Re: Authenticating A COPO
 

Well.....is it a yellow L89?

Re: Authenticating A COPO
 

Who found the car and who restored it can be very important components to the equation. There are some who have had no issue, restamping VINs and codes into various parts as well as affixing reproduced VIN and trim tags to various vehicles which they have been involved with, in order to fool or defraud someone down the road.

There can be an established reputation, good or bad.

I am going to disagree with William on this issue. There are occasions where based on the evidence presented that a vehicle can be verified beyond a reasonable doubt as authentic, even without it's original engine or any factory/dealer paperwork.

As an example, take the Yellow/Yellow 1969 Z28 that we are currently restoring.

It does not have the original engine and it has no factory paperwork, However, it is beyond a reasonable doubt a real Yellow/Yellow Z28.

This car holds a Certificate of authenticity from our Company as well as other certificates of authenticity.

I will agree with William that once a Vehicle has been completely restored that the task of verifying becomes much more difficult to accomplish if even at all possible.

I have seen individuals verify/certify cars with little to no history with no factory paperwork and absolutely not one original drive train component.

Re: Authenticating A COPO
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have seen individuals verify/certify cars with little to no history with no factory paperwork and absolutely not one original drive train component. </div></div>

So have I. Doesn't always work out so well.

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/t...mage001-13.png

Re: Authenticating A COPO
 

I am wondering why you would expect and want more from GM vintage services. If the original build sheet that came with the car when new cannot be had, the GM docs that are available today is as good as it gets. It sounds like you are worried the vin # for this car has been circulated and you suspect a car has been created from the available paperwork. If thats the case,then for my money anyways,I would seek Jerrys help to try and determine exactly what the car is. Go through the process and don't take any shortcuts. If its important do it right.

Re: Authenticating A COPO
 

Here is a JM Certified COPO

Re: Authenticating A COPO
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Here is a JM Certified COPO </div></div>

Incomplete owner history.
No factory or dealer paperwork.
Not one original drivetrain component.
Certified after complete and extensive restoration.

Re: Authenticating A COPO
 

Hope that works out for him.

Re: Authenticating A COPO
 

William,

You certainly have quite a bit of knowledge about first generation Camaros and have been dealing with them for quite some time and I appreciate and respect your knowledge, contributions as well as what you have done and continue to do with CRG.

However, it seems to me that you are straddling both sides of the fence on this issue.

You are stating on one hand that you can't verify a COPO w/o factory/dealer paperwork and/or an original engine, then on the other you support and endorse an individual for hire who does certify COPOs without your requisite parameters,and who does so on a fairly regular basis?

Ed Cuneen has been out of the mix for a long time.

Re: Authenticating A COPO
 

I'm not on any fence. Jerry and I have been friends for some time and he is free to do as he pleases. We agree to disagree on some of the stuff he does. I know I talked him out of one &quot;COPO&quot; certification years ago. The car had nothing more than a BE axle dated several weeks AFTER the car was built and evidence of a ZL2 hood. 25 years ago I added ZL2, N33, N34 and a few other options to a '69 Z/28. I watched that &quot;all original car&quot; sell at R-S last January. I laughed as people checked to see if it had a flat-bottom air cleaner. Of course it did.

In my 15 years at CPX some of our customers built clones. One of them, a black '69 SS-RS L78 convert, started life as an early-production Le Mans blue SS350. The current owner was quite disappointed to hear the real story. Every part in that car is date-code correct.

What I can say is this: given a reasonable budget and some time a knowledgeable shop could build whatever you want [exc ZL1] and no one will be able to prove it isn't real.

Therein lies the peril in &quot;certifying&quot; undocumentable cars.

Re: Authenticating A COPO
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: William</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I can say is this: given a reasonable budget and some time a knowledgeable shop could build whatever you want [exc ZL1] and no one will be able to prove it isn't real.

Therein lies the peril in &quot;certifying&quot; undocumentable cars.
</div></div>

Prove it isn't real? A restored car is fake unless proven otherwise and it 's been proven that a JM Cert is no proof it's the real deal.