The Supercar Registry - ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson

The Supercar Registry (https://www.yenko.net/forum/index.php)

- COPO - United States (https://www.yenko.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=94)

- - ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson (https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=120365)

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson

This has to be one of the nicest restored COPO out there. Love the color.

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson

----Like your occupation and hobby, Mel! Wife says I do both and I never knew I could make a living at it......Bill S

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson

I agree with Mel, nicest COPO I have ever seen....and I have seen a bunch in my years going to shows in the US.

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hylton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This:

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...vin_zl1_48.jpg

Certainly didn't come from this:

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...7-dsc05742.jpg
</div></div>

I don't agree. I think the real photo was taken on an angle and thru the windshield which distorted it o make the numbers look higher and narrower. The fonts are dead nuts on only the pencil scratch looks to have numbers that are wider,and actually look more like a real VIN tag. Somebody should go to their garage and take a pic of their 69 Camaro VIN thru the windshield from the same angle and then do a pencil scratch and compare for themselves. It is he only way to know for sure.

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson

The dates on the inner A-pillars,outer rockers,cowl sides and inner roof would be the critical ones. Even if the car were resurrected from a backhalfed race car or even tube chassis car,at least 3 out of those 5 should have survived. Somebody could claim that the face of the firewall,floor,frame rails,package tray,quarters and tail panel were replaced because the car was a full blown race car,but the firewall with at least the a-pillars or outer rockers should be original. Just my $.02

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson

Interesting,the car in question does have very dark marks through the spaces in the digits,mine are lighter. I do see that there are light marks above the numbers where a pencil couldn't make good contact because the tag was mounted in a car. Mine was difficult,the roll bar made it hard to get a pencil in there,and the tag didn't have the metal backing plate behind it,so it wasn't siting firm behind the dash board. mine was done with a dull pencil. His lokes like the pencil was harp and being run over from a directly above angle.

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson

----Im thinking to forget all about everything else. Concentrate on the "9s"!!!.....Bill S

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson

It's not only the 9s. Imagery change detection software threw the following where image 1 = pencil and image 2 = picture. Software never gives 100% for some reason! even if you compare pictures of apples and oranges.....99% = absolute

1. 1st character in image 1 higher in relative position: probability: 72%
2. 3rd character inconsistent width, image 1 wider: probability: 34%
3. 4th character inconsistent dimensions, image 1 lower half elongated: probability: 92%
4. 6th and 11th characters inconsistent pattern, image 1 lower half angle: probability: 99%
5. 10th and 11th character spacing, image 1 gap wider: probability: 94%

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson

So, are you saying that the image detection software liked or didn't like the nines @ 99% probability? Hard to believe that it would like them.

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson

O.K. Now I am seeing the problems. The 9 on the pencil tracing is definatly not the same,but the funny thing is that both of my 9's and his 9 on his real tag are the same. I have seem numbers located up and down out of line on many tags. I see that on both my real tag and pencil trace,the #1 looks to be offset to the left edge of the block for that digit. His isn't on either the tracing or real tag. I don't know the reason why the #1 on his looks to be higher in the tracing then on the tag,I know the pencil has to be run at different angles to get all the digits completely,so I wonder if trying to trace at the top left corner put him at an awkward angle. I know that mine looks much more accurate from tag to trace,and mine is very hard to get to because it is behind a bar on a roll cage and is sunk into the dash on what seems to be a lightly acid dipped car. My pencil was definitely much duller then his,and mine looks mire like somebody rubbed some kind of carbon over the paper,but it is in fact pencil. I cant explain much other then the 9's and the spacing of the first digit seem off on his. I know nothing about his car,so don't think that I have any bias here,I just like to help on these issues.

As for my tag,it is for my 70 race car that I am trying to find he history on,and I have the VIN all over the internet,so I figured I was the person who would not care about sharing pictures.

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson

The funny thing is that despite the obvious differences between his tag and trace,his tag looks authenic by comparison when compared to mine,and his trace is the odd duck out. I don't know why somebody would make a fake trace when they have a perfectly good tag to trace. My opinion is that there is nothing to make me think that his tag is fake. I would accept it as real based on font and letter spacing. I do own 3 Norwood built 2nd Gens and one LA built later 2nd gen and probably have owned another 20 on top of that.Just my $.02. Like I said,I have no skin in this and don't know the car or the guy in any way. Just trying to help.

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, are you saying that the image detection software liked or didn't like the nines @ 99% probability? Hard to believe that it would like them. </div></div>

99% probability that they are not the same

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson

This is a very interesting discussion, I have access to a atomic particle identification laser machine and I had the offending VIN pictures analyzed and the results are very surprizing. It appears that in both rubbing photos a normal lead pencil was NOT used to make the rubbings. Until we find out what type of pencils were used we will never know if the "9"s are real or not!

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson

That's pretty interesting.......I've never heard of assessing atomic particles within the contents of imagery...........you must have both physical rubbings in your possession in order to assess atomic particles. Perhaps your Flux Capacitor needs a tune up?

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson

No replies to this? Darn.

Jason

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson

Who's Zed and what's an L-1?

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson

After a few zed l-1s, I had to quit watching!

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson

Back to the facts for a moment, more than one car may be wearing ZL1 #48's identity and the fraud car w/ wrong body # & bogus tags sold @ the 2013 Toronto auction may be only one of them?
Again some 'lost' ZL1's still have legal owners/insurance co's that could lay claim to cars bearing these identities so spending $ on any vehicle these #'s are affixed to could quickly become a very costly venture?

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/thumbsdown.gif[/img]
~ Pete

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson

He.
really.
likes.
the.
sound.
of.
his.
own.
voice.

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson

I was hoping whoever bought it would of flew in jerry to inspect and clear the air on the car, but I guess that's not going to happen, they stole it if it checks out ok even with the bad cowl tag, but we will never know I guess.

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson

JIm from Heartbeat City called me some months back on his way up to look at the car in Canada. It was for sale @ $ 200k. I told him the story regarding # 48. He was going to call after he looked at the car. I never heard back from Jim. I guess he didn't buy it.

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson

Anyone heard of insurance companies looking into cars like this?

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson

Maybe this thread is not the correct place for this info., but I see "ProTeam Corvette Sales" Terry Michaelis is still advertising the engine from Malcom Durham's race car. I had heard this block was severely damaged. I seem to remember this engine being discussed elsewhere on this site. Oh, by the way, asking price is $50g's. The block supposedly retains the factory stamped VIN and suffix codes.

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ZL1 # 48 For Sale listing

More pics and info ZL1 # 48 </div></div>

Amazing!!!

Was this ever sorted out? Seems to me that the real 48 could have just been missing the cowl tag like so many race cars of the day.
Usually this resulted in the whole firewall being cut out and tossed as well, so the lower hidden vin would also be missing. I knew a guy with a 69 z28 that he turned into a race car back in the day and he regretted cutting and tossing the firewall later on...
If the person who had this car with the vin plate was just honest about the missing pieces, it would have been a lot easier to understand. Especially since simple math figures out the correct body number without much work, you would think somebody would at least make that right. so far it looks as if its not right.

‘

Took a few years but the truth about this thread’s subject being a Fraud car w/ Bogus VIN Tag stamped 124379N618902 masquerading as ZL1#48 was finally exposed in a 2022 Montreal Court Case, text below from this article…
https://lawinquebec.com/montreal-car...o-pay-damages/
:beers:
~ Pete

.

MONTREAL CAR DEALER ORDERED TO PAY DAMAGES FOR SELLING FAKE - 18 MAR 2022
/
By Luis Millán

The 1969 ZL1 Camaro is a legendary muscle car. It is a beast of a car, raw, powerful and quick, and was actually designed for drag racing, capable of exceeding 500 horsepower. Only 69 were made, and it’s worth a fortune, with collectors paying as much as US$1 million.

Brad Kyle thought he got his hand on one of these rare vintage automobiles, number 48 of 69. In February 2014 the head of Town & Country Chrysler Ltd., a new and used car dealer that occasionally sells exotic sports cars, purchased the car for $395,000 (plus tax) from Rolls-Royce Motor Cars Limité, a Montreal car dealership specializing in the sale of exotic and luxury cars.

As part of the deal, Kyle was supposed to receive documents, including the build sheet, the original bill of sale, servicing bills and warranty paper work, to establish the authenticity of the car.

Several months later, in October 2014, despite the fact that Town & Country still had not received any of the required documents, it sold the car to John Scotti Auto for US$500,000, conditional on receiving the paperwork and on an inspection by Jerry MacNeish, a certified appraiser and renowned authority on Camaros.

Kyle and Scotti Auto, never received the documents. Scotti Auto cancelled the sale, and Town & Country sued, basing its cause of action on Rolls-Royce’s failure to follow through its obligation to deliver, under article 1736 of the Civil Code. Kyle also sought damages, claiming compensation for the loss of profit following the cancellation of the subsequent sale of the car to John Scotti.

An undisputed and uncontradicted expert report by MacNeish concluded the car he inspected was not number 48 of the 69 Camaros produced. Indeed, it was not even a ZL1, worth no more than US$70,000. MacNeish found evidence that there were efforts to hide the car’s true nature, and that it was a “bad rebody.”

“This car should be investigated to locate all past owners. A serious investigation should take place to find out who tried to recreate this 1969 Camaro into one of the very rare 69 ZL-1 Camaros built at the Norwood, Ohio plant. There may be serious fraud issues due to the misrepresentation of this vehicle to potential buyers,” said MacNeish.

In Town & Country Chrysler Ltd. c. Rolls-Royce Motor Cars Québec limité, 2022 QCCS 850, Quebec Superior Court Justice André Roy concluded that Kyle was entitled to “resolution of the sale” and to damages because Rolls-Royce breached its obligation to deliver.

[106] The contract of sale expressly stipulates that Town & Country will receive the 48th 1969 Camaro ZL1. No waiver of legal warranty could excuse Rolls-Royce from its obligation to deliver this specific car promised in the contract.

Justice Roy annulled the sales contract, ordered Rolls-Royce Motor Cars to pay $424,750 within 30 days of the judgment, and damages amounting to $175,491.

[129] In light of the circumstances of the case at hand, Town & Country has established that the damages it sustained were an immediate and direct consequence of Rolls-Royce’s default and that they are certain and assessable.

[130] The direct and certain result of Rolls-Royce’s failure to deliver a Camaro ZL1, number 48 of the 50 Gibb cars, was that Town & Country could not resell the car to Scotti Auto.

[131] Since the sale price was established between Town & Country and Scotti Auto, it follows that the damages in the form of loss of profit are certain and assessable.

[132] As for the criterion of forseeability, it is hard to imagine anything more foreseeable than a car dealership selling cars for profit.

[133] Thus, on November 4, 2014, when Scotti « cancelled the deal », Town & Country was deprived of a profit it had rightfully earned.

===

Wonder where that leaves this car now? There are plenty of ‘air car’ Ferraris and super rare/expensive cars out there with absolutely zero or very few original parts and no serial numbers. And they are accepted in the collector world.

Does the Georgia paperwork not seem legit? My original ZL-1 had a 0 on the MSO instead of a 9 (on the VIN) most likely because it did not sell til June of 70. Seems like a legit possible mistake.

Is it possible that this car existed back then and was rebodied when restored ?

Or would this car now need to be destroyed ? Could it be resold?

I would guess that it could only be sold as a clone, replica, tribute or whatever you want to call it.

I really hope they followed the owner history back and sued the builder who committed the fraud first.

An undisputed and uncontradicted expert report by MacNeish concluded the car he inspected was not number 48 of the 69 Camaros produced. Indeed, it was not even a ZL1, worth no more than US$70,000. MacNeish found evidence that there were efforts to hide the car’s true nature, and that it was a “bad rebody.”

“This car should be investigated to locate all past owners. A serious investigation should take place to find out who tried to recreate this 1969 Camaro into one of the very rare 69 ZL-1 Camaros built at the Norwood, Ohio plant. There may be serious fraud issues due to the misrepresentation of this vehicle to potential buyers,” said MacNeish.

Whoa.

What engine is in this car?

Original guy probably could have stated that it is a rebody with no/repo cowl tag and got away with it. (may be just that).

I believe there are a few “real” ZL-1s the same (nothing but a VIN) that have sold for big $.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iluv69s (Post 1654840)

with these cars being raced and hacked up I'm sure all kinds of shenanigans has happened with the copo cars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iluv69s (Post 1654840)

Big bucks maybe, but not approaching what no issues ZL-1s sell for. The two that have been disclosed as re-bodies are #9 [124379N608879] and #27 [124379N609965].

#9 sold at B-J AZ 2012 $451k. Sold there again this year, $495k.

#27 sold at B-J AZ 2009 [prior to disclosure] $319k, again 2019 $231k. Sold again B-J LV 2022 $159,500.

Even non-original engine ZL-1s do well. #60 sold at Mecum FL 2021 $825k. #61 at B-J AZ 2023 $770k.

Other ZL-1s are rumored to be re-bodied, not going there.