Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

I agree Erik......

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

But the cowl section and that vin used to be a Camaro convert didn't it ? It looks like a good cowl section so should it just be thrown away ? If you had another convert that was hit hard in the front and this cowl section would fix it which vin should you use ? If you use the vin from the hit car then you have the wrong hidden vins.

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

You're right Charley, the cowl was in good shape...and it used to be a Camaro convertible, but now it's simpy the means for someone to recreate a new '69 Camaro using a repro body shell and titling it as a legit '69 with the original VIN.

IMO, whenever a car is split through the rockers and essentially cut down to nothing but a cowl (and having it's VIN tag drilled out and reinstalled) should be issued a reconstructed title. I doubt this is the case with the cowl for sale at Carlisle since it wouldn't have much value if it was an R title. The VIN was obviously being held for disclosure.

I don't argue that the cowl is the heart of the car, and I'm a preservationist too, I'd like to see all '69 Camaros properly restored, but to take a '69 Fisher cowl like that and then create the other 80% of the car out of modern reproduction overseas sheetmetal, and call it a legit '69 with "hidden VINs" is clearly stepping into a gray area.

I think these new cars should be issued street rod type titles to separate them from real GM 69s. I also think cars that are as far gone as that cowl was at Carlisle, need very special consideration before warranting a rescue. Remember, they made over 200,000 Camaros in '69...do you really need to by a new one and stitch it to an old cowl? Who are you fooling? What are you restoring, a '69 Camaro cowl? Even if the car does have some significance, in example the sellers of the new repro 69 bodies at Carlisle metioned to me that someone had recently purchased one to rebody a 69 Z11 Pace Car that had literally "broken in half" during transport. Sure, it's nice to rescue a Pace Car that far gone, but is that Pace Car's cowl on a 2005 Taiwan made body a "restored" '69 Pace Car? Not to me it isn't. If it was a festival car you would have a dash frame and firewall that went around the track in 69, and 80% of a car that didn't even exist until 2005. That's a restored '69? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

IMO... Years ago engine restamping was something that the Corvette guys did. Now finding a dated block and restamping it is sadly commonplace. If fact so common that there are data portals collecting Broach marking photos from original blocks to help pick out the fakes.

The rebody thing with a repro body is not even nearly that sharp yet. As you may recall Fisher body dated many parts of the body sheet metal as it was stamped. The new bodies do not have these dates, so picking out a fake body on a show car would not be hard at all. On a driver quality car where the main issue is how solid/drivable the car is I am not sure if the use of a new body is really that big of a deal, as long as disclosure is made. Chances are if the buyer is paying driver money he should know what he is getting.

If I am buying Big $$ Muscle, and there is lots of undercoating, you can bet I am under it with a heat gun looking for the fisher date codes in several places-prior to making the buy.

Phil

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

So is any 69 Camaro that has Taiwan 1/4's and fenders hung on it a gray area ? What if the owner of that cowl had replaced everything else from the cowl back in a effort to save his car but could only get Tiawan parts. He welds them all together and he has a gray area car ? If he welds GM parts is it not a gray area car ?

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

I guess it all has to do with the car's history...I look at it as a little bit of it is lost as original components are swapped out. When all you've got is a cowl and predominantly repro parts then yes I think it's a gray area car. I guess if it was a Supercar then the cowl itself would posess enough life to warrant a rebody with new tin, but it most definitely would be a gray area car, as most of that Supercar body is MIA. didn't mean to start a big debate, I just think these scratch built new '69 Camaros with a vintage cowl and vintage VIN are an interesting new beast that will soon be entering the marketplace. Let's hope they get it welded on square. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

I think it is a good debate. My understanding is the new body is 30something panels that have to be welded together at shops around the country. This is not body assembled at a factory in Tiawan but a bunch of Tiawan pieces welded together here in a jig. So you send this cowl section to the shop with the jig and tell them to repair your car. They use the Tiawan panels and repair your car. Seems OK to me. Yes it is not a mint orig but it is still not just a tag swap. It is much better than just swapping tags.

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

[ QUOTE ]
So you send this cowl section to the shop with the jig and tell them to repair your car.

[/ QUOTE ]

So are we calling a cowl section a car now ??? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

Legally the cowl section with the partial VIN and the VIN tag in the dash would be a legal car that can be titled. If that's what it takes to save a car, welding on lots of new body pieces, it's still the same car as it was originally. What's the difference in replacing 1 piece of metal vs replacing half the car? But it comes down to what can you legally call a 69 Camaro. If you have the original cowl, and VIN's and title, it's a 69 Camaro. Personally, I would prefer to keep the body shell which goes from the firewall back to the tailpanel and call that an actual car. If it needs quarters, trunk floor, tailpanel then fine, replace them. But this car is just a cowl panel and I don't see it as a car. It will eventually be decided in the courts at some point in time. I've seen a couple of backhalved musclecars and it really makes you think what you are really buying.

Re: GM Nationals in Carlisle 6/24 - 6/26
 

My first real Z28 had been cut behind the drivers seat and had another half attached with sheet metal screws...It was a real jewel.