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Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
I like it as raced <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For real...Ownership cost including the restoration cost and a boatload of NOS parts is currently at $250K.
Example: Current owner located the guy who made the car into the bushmaster. The original engine and the front sheet metal are in the guy's barn. Grille is broken but the rest is otherwise complete. Owner of the car had to buy the entire contents of the barn from the now very old race car guy just to get the front sheet metal...guy who had it was crazy and would not separate anything so he had to buy it all. This was the Bushmaster race car. </div></div> |
Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C1SS396</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like it as raced. </div></div> [/quote]
Would have been far cheaper to restore as a nostalgia race car for sure! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img] |
Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: L72copocamaro</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hopefully this doesn't offend anyone. I'm sure it will, but turrets won't let me stop....is it possible that with no hidden vins that it could be rebodied and only the trunk floor reused as evidence of it's history? That might explain the trunklid. </div></div>
[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/thumbsdown.gif[/img] it will only offend you when I have to waste more time posting pictures of the quarters being patched in. </div></div> Post away. They can't be any worse in comparison to the trunk lid photos. |
Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: L72copocamaro</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: L72copocamaro</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hopefully this doesn't offend anyone. I'm sure it will, but turrets won't let me stop....is it possible that with no hidden vins that it could be rebodied and only the trunk floor reused as evidence of it's history? That might explain the trunklid. </div></div>
[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/thumbsdown.gif[/img] it will only offend you when I have to waste more time posting pictures of the quarters being patched in. </div></div> Post away. They can't be any worse in comparison to the trunk lid photos. </div></div> Quarters were rebuilt and patched in. Trunk lid was restored using the original skin. You know perhaps you can explain something to me... Being serious and not sarcastic: With all the criticism and banter that goes on pertaining to a so called rebody restoration....when somebody actually goes all out to do the restoration in a way that saves literally everything that can be saved as accomplished with pilot #1 seemingly this is exactly what the hobby would applaud and support right?? Yet You seem critical...tell me why--I am curious as to the rationale. |
Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
I am the person the prior owner of the car first contacted when he realized he had #1. I don't question the car - it's real. I'd suggest posting some in-process pics of the original fenders and quarters to allay the naysayers.
I highly suspect this car got a much better resto than the #1 and #2 Firebirds got. Tag - no, you never mentioned it was a new computer system. It's original, but strange. Decklid - that's actually the 2nd version of the lid. The first version has no access holes (what were they thinking?) and is only on very early cars. Looks like the original was cut as black69 noted, but there wasn't much to go on. Sheetmetal - not surprising they were tagged and not stamped. Bet some were stamped (because they are part of the die design), but many stamps are hidden and hard to find. Block should be stamped. Posts like Tom's aren't helpful to the conversation, IMO. |
Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kurt S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am the person the prior owner of the car first contacted when he realized he had #1. I don't question the car - it's real. I'd suggest posting some in-process pics of the original fenders and quarters to allay the naysayers.
I highly suspect this car got a much better resto than the #1 and #2 Firebirds got. Tag - no, you never mentioned it was a new computer system. It's original, but strange. Decklid - that's actually the 2nd version of the lid. The first version has no access holes (what were they thinking?) and is only on very early cars. Looks like the original was cut as black69 noted, but there wasn't much to go on. Sheetmetal - not surprising they were tagged and not stamped. Bet some were stamped (because they are part of the die design), but many stamps are hidden and hard to find. Block should be stamped. Posts like Tom's aren't helpful to the conversation, IMO. </div></div> Looks like the thread has been educational to a degree then...also nice to see that we seem to agree that the #1 car has been found and has had a proper restoration. Excellent. |
Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kurt S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am the person the prior owner of the car first contacted when he realized he had #1. I don't question the car - it's real.
</div></div> enough said..thanks Kurt |
Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
So,I am here at my office discussing this car and thread with my Dad and he mentioned a very interesting memory from back then. The story goes like this.
My Pop and our family was visiting with my Godfather (must have been in 1966). I was born 1962. Then my godfather, who was some kind of a manager type at GM, told my Dad about the all new car Chevy was coming out with for the 67 model year. Then he came out of his bedroom and showed my Dad an IBM type printout (with the holes on both side). He said it was Chevrolet's list of 'possible names for thier new car soon to be released". My Dad remembers very clearly this conversation because he says that my Godfather was very in favor of the name "carrera" which was on the list.. (not sure on the spelling). This is because my Godfather's last name was Carriero. Last we heard from my Godfather was about 1985? when he gave a reference for my younger 18 yr old brother to get a job at the Fisher plant in Trenton. NJ..At the time my godfather was plant manager at a GM plant in Buffalo NY.. (not sure which). And beleive it or not, lil bro is going to retire from GM this September...4 GM plants and 30 years later !! I'd sure like to see that list now !! I am going to try and see if he is still around.. maybe there are some more memories that he could share. BTW....Awesome car !!! Thanks for saving and sharing history !!!!! |
Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
With all the criticism and banter that goes on pertaining to a so called rebody restoration....when somebody actually goes all out to do the restoration in a way that saves literally everything that can be saved as accomplished with pilot #1 seemingly this is exactly what the hobby would applaud and support right?? Yet You seem critical...tell me why--I am curious as to the rationale. </div></div> Because the Internet makes it easy to nit-pick and criticize. It empowers otherwise invisible people (yes, me too) to become visible by sounding educated and informed on a given subject, often while actually being not at all educated and informed on a given subject. People complain that the world has too many lawyers. Well, it seems many of those 'lawyers' exist on car forums for the sole purpose of making themselves visible through endless nit-picking and critique. If one of the "big gorillas" owned this car--and explained it as it has been explained here--the glowing praise and adulation would be nauseating. |
Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
I don't think anyone is outright critisizing to car, or the restoration directly, its just an attempt to find out how it was originally made, how much of it was original when the previous, or current owner got it and where it is now. It's only when people step in and either try and deflect the question, or feel the need to stick up for someone else that things start to turn awkward. Lets just stick to asking and answering questions to the best of our ability and eventually everyone will learn something. If we start bickering over that that and the other thing the opportunity to learn something about this car, and the other pilots will be lost.
This car is unique, and beyond being a hand built pre production car it has several oddities about it. I don't think anyone is questioning the realness of the car, we just want to know how it got to where it is today, either now, or back in 1967. For example the car has an 09B dated cowl tag (ok its been explained it was pulled from a body scheduled for september build), other very low VIN cars have way earlier tags including at least 1 that has an 05B dated tag which line up with the actual dates the pilots were assembled. This car has a later version trunk lid on it now as the very early cars don't have the holes for the emblems, and it looks like the original substructure in the original pictures may have been hole sawed (later?) to add the deck lid emblems. Because this car was originally wired for 110V power, maybe it had to be returned to Norwood in September(?) to get that wiring removed, maybe it got a new trunklid at that time with the emblem holes at that time. Who knows. You can't exactly go looking for NOS parts for a pre production car, maybe they are the same, maybe they are not, so saving as much as possible from whatever he had should be admired. Some people don't like seeing welds in the trunk or floor, well when they buy it they can replace the floor pan, it doesn't bother me that much, but then I wouldn't have had the cash to do it anyways. In the words of the late Rodney King "Can't we all just get along" at least for a while. Ask your questions, give an answer if you know it and we'll all learn something. |
Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
Was this car always known as the first 1967 camaro protoype with it's owners throughout it's life?
...or was it just recently realized? If the latter,when & who? |
Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paceme</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This car is historically significant and I appreciate that it's being discussed. I sense this thread is starting to get personal, so lets keep it on topic and informative. </div></div>
X2. Way toooo many extremist nitpicking at everything these days until it turns into a big damn highway or my way fight. Can't we all just enjoy what is left in our life whether it's restored or not? Geeze. |
Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
It is a pilot car, not a prototype.
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Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Yet You seem critical...tell me why--I am curious as to the rationale. </div></div> It's my nature to be skeptical until presented with the facts. Don't get me wrong, I think the car is real. I'm not questioning that at all. I just wonder how much of it is real. The reason given for saving the original trunk floor sounds unrealistic and the trunk lid photos that you posted do not help your position in my opinion. The car looks fantastic; kudos to the owner for getting it done, especially at that cost. But if you're going to put it out there and pump it up with originality, yet not show your work, you need to be prepared for the questions. |
Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr70</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Was this car always known as the first 1967 camaro protoype with it's owners throughout it's life?
...or was it just recently realized? If the latter,when & who? </div></div> Rick, The car's VIN was ignored until right around the time the car was placed on E-Bay as a race car when that owner fell on hard times and had to sell. The issue that had clouded the car's complete legitimacy is/was the current internet based working understanding of production sequencing and the application of that theorem to the manufacture of the experimental pilot cars. For example: In 2009 when the car was found the following information was posted in the original thread here in this site: __________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ 67L78conv enthusiast Registered: 11/25/05 Posts: 310 Loc: NJ USA 09B is actually OK for the early "Pilot" cars that have very very low VINs. Have no idea why but there are several documented pilot cars that have low numbers but the tags are dated 09B with a body number that is far to low for an 09B. For the cars that are known the body number used here along with the date lines up very well. Regular production cars had normal dated tags and what not. Is this car a "Pilot" car? Hard to say for sure with the current information I have but does look pretty good so far. __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________________________ The information posted by blogger 67L78Conv is correct - however the continued attempt by a few here to attach a later data based production logic to the build of this car cast a cloud over the car as various individuals attempted to purchase the car at a fire sale price -- while casting disparaging remarks in order to leverage the community in one way or the other. This is the dark side of social media...but it is what it is. The vast majority of the bad was over at the Team Camaro forum. The focal point of the fork in the discussion is Pilot car #10. Pilot car 10 is also body 10. Pilot car #10 also has misaligned hidden VIN's stamped into the body and obviously stamped by hand. Notable about the pilot book information on this specific car is the fact that its build information has no hand written changes incorporated into it's build specification and has option content that could have caused GM to make a specific IBM card for it (in May 1966) triggering the 05-B date on the Body plate and a sequence consistent with the Fisher DD10D designation. With the knowledge of this tag, its Vin and Production order and Date assigned, it would be therefore logical for the research group to weight the data there consistent with a "logical design" of the entire program and thus question the validity of the body plate on VIN#10001 as Kurt did in 2009: __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________________ Kurt S Pooh-Bah Registered: 08/01/00 Posts: 1600 Loc: Ann Arbor, MI I was contacted when this car was originally found. The cowl tag is out of sequence for the car. There's one other early 67 car like this. A guess would be they didn't have cowl tags originally and they retrofitted them. __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________________________ This is as far as I go with this because to go farther opens up a litany of historical disputes that all have origins based in social media conflict where the people on forums are in disagreement on a variety of technical issues. On one side there is the data and the assumptions based upon that data. On the other side is the GM documents the surviving cars and the workers who built them. I was getting ready to reveal this car right over at the Camaro Research Group Site. However several days before I announce the reveal there-- I was banned from that site, consequently I contacted Charley and got advance permission to do the reveal here on Yenko.net |
Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: L72copocamaro</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Yet You seem critical...tell me why--I am curious as to the rationale. </div></div> It's my nature to be skeptical until presented with the facts. Don't get me wrong, I think the car is real. I'm not questioning that at all. I just wonder how much of it is real. The reason given for saving the original trunk floor sounds unrealistic and the trunk lid photos that you posted do not help your position in my opinion. The car looks fantastic; kudos to the owner for getting it done, especially at that cost. But if you're going to put it out there and pump it up with originality, yet not show your work, you need to be prepared for the questions. </div></div> No problem at all... However I am not able to spend vast amounts of time posting Photos. As I said earlier the car was the subject of 2200 individual restoration photographs. These photographs will be incorporated into planned a rolling exhibit on the car currently scheduled for next year. My recommendation would be to go and see the car while on tour and view the photographs at that time. |
Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
These photographs will be incorporated into planned a rolling exhibit on the car currently scheduled for next year. My recommendation would be to go and see the car while on tour and view the photographs at that time. </div></div> Will you be posting a tour schedule? |
Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
Yes
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Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
I am pleased to announce that 1967 Camaro VIN 123377N100001 will go on public display at MCACN 2014. The owner has had a mini documentary produced to tell the story of the first production Camaro built.
The documents, the photos,the extensive history and research on this car will be presented as part of the documentary which will be looped on a big screen next to the car. |
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EXCELLENT!!
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Those of you attending MCACN this year will have an enormous number of really great cars to look over and your time will be at a premium...so many really great cars and so little time! The owner of N100001 wanted to be as transparent as possible about the great story of this car and has created a website to tell the basic story of the first Camaro built and has authorized the site roll out right here on Yenko.net
The film documentary is almost ready also-so when you stop by to see the car be sure to check it out too on the TV located by the display. http://www.pilotcarregistry.com/ |
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It just occurred to me that some of you reading about N100001 may think it strange that the Retirees of UAW 674 use the union hall of Local 647 for the summer picnic...due to the number of retirees from Norwood that are still active the 674 hall on Symmes Rd in Fairfield just is not big enough so 647's hall is rented and that is where the Gold gem was displayed. These guys built our Impalas, Camaros and Firebirds. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]
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Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
<span style="font-weight: bold">This is going to be an awesome display, with some incredibly significant display properties along with N100001 and some of the folks that were there when it actually rolled off the line. This is an excellent opportunity to see how it really was "back in the day" and hear from those who were there making history.
Thanks go out to COPO70 and all of the <span style="font-style: italic">Norwood Ambassadors </span>that will be joining us at MCACN, November 22-23. Bashton MCACN Managing Member</span> |
Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
The owner Of Camaro #1 is at it again... He just purchased PILOT #10...this is notably the first Pilot convertible located over 32 years ago now...also congrats to Rich Fields of the CRG who was interviewed for the article.
Here: http://triblive.com/mobile/7261637-96/car-camaro-pilot Be sure to click on the gallery for more photos. This car is a book end for #1 and makes complete sense to acquire. |
Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
A complete restoration ahead for this pilot car is an Understatement.
I saw this 67 on the trailer at our Norwin Cruise a year and 1/2 ago,, it was a sight for curious eyes and inquiring minds. Low Vin, Low Body #'s and needing one of everything, Two of most and three of any thing else. Solid Shell, partial interior with power windows. I didn't see an engine or trans in it or a front clip.....327/210 power glide I think. Good Luck to the new owner/resto shop and congrats to the longtime owner in placing it with the right people......It's a really cool piece of history [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/scholar.gif[/img] |
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Corey says he looking forward to the restoration of Pilot car #10. For anyone who may have not made it to MCACN..here is #1 as displayed and with the Norwood Ambassadors [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]
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Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
As a native of Cincinnati and touring the Norwood Assembly plant in May 1966, I was very excited to become a part of this history of uncovering this #10 pilot car and documenting the car to help bring the car and its many parts into the "light". By a remote chance from a "69 Camaro Z28 owner at a car show who referred me to the owner, the timing was just perfect in finding this car which had been sitting on jack stands for 32 years. Along with the Norwood Plant History from Phil Borris efforts to write and publish his fantastic book "Echoes of Norwood" covering the pilot car history brought a greater dimension to what I had found. My goal was to have this car saved and I believe Corey and his son will be up to making this a fine restoration to preserve a valuable part of our automotive history for future generations to enjoy. I look forward to helping them do further parts research and to help them complete the restoration.
Jay Stokes |
Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
Jay,
Thanks for the support. The history on pilot production is being revealed in remarkable clarity.. If you have not had an opportunity check out Lawson's site at http://www.pilotcarregistry.com/ It now contains data on each car. Just click on the main tabs and the sub tabs. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img] |
Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
Here's another early (8D) Camaro that just popped up on the 'Bay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Camaro...=US_Cars_Trucks |
Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
Fisher #2556 VIN 123377N102435 [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]
Early regular production... looks like it was parked sometime during the pro street craze. |
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Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: L72copocamaro</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
These photographs will be incorporated into planned a rolling exhibit on the car currently scheduled for next year. My recommendation would be to go and see the car while on tour and view the photographs at that time. </div></div> Will you be posting a tour schedule? </div></div> 2015 dates to see N100001 April 30th Scottsdale AZ at the Barrett-Jackson display showroom. Open to the public. May 16th at the Detroit Belle Isle Grand Prix circuit. 2016 Camaro reveal event. Closed event June 26, 27, 28, at Solid Lifter Showroom Carlisle All GM nationals. Open to the public |
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Getting questions as to the April 30th display in Scottsdale AZ.
This is a very special day as the car will be on display and in addition a very special guest will join us. Scottsdale Resident Herb Leitz the Plant Manager of Chevrolet Norwood Final Assembly will be there to say "Hi" and talk about the Norwood plant and its operations. Herb was the Deputy Plant Manager under Jack Rhodes from 1967 through early 1969 and then succeeded Mr. Rhodes as the full plant manager through the end of the 1971 build out. The Herb Leitz "reunion" will be hosted at the Barrett-Jackson showroom in Scottsdale and Herb will be there most of the day to meet and greet Camaro and Firebird owners. Bring your car and a sharpie marker - Herb will be happy to sign and autograph or your trunk lid if you want him to. There will also be copies of the Team #1 Norwood employee newspaper front page from 1970 that Herb will also autograph if you want a copy. Several artifacts will be on display including the ultra cool "Norwood production gang Wire Tree" which was a gift to Herb While at Norwood. Here is Herb on the right side of the vintage photo accepting the Wire tree in 1970. The second Photo is Herb and his extended family today. He is now 88! The man in the center of the family photograph is Steve Leitz - Herb's Son. Steve worked the assembly line at Norwood in 1968 while in attending school. Steve will be there to meet and greet and talk about life on the "long line" while assembling the 1968's. |
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Here is one of the event flyers. Herb may stay later than 12:30 we will see how he feels.. media and TV interviews are set during this period of time as well so he will be one busy 88 year old guy. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img]
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Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
Great photos & read.
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I am glad to see Mr Leitz is doing well.
I worked in his organization as a young buck, in a newly created position which demonstrated the now commonplace concept of having assembly plant representation in the engineering community. I found him to be intelligent, fair and an excellent administrator/manager (as you might expect) and I appreciated my time there. Please give him my best wishes. K http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/...ps9yqo41hl.jpg |
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Keith,
Sad to report that he is not well and has entered pulmonary Hospice... That is why this event was arranged so quickly. This is a 100% mercy mission. We need to do things quickly before things deteriorate. |
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Good article in the daily mail on yesterday's Herb Leitz Reunion event with pictures too.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...ction-line.html |
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Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Keith,
Sad to report that he is not well and has entered pulmonary Hospice... That is why this event was arranged so quickly. This is a 100% mercy mission. We need to do things quickly before things deteriorate. </div></div> Ouch - I am sorry to hear that bit of news (sorry for the assumption on my part). Prayers lifted up for Mr Leitz and his family, and glad to see the event was a hit. K |
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