The Supercar Registry

The Supercar Registry (https://www.yenko.net/forum/index.php)

- Other Muscle (https://www.yenko.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=98)

- - New Ford GT (https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=85618)

Colin is definitely the "Prankster". I would hope that most everyone understood what was going on between both of you.

I was laughing pretty hard myself! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif

I think I got more "information" about the car than I figured I would!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

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I want to remind all of our readers I consider Colin one of the most knowledgeable car guys I have ever met and I meant no harm or offense to Colin this just all in fun and I probably should have inserted some LOLs in my post but was laughing so hard while writing it I forgot. It was not intended to be an attack on the juggernaut just his Ford.

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Understood,--When it gets down to the pistol duel --you fellas can square off with toy pop guns.... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif

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Colin one of the most knowledgeable car guys I have ever met

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Now I have to question whether you have been drinking Les https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif

I concur with Les on the Viper privateer issue. It is really hard to do alone. When they first came out in 92, I think I was the only one crazy enough to semi-actively race one. We had a lot of "back-door" support from Dodge as well as from Mopar Muscle Magazine. After two years of running the car we had quite a few wins in SCCA Solo 1, and even held a lap record for a year at Sebring. The car was a monster -you really had to keep a handle on the alignment as it was a very skittish car on the track. After two years of racing, the newer Vipers came out and we were essentially rendered obsolete as SCCA placed the new coupes with 50 more horsepower, in the same class as the old roadster. I ended up parking mine in 1997 and now it sits in my garage in its last race condition. In another 10 years it'll probably be worth something for its historical value as part of the Dodge Viper's early history.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...persebring.jpg

Steve really brings up a good point that is worth elaborating on in regard to the early days of the Viper. Today in 2006 it is almost becoming routine for manufacturers to develop these high HP supercars. It's almost like the flavor of the week nowadays.

But back in 1989 when the Viper was on the drawing board the last performance car to come out of Detroit was the 87 Buick GNX which many called the last of the muscle cars after the 73 Super Duty TAs were the last of the muscle cars.

The fact that Dodge built this car at all back in 91/92 was and is amazing. Dodge at the time was floundering and had no performance cars in their lineup at all. To build this car in 92 Dodge had to satisfy a million and one government regulations and cars like the Viper were not popular nor were they politically correct.

So Dodge decides with the help of a guy named Shelby to stuff a 488 cubic inch V10 motor into a car with no door handles or even windows let alone airbags. Having no idea if the car would even sell? Today it is easy to build a Ford GT and project that it will sell. But back in those days it was a terrific gamble by Dodge IMHO.

But not only did they build it. They built it by hand and still build it by hand all these years later. It still is America's only handbuilt muscle car that I am aware of? And lets not pretend it was anything but a muscle car when it was built. It had a 488 cubic inch big block connected to a 6 speed trans with no reverse lockout. It had rear brakes that were smaller than the ones on my shifter Kart up until 2002. Dodge openly admits when their customers started racing Vipers on road tracks as opposed to the drag strip they were flabergasted. They just didn't design it for road racing back in 92.

Lets also give credit to Dodge for sticking with the handbuilt Viper all these years and not making it a two year wonder like the Ford GT. Lets also acknowledge that Dodge created a dealer network of Viper dealers and required them to have a highly trained Viper tech on staff at all times and no other tech is supposed to work on Vipers other than the dealers Viper tech.

Ford has not followed through like that with the GT there is no Ford GT tech and in fact little or no tech training for the Ford GT. I watched in amazement as my friend in town who is the service manager at a Frod dealership tried to sort through the various recalls on the Ford GT. Ford sent no factory rep, sent no Ford GT tech, provided no tech manual and required the dealers to look online for instructions. Fortunatley the serice manager is a former Nascar racer so he could align the car and set the camber castor and toe as well as the bump steer in a proper manner. But other GT customers have not been so lucky and have complained that after the control arms were replaced the cars never handled the same again.

Dodge also over the years has encouraged it's Viper owners to track their cars and covered the problems under warranty.

Steve is an old Viper racer so he was there when Dodge listened to their customers at the Dodge Viper owner invitationals which by the way Dodge pays for every year or two and puts on a huge world class factory backed event for Viper owners and built a competiton coupe especially for the Viper racers to race in the Viper racing league.

This Comp coupe is a street Viper with the interior removed and a roll cage installed built and designed for Skip Thomas's Viper racing league. As a result Viper owners are justifiably some of the most loyal and passionate customers in the car world.

I simply get tired of reading about uninformed media types who bash and dismiss the Viper as a crudely built inferior car. The fact of the matter is the people who hand build Vipers are very proud of their cars and proud to be part of the Viper program.

When you consider that the Viper is the only handbuilt big block American high performance car manufactured today and that the factory shows it's appreciation for it's Viper customers by building a Comp Coupe and throwing a huge party every couple of years at the factory expense for it's Viper owners I think that Dodge and the car deserve more respect and should not be dismissed so easily when a two year wonder comes along like the Ford GT every few years. Really IMHO the Vipers only true American rival is the Z06 Vette.

My two cents.

I hate to agree with Les, but, I do on his latest post.

I purchased one of the first 92 Vipers in the Midwest. It was a big deal, and I remember all the letters and post cards from "Team Viper" and think I still have most of them. You felt like you were in an elite club of hoodlums with this bad ass Batmobile thing. I had to pick the car up in Chicago (only dealer that could get one), which worked out fine as I lived there part time then. So I get this Viper at 7pm, go to pick up my girlfriend that worked downtown, and I remember being like Moses parting the Red Sea driving through downtown Chicago in that thing. Nobody had ever seen one, or so it seemed. I also remember I thought the car was on fire from the smell of melting plastic, but, I didn't care. LOL. It was fun explaining why this expensive new car had fabric windows and no door handles, and how you had to unzip the side curtain to reach in and open the door. Her response was "My Jeep has that feature, and it was ten grand". Hard to argue with that I guess.

We got on I-94 to go to Milwaukee, and as soon as I had a clear path thru traffic, I decided to break the car in and let her rip. At about 120 MPH it sounded like the world had come to an end with this loud BOOOOM and pressure change, then it was windy as hell. I suddenly realized just what those velcro straps inside the side curtains had been for, and also came to the realization that somebody now had my side curtains on their hood. Oh well, I kept my foot in it. How much could replacement side curtains be, anyway?? LOL

It was a great car, although it had many faults. The dealer was not allowed to work on the car as I recall, they would have a "Viper Tech" come in and work on it. I think (from memory) this was the car that had bad head gaskets - it would intermittently get really hot and the oil got milky. They eventually exchanged the motor after doing the gaskets twice, I think it was decided the o-rings at the bottom of the cylinder liners had been disturbed and were leaking? Les and Steve, relax if I am wrong, that was a long time ago. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/laugh.gif

I did track the car and the brakes sucked.

I sold it and bought a 94 with A/C. Then, they announced the GTS (coupe), and I had to have one. What an awesome car, a Cobra Daytona Coupe almost! I got a 96, and it was so much better and more developed than the R/T, or at least that was my impression. I did blow the trans when the clutch pedal stuck to the floor as I was smoking the tires off in front of my shop during one of the famous parties I used to have there. Went for 2nd gear and no clutch. It would still upshift, but not downshift. I think there was a TSB for a clutch problem and that was the diagnosis. That car had engine problems and eventually Chrysler bought it back and gave me a 97 because the frame had defective welds and I wouldn't let them swap the chassis or fix it or whatever they proposed. I already had a NOM, replacement trans car and I wasn't about to let them re-body it (re-chassis it??) https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif

I also had a 98 GTS, and a Henessey car that I took on trade at one point. That car was a time bomb.

So, I think I have pretty good experience with the Viper. They were the FIRST great car out of Detroit in many years. Chrysler did take a huge risk and really did bring a revolutionary car to market. The dealer and customer support seemed great, if you had a Viper and it went in with a problem, it was a priority job and they got it fixed. I remember that the sent a new trans UPS Red Label from Detroit to Milwaukee. That had to be $700 in shipping?
I know for a fact the Ford guys have no idea at the dealer level how to fix the GT. My dealer said they would have to get a service manual to do my first oil change, and that they didn't have one yet!

Again, the Viper was/is an impressive effort and I would never take anything away from them. However, as a street car, I have owned them and I have driven the new Coupe (2005), and PERSONALLY, I think the Ford GT is a more refined car and the dynamics of a mid engined car with the advanced suspension and good balance Ford put in the car make it a better car for track-day and fast road driving than a comparable stock new Viper coupe. Plus, although hotly debated here, the benefit of having a supercharged motor is the ability to do MINOR bolt on stuff to raise the boost level and make a lot more power without opening the motor. Plus, Ford Racing is making some great bolt-on stuff already with more in the works. They are even selling race tires and lightweight wheels, transaxle oil coolers, nasty GT-40 style headers that are the "bundle of snakes" style and exit straight out the rear of the car, etc. It is a cool car and although expensive, also a gutsy move at a time when all of the big three are simply hemmoraging money. It(and cars like it) are a good shot in the arm and morale booster for a company like Ford. Now, because they are a Ford and an entirely hand built car that was rushed to market, YES, they will have problems and the first 500 cars or so had bad control arms and other faults. Hey, 4 years into the Viper production I had a car recalled for FRAME defects. Nobody is perfect. For a guy like me that loves Cobras and has lusted after a real GT-40 for years and will probably never own one, this is a pretty good compromise. Plus, it can be a daily driver and used for road trips, etc. That is, if you have no luggage. It also is satisfying to look at a design so pure and true to the original GT-40 on which it is based and be proud that Ford actually had the balls to build it and make it work. For the money, I don't think anybody can say it is a lot of car and Ford could have easily sold them for $100k more and not been criticized. Hell, if they only made 500 of them think of how people would be fighting over them !

Like Les, this is just my .02 worth.

Colin

I agree with both Les and Colin in their agreeing with me. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif There were a lot of bugs with the early cars, including a bunch of piston ring sealing problems that resulted in the problem engines being crated up and sent back to Dodge (You actually had to specify if you wanted your original engine back or not: pretty responsive to future collectibility issues, I think). It was neat to have your own Viper Tech at the dealership. My guy would lend me all their tools and let me use them on my own.

I think we got a car that might have gotten a little extra "attention" along the line since they knew we were going to play with it for the Magazine. It has about 7900 (Sunday only) miles on it now. And I do have to say that long hood makes an excellent workbench, as it has been parked for so long in the center of my garage.

Here's the write up on the car from the members rides: https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/show.../page/1#161420

Whenever Colin agree's with me I get VERY nervous and it also leaves me with no one to argue with. LOL LOL

But Colin while you are in the middle of your Ford GT groovy love fest Midwest tour lets not forget a couple of very important Ford GT facts.

1. It is not really a Ford? Ford does not build this car. Ford originally planned on having their elite SVT unit build the car but fell in love with Steve Saleen's S7 or whatever it's called and contracted with him to build the car. Only Ford didn't do their homework because Steve Saleen didn't actually build the Saleen S7 he contracted it out to a company in England who build it for him. So Ford thought they were going to get Saleen S7 quality (which stinks anyway so what were they thinking? ) but instead got Saleen quality which turned out to be such a terrible nightmare that Saleen fired all his top guys at the Saleen/Ford GT factory after the first year. Ford was so angry with Saleen over the production problems they told him to not bother bidding on any future Ford projects for a while.

In any event the Saleen GT errr I mean Ford GT sorry is built at the Saleen facilty by Saleen employee's. Well that's not exactly correct either is it my juggernaut friend? Because Ford rather than have their SVT unit build the Saleen GT engine dammit I mean the Ford GT engine decided to have Jack Roush build the GT engines for them and send the engines over to the Saleen factory and install them in the Saleen built body and chassis. Which is not a bad idea since Roush certainly knows how to build a fine engine I am sure we would all agree. But unfortunately for Ford they again didn't do their homework and learned later that Roush Inc. subbed the job out to one of his many varied subsidiary companies who eventually installed the wrong rear main seals and created a toxic waste issue for all the oil which leaked out of the early 2005 engines.

However the story didn't end with Roush Inc. sending over the engines to Saleen inc. for installation in the Saleen/Ford GT. Ford employees and especially SVT were not happy at all about the saleen GT being called a Ford GT when no Ford employees were actually involved in the build process so the employee's union had to file a grievance against Ford about putting a Ford Badge on what is essentially a Saleen.

To avoid any further bad press Ford relented and agreed to allow the Roush Inc. engines to be sent to a Ford factory where the Roush built engine would be reunited with the Saleen built body and chassis and installed into a car called the Ford GT.

In my PERSONAL opinion the Saleen/Ford GT is one of the best looking cars ever built. But the fact that Ford doesn't build it in house is a slap in the face to Ford employee's. IMHO the build process resembles more a kit car than anything else?

The fact that people compare the Ford GT to a Z06 Vette and Viper who do build their own cars in house is a slap in the face IMHO to the employee's of Dodge and Chevy who take pride in building their own cars.

Colin , I consider you a friend and you are also the only muscle car dealer in the world I trust to buy cars from. I implore you not to track your Saleen/Ford GT you are a very experienced and successful race driver and will push the car on a track to it's limits. This car is not very well sorted out and in fact very few prototypes were built and tested and and even fewer production GTs were tested(I think three) which is how the control arm problem slipped past and the car does not have years of proven durability on any track you would in essence be the guinea pig? This is a 200MPH car with no track history and I for one would not bet my life on this car with this convoluted build history. My two cents.