Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Les, you mention looking for the hidden VIN under the heater box. What's to say that all the hidden VINs were not restamped?
James

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

I guess I saw a crowd of gapers and came to see what was going on. Was this the green Z that had the ss and z emblems on the front?????

I saw that car go over and was mesmerized by the color and lights etc. I remember thinking wow is that a beautiful car.

What ever happens it's a shame https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/frown.gif

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

James,
Your right I guess the hidden heaterbox VIN could be restamped? I was proceeding on the assumption there is some VIN somewhere on a camaro that couldn't be restamped without leaving evidence of tampering/welding some trail? Not being a camaro expert and in fact being a newbie camaro guy I leave that to the experts.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Gary posted his phone number numerous times in the original post

I did not write it down

He is a real person

there was a real sale of the items on ebay years ago

the same VIN appeared on a shell a year AFTER he sold the "memorabilia"

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

I would submit if thats all true, all of us in the hobby have an interest in helping to protect buyers. If the buyer is in fact Ron Pratt he is good for the hobby in that he keeps buying cars in a terrible market which helps support the value's of all our muscle cars. He seems to be an avid collector and it seems to me we want all the collectors we can get in this hobby? If he buys what later turns out to be a re-bodied car he won't be happy and may be unhappy enough to get out of the hobby? I think we need more collectors and buyer not less. In that regard if he is the buyer and if anyone can contact him I think someone should let him know what we seem to know for him to form his own opinion? I think it needs to be done immediately before the car leaves Vegas if it hasn't and before the sale proceeds are issued to the seller.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know why I am following this perhaps its like stopping to look at an auto accident on the side of the road?

Its my understanding the original shell absent the identity tags was sold and the identity tags with the paperwork was sold at another time??? Then we are presuming they were never reunited?????????

Anyway, NJSteve I think despite the boilerplate consignment K the buyer is a buyer in good faith and if his funds have not been disbursed BJ can and should withhold payment to the seller pending the cloud being removed from the title? In this case I think the cloud can be removed by removing a fender and checking for the hidden heaterbox VIN? That would be best answered by a Camaro expert? The way I read the K, BJ doesn't waive liability for selling a car with an illegally transferred VIN once they are put on notice. Absent notice I think they have no liability? In this case it appears BJ is on notice the car may have the VIN and identity of another car and I think if I was advising them I would advise them to withhold the funds and put the funds in escrow. I would also advise them to just go out and pull the fender while this is removal is being videotaped and look for the VIN. The NHP would also do it while the car is still here. If no VIN or wrong VIN I would tell the seller to pick up his car and give the buyer his money back. It doesn't matter whether the seller was a good faith seller in due course he is stuck with the car. I know BJ doesn't pay their sellers for at least a month so the funds should still be there. If the car has been shipped it needs to come back to Vegas and NHP can investigate its identity.
What do you think?


[/ QUOTE ]

Great point. I totally forgot about the delay in payment that the auction houses have. This is the exact reason it's there (and to collect that month's worth of interest on the money https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif).

Now that the auction house and the seller/buyer are all on notice of this issue, I bet that at least the NHP and the NICB will be there for an inspection. The NICB has a lot of experienced investigators that specialize in examining VIN swaps for chop shop cases. They have a lot of "vintage" car guys that know their vintage cars, too.

BTW, I mentioned this idea on the Camaro site:

This would be a great opportunity for someone to establish a "pre-certification" process that documents a car's body/drivetrain as "born-with" by establishing baseline conditions before any work is done on it, as well as during and after the restoration.

It's kind of like getting permits for building a house...you get the foundation OK'd then the electrical checked off, then the plumbing, etc., until the final certificate of occupancy is granted. You don't just build the house and get the paperwork afterwards to prove you did it correctly.

For example: you find that proverbial semi-rusty, barn-find, black and gold ZL-1 and that's when you have someone come out and photograph/document every square inch of it including all the confidential VIN locations. Then when it's in the midst of the metal work, he comes back again to check it off, and then after paint you get a certificate of originality (or occupancy if you aren't going to drive the darn thing https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif).

It's kind of like what we do here by photgraphically documenting our never-ending restoration stories. You are there to see every step from the find to the finish with no mysterious missing chapters.
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
I worked at a parts store back in Montana through the 1990's and had become known as a Camaro source. I had one person bring in pics of his 1969 Z/28 Camaro he had bought new. I am pretty sure it is same car. Flat hood rally green white stripes rally sport z. also it did have chambered exhaust on it. If you watch the part where they show the original photo the car has a Montana License plate on the front. The first two #'s on the plate signify the county where car is registered. I had the DVR record the event and had my wife watch the green Z/28. Because green is her favorite color. She is the one who noticed the original Conrad Montana license plate in the photograph.

[/ QUOTE ]

I remember seeing what looked like a Montana plate in the old picture, too. They were showing that old picture to back up the fact that the car had both the RS emblem and the Z28 emblem on the grille.

So, did that guy in Montana still own the 69 Z when you were there in the 1990's, or had he sold it long before then? This could help determine whether or not the car that 'Gary' owned is the same car that was sold at the B-J auction....because I'm not sure if it was anything more than speculation as to whether the cars were the same or not https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif Perhaps this was verified, but between all the postings on several different websites, I don't remember for sure https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Here is where I am confused. Are we certain tha the VIN on the paperwork previously sold on ebay is the same as the car sold this weekend at BJ? If so? Was that same ebay paperwork sold with this car this weekend?

Exactly what items were previously sold on ebay as "memorablia" and were their VINs on those items that belonged on the car that just sold? Sorry for the confusion. With so may threads on so many forums with so many deletions I am confused?

I can't make out what is depicted in the picture on this thread regarding the paperwork? Was a trim plate sold with the items?

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

On page 11 of this thread their is a picture with a trim plate, protecto plate and another piece of metal, plus other documents? Does anyone know with certainty that the VINs on those items match the VIN on the camaro sold Saturday night? Whats the piece of metal supposed to be?

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

From what was posted in the CRG thread, the VIN of the B-J car was the same as the tags/paper sold by Gary years ago.

The piece of metal is the cutout section that contains the hidden VIN under the cowl.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

pretty sure I read on the closed thread he said he checked his old copied paperwork with the numbers posted at the auction and they were the same...I may be having a senior moment but that's what I recall reading. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

He has already been pointed this direction !!

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]

I remember seeing what looked like a Montana plate in the old picture, too. They were showing that old picture to back up the fact that the car had both the RS emblem and the Z28 emblem on the grille. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

When we judged the car at Carlisle the owner showed us the picture of the car when it was supposedly brought home from the dealer. The picture was dated a year later and I doubt that was mentioned during the auction. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

Rick H.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

If the piece of metal sold on ebay is the VIN under the cowl and that piece of metal containing the VIN is on the car sold this weekend and the trim plate sold on ebay also matches the VIN of the car sold this weekend then that car needs to be impounded before it leaves Vegas and NHP needs to be brought in. Just follow the piece of metal with the VIN on it. Whatever car it is currently on has been used to perpetuate a fraud and whomever welded that piece of metal with the VIN on it to the car has changed the identity of a car.
Geez, does anyone know if BJ has this information? Is anyone certain they have the correct VIN and lot number of the car sold this weekend? I will make some calls today? Thanks.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

If we are talking about the car Pratt bought,its already arrived the other day with the LS6 convert and a few others !! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/blush.gif

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

I am sure Mr. Pratte has been informed about this topic and will no doubt be asking BJ to make this go away. I am sure the car will show up at another auction soon or on Ebay.
He has madea lot of purchases with BJ and they will not want him to go away mad.

Paul

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

If the allegations are true the car needs to be destroyed its not a clone or tribute but if true a fake. If this information is true someone else shouldn't have to go through this and may not have Ron's clout to resolve this? If its in Arizona the highway patrol needs to be notified. BJ or Ron if he is the buyer should ensure this car is destroyed for the good of the industry.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Destroy a perfectly good car ? Les..Calm down.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Mr Pratte should ask the seller to come down, remove the fender & heater box to check the 2nd vin and prove it's real or not. Heck, why not fly the previous owner, Gary, down at the same time. If it proves to be rebodied, then the seller can take it back home with him & pay BJ both commissions.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

I'll take it (Priced accordingly) and Drive the Tires off it........ https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

Ken https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif
(Non Numbers Guy)

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'll take it (Priced accordingly) and Drive the Tires off it........ https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

Ken https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif
(Non Numbers Guy)

[/ QUOTE ]

And drive it like he stole it...just keep it on the pavement Ken! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

If the allegations are indeed true, nothing says the fraudster wasn't detailed enough to include a matching Vin in both hidden locations..

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif
~ Pete

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

What makes this CAR any different from an extremely rusty shell that has had 95% of the metal replaced in order to "save" it. Yes the car has been "vin swapped" and the sellers have never disclosed this. What is the difference between swapping plates on a 6 cyl rust free body and a hidden vin to save a very rare and valuable car and replacing 95% of the metal on the real car? I do not see a difference whatsoever.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

there is a HUGE difference when it is touted as being "original", at least IMHO

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Thats the thing, it was sold as original. One of the most documented original Zs out there. Personally I wouldnt care if it was rebodied. Choosing between a car with 95% Chinese repro metal and 5% (cowl where tags are attached) real and one thats been rebodied with a shell made by GM, Ill take the rebody. So tell me what one is more real.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

HI what is it worth now

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

A Vin jumped car being illegal is one BIG difference!.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif
~ Pete

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Put what this car was represented as aside please. What I am talking about here is JUST the car itself. I saw a few posts earlier that someone said the car should be DESTROYED (Les Quam i believe it was). If the vins were never "stolen" and 2 cars were purchased legally and the vin and hidden numbers were switched to SAVE a very rare set of numbers, then I don't see what the difference is between saving a car with 95% of the metal needing to be replaced and one that is completely solid and had a rare set of numbers put on it from a very rusty body to save a piece of GM history.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

IMO, one should start with a car and restore/replace what's needed.

Starting with nothing more than a set of tags just doesn't sit right with me. What exactly is being restored in a case like that?

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Its a federal crime to do what you just stated. That's the difference. Assume for the moment that the VIN cowl and cowl vin numbers came from a body that truly was destroyed, how do you know where the new donor body came from and what its legal status was. Anyone had a 69 Camaro stolen that this body might have come from? I don't think that whoever swapped the tags and hidden VINs had the appropriate authorities come down and examine him doing it and got the appropriate blessings (if there even is a way to do this).

Forget that the rebodied car is not worth close to 125K that was paid for it. It was marketed as one of the most original 69 Z28s ever.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Disregarding the legality of the restorers actions and the way it was marketed, is it possible the buyer did not care about matching numbers and just liked the car? He appears to have the resources to be able to overpay due to personal preference.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Any day he wants a 69 pacecar for 125K he can have mine, I'll even deliver it.

Seriously who, no matter how much money they have, would over pay by at least two and a half times what the car would have been worth with a "restoration drive train" and an original body, let alone a rebody and nothing original on it (if we are to beleive the story).

Would Bill gates pay 10 bucks for a hamburger when the retail price is 1.39 just because he's Bill Gates. I doubt it.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

I missed the part where he paid $125k. That is a lot.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

What the Hell is a "restoration drive train" anyways?

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
What the Hell is a "restoration drive train" anyways?

[/ QUOTE ]

Guessing restamped/restored to appear "as was" when new. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What the Hell is a "restoration drive train" anyways?

[/ QUOTE ]

Guessing restamped/restored to appear "as was" when new. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it's a perfect imitation if there even can be such a thing and the 'restoration' engine or drivetrain names came from the Corvette crowd..

I always think of it as kind've like the Jaguar owners club...they like telling everyone how superior of an automobile they are yet when you get one, you soon learn the truth and it's too late so you have to either join the others in the liar's club or lose money..

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif
~ Pete

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
Put what this car was represented as aside please. What I am talking about here is JUST the car itself. I saw a few posts earlier that someone said the car should be DESTROYED (Les Quam i believe it was). If the vins were never "stolen" and 2 cars were purchased legally and the vin and hidden numbers were switched to SAVE a very rare set of numbers, then I don't see what the difference is between saving a car with 95% of the metal needing to be replaced and one that is completely solid and had a rare set of numbers put on it from a very rusty body to save a piece of GM history.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fast67VelleN20,

The difference plain and simple is that IT IS A FELONY, period, end of story. It doesn't matter what your altruistic reasons are, for example, that you are saving the only one of its kind, or you had a 6 cyl perfect body and the original body was too rusty to save, etc. The law has no loophole for restorations. (-if you want that loophole, call your congressman and lobby for it. Maybe we can then call them "Restoration Bodies" to go along with the "Restoration Engines" already out there)

Your opinion doesn't matter in criminal court.

If you take the VIN from one body and put it on another IT IS A FELONY. If you sell, buy, trade a VIN tag IT IS A FELONY. (I know I am beginning to sound like Jeff Foxworthy here...You might be a felon if...)

The VIN dies with the car. There is no reincarnation with VIN plates. There is no transplantation with VINs. There is no Hindu caste system with VINs that elevates one from a Z/28 to a higher Karmic level than one from a 6 cyl coupe.

O.J. didn't think it was robbery and kidnapping to bring a bunch of thugs with guns into a hotel room and order people around and take their property. But guess what, robbery and kidnapping are still felonies regardless of your personal beliefs.

Here's an analogy.

Jon Smith thinks that money should be free to take from a bank because it's just paper. Jon Smith doesn't have a bank account at the First Savings & Loan. Jon Smith legally owns a gun. Jon Smith walks into the First Savings & Loan with a gun and takes $125,000 from the teller. Since Jon Smith doesn't believe it should be a crime, did a crime actually occur?

Yes, because it's still a felony regardless of what Jon Smith believes.

Cars with swapped VINs are considered contraband under the law and are seized 99% of the time. They cannot be returned to the open market and are either used as law enforcement vehicles or scrapped. There is no replacement VINs issued by the federal government. And it is very rare that a state will issue a new identification number for the car and let it go back out - too many liability issues.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

"Restoration drive train" is a term Jerry MacNeish uses in his reports for restamped components. Goes hand in hand with JohnZ's "restoration graffiti" as applied to all the chalk marks on firewalls and inspection marks on every component under the hood on over restored cars.

And restoration bodies already exist, they are made by Dynacorn and since they never were a "car" you can transfer your VIN and tags over to them, as they are just a giant repair part, not a car. But thats a subject thats already been beaten to death.

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

OK Im not an attorney but I am now wondering what happens with one of those Camaro or mustang bodies if you change the whole body do they come with a new vin or ......??????

Re: Barrett Jackson Las Vegas
 

Same legal problems if you put another car's VIN on it. The correct and legal way to do it would be to apply for a state identification number (similar to a VIN but issued by the DMV). Most states have specific guidleines for the process which is usually used when people build kit cars or street rods.

By the way I forgot to mention something else on the donor body issue. If you use a "donor body" you are essentially tampering with that car's VIN by removing/destroying it. That is a whole other felony as well.