAKE,WITH THE EXCEPTION OF JIM MATTISON,NOBODY ON THIS SIGHT HAS OWNED MORE GTO'S OR KNOWS MORE ABOUT THESE CARS! IVE JUNKED MORE JUDGES THAN MOST PEOPLE HAVE SEEN. IVE MADE IT MY LIFE WITH THESE CARS. I HAVE A PASSION FOR THEM. IVE HAD MY SHARE OF OTHER HIGH END CARS TOO! LIKE A 65 Z16,LS-6,L78'S 427 GALAXIES AND HEMI'S AND JUST SOLD A SD CATALINA. I CAN BE A GOOD FRIEND HERE AND DONT MIND SHARING ANY KNOWLEDGE WITH ANYBODY. I AGREE WITH MIKE THAT NEVER SAY NEVER BUT ITS TIME TO BE STRAIGHT. I DONT BELIEVE THAT CAR IS A REAL RA V CAR! IF IS IS LETS BRING IT OUT AND DOCUMENT IT! AND NOT WITH A BLURRY PIC LIKE THAT ONE. LOOKS LIKE HE TOOK IT WITHOUT PERMISSION. FOR THE RECORD I WISH THE CAR WAS REAL! BUT SOMEHOW IM THINKING THAT MONEY IS AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS ISSUE. MAYBE SOMEBODY WANTS TO CASH IN! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]I WILL POST THE INVOICE WITH MEMO ON IT, AND THE CAR IS NOT FROM KNAFLE! IF YOU LOOK CLOSELY THERES DIFFERENT NUMBERS NEXT TO MEMO. IF SOMEBODY EVER DECODES WHAT MEMO MEANS I THINK ALOT OF YOU WILL BE SURPRISED. HELP ME OUT WITH THIS JIM! EVERBODY IS A EXPERT!!!

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Sixties the Tin Indian is a 70 GTO. RA IV SD engines were supposedly installed in 70 Trans Ams, but no car has ever surfaced and no documeNtation exists to prove that these cars are real. Pontiac was going to put these cars into production but THE ENGINES WERE NEVER FEDERALLY CERTIFIED FOR EMISSIONS STANDARDS. I would love for one of these cars to exist because they would bring big dollars and bring the value of my RA IV car up wih it. Show me some real certified documentation or shut up!!!!!!!!. Did the WY get stamped by the franklin mint ??????

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Don

I'm not really sure what your going on about, but I'll leave that between you and Mr. Muscle please.

As for the cash in comment, I don't own the car, what would it benefit me in monetary value to prove this? I acknowledged what this means to me in a previous post, there is nothing in it about money. The actual owner is just like me in repect to ownership of personal cars, they will be with us as long as we are alive. I still own the very first GTO I bought in 79, and he still owns his first car. Along with others on both our parts, this Judge is no exception to him. His kids may sell it after he's dead, but he won't. And the car couldn't have a better home, he will take the best of care with it. And more importantly.... I somewhat put my friendship at risk bringing the car to a public light, he would have assumed no one ever known about.

And what you getting on to Astock about his pic for? From what I understand he was just scouting the car for purchase, not setting up for a professional photo shoot.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Steved the WY is interesting but the RA V had a different casting number then any 400 blocks made . What is it? And can we all see a picture of it? And finally show me the VIN number in the block because if it was factory that cars VIN will be in the block if not kiss my ass. At least an engineering number should be on the block. I have been around these cars since I was 17 and have owned and researched many Pontiacs. My 71 Judge won a gold at Nationals and was the first 71 Judge made and was tagged for Detriot and Atlantic City New Jersey autoshows and was the first Judge made for 71, the [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif[/img] build sheet backs up my mouth. I have owned many GTO's and Judges and I think I know what I am talking about.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

This thread rules!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Dajudge

I certainly hope you will be at Joplin next year, it will be an immense pleasure to meet you in person.

The owner of the car is already in his pj's and didn't feel like he needed to fill your request for another pic, I don't blame him. He did say to tell you the number is 481708, and tomrorrow he might go flip the block for a pic. But he thinks your a little over the edge.

If you will go back and read the previous post, you will see that I clearly stated there is no VIN number on the block. And no I will not kiss your butt.

You and Don both need to remember, this is not about what I have said. This is about what Bill Knafel has said. I don't know Bill personally, but I bet he has more integrity than anyone elses opinion in this matter.

Bragging about a car is not my style, racing is. Bring on your first 71 Judge, lets see if you can back it up at the track!!!

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

i think bill knafle tends to elaborate the truth of what he remembers. EVERYBODY LOVES A [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif[/img]GOOD STORY!

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I am sorry to see that an old car dealer has more respect and integrity than a person like Jim Mattison who actually worked for GM and has stated that a RA V car did not come from the factory, please review the past 100 posts to verify this quote. I never talked about drag racing my car but it did run a 13.2 at ATCO raceway and my RA IV car has run 12.98's with slicks. I think that's pretty respectible for stock cars with some tuning. Can't wait to meet you in Joplin, maybe we can even have a beer at Roadhouse Rubys or Guitars and Cadillacs, they are great bars and I would love to buy you a round. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Steved... I'd be interested in that Car that nobody seems to believe... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif[/img] Does he wanna sell it since all it seems to do is cause arguements ? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Wow! And I thought I knew something about debate! A lot of historical people and info is being rattled from the trees on this one!
Motown [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I will be starting to take bets on how long this thread will go!...forum leaders aren't allowed to make bets because they can stop a thread at any time (if I'm wrong feel free to bet as well)...let the betting begin.... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I never thought i could ask a simple question, and have it turn into a novel. Some good info though...... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img] Roger

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sixties the Tin Indian is a 70 GTO. RA IV SD engines were supposedly installed in 70 Trans Ams, but no car has ever surfaced and no documeNtation exists to prove that these cars are real. Pontiac was going to put these cars into production but THE ENGINES WERE NEVER FEDERALLY CERTIFIED FOR EMISSIONS STANDARDS. I would love for one of these cars to exist because they would bring big dollars and bring the value of my RA IV car up wih it. Show me some real certified documentation or shut up!!!!!!!!. Did the WY get stamped by the franklin mint ??????

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you telling ME to shut up??? I think you have me confused with one of the other posters. I didn't post the WY code picture, and, never said anything other than that my car is a RA IV car with an engine that has a RA V block. Apology will be accepted.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Normally I don't administer ass whoopins to follow Pontiac brethren, but I will make exception in this case. Mine is a street car, but you better bring more ponies if your going to take my challenge.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

John, the information about the two SD Grand Prix models is only part of the story. One 1962 SD Grand Prix sat in a back yard; basically ignored for 15 years. It was still there when the buyer went back to take a serious look at the sad car sitting in the mud. The 421 engine had blown up and had been replaced with a 389 engine. The old SD headers had been installed on the 389; this plus a number of other unique features raised more questions about what sort of Grand Prix model this car was. After dragging the car home there was much research to be done. Talking to knowledgeable people about this Grand Prix could not confirm what it was. Many were quick to say what it couldn't be; a SD Grand Prix! To get the answer about this car the owner contacted Pontiac. Fred Simmonds of PMD after days of research was able to confirm that the car was a real SD Grand Prix and one of just 16 units built. Six years after locating this rare Pontiac, the restored SD Grand Prix was shown at a PMD headquarters show. People were most impressed with the quality of the restoration and the rarity of this Pontiac. It won the "People's Choice Award". Following this success the Grand Prix was invited to the Meadowbrook show. A great result for some lost Pontiac history, that the public was allowed to see once again.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

dajudge, i was shocked to see you refer to mr knafel as an "old car dealer" that is so disrespectful to a man whose cars set many world records and was the most lethal pontiac drag racing team in history. you know that you nor i nor jim mattison ever worked in pontiacs engineering "hobby shop" we dont know what all really happened in there. mr knafel had been talking about these two judges before either one of them surfaced and had even wrote about them a few years later in the smoke signals (pontiac oakland club internationals club magazine for the chevy guys who might not know what it is) back in around 1999. do you think that they built this engine and never put it in a car to test it? mr knafel said the cars were sent to him to drag race. who knows maybe it was not intended to have them sold. but just like many experiemental cars that are in private collectors hands, it does happen. NEVER SAY NEVER usually you have to go back and eat your words. why are a few people so afraid to admit this could (and more likely than not) have happened?

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Charles,

------I would dearly love to see that SD Grand Prix.It sounds like a peice of artwork.What part of the country is it located in?
------My own 64 GP is,I feel nearly as rare as it is a true HO tri-power 421 4spd.Although there were around 3300 HO big body Pontiacs built in 64 there appears to be only 25 to 30 HO tri-powers installed in Grand Prixs.Ive owned the car since 1988 and am still trying to research this..............Bill S