Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

The problem is lack of due diligence... the purchaser wants the car and lets emotions or greed get in the way of a sound decision.
Whatcha wanna bet he'll never make the same mistake again?

Seems to me that other than some hassle and not getting the car he wanted at a below market number he is not out very much (well besides opportunity costs if he is in fact a dealer).

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Is everybody talking about the silver COPO Camaro with blue interior that sits a little low?
Mark Sheppard

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

I find it very interesting how much bickering, whining, pissing and moaning has now started to occur since the market for American ‘musclecars’ has worked through this inevitable correction.

Look, a couple of years ago, this sector of the collector car marketplace was like a really good “Frat” party. Everybody was getting drunk and laid… For those of us enthusiasts who have been long time collectors (since before the last party in the late 80’s) watching while cars that used to be parked behind barns to rot doubled and tripled in value was entertaining at times, others frustrating.

During this “party period” we saw cars which we had always wanted and had finally aspired to be able to afford have values rise so exponentially that many complained that collectable musclecars had gotten out of reach of ‘real’ enthusiasts.

Hey, that’s life. This value escalation resulted in many succumbing to the lowest common denominator: Greed. Lets be really honest with ourselves as collectors and realize these are 40+ year old cars. When they were new, they were never intended to last this long. They should have been dust by now… Not only were they built by union minorities following 6 pack lunches and a joint; we drove the living piss out of them! Hell, blown drivetrain components on the way home from the dealership was a common occurrence. Then, gas prices went sky high and nobody cared about these ‘guzzlers’ and the fact that we are still driving an automobile with a V8 (or even more) today was once thought to be insane.

So what does all this mean? Mostly it translates to a very rude awakening now that we have to clean up the empty beer bottles and try to find our wadded up shorts. When things were “going nuts” few cared to investigate numbers, castings, stampings, etc. Some got so caught up in the “moment” that they had no idea about things like “re-stamps” – “re-bodies” etc. or the very subtle but very important difference between words like: “numbers matching” vs “original numbers matching” vs “documented original numbers matching”. All three mean very different things to those of us who know better.

So here we are today. In a correcting marketplace, with old cars that were not built all that great in the first place, run hard and put away wet when new, then neglected, then ‘re-discovered’ as values rose to the level that enticed many to fall victim to the “dark side” and start doing all kinds of unscrupulous activities.

Hey! Wake up! Those that are lost in some idealistic haze that the world is a wonderful place and everyone loves each other need to puff, puff, pass and then shut the hell up! The realities are that these old cars have endured many years of “lord only knows what” – bought, sold, traded, restored, etc. by “lord only knows who” and to think that ‘bad people – bad cars and bad things” do not happen is just simply naive.

Here is the bottom line. THE SOLE RESPONSIBILITY TO DETERMINE THE QUALITY, CONDITION, ‘CORRECTNESS’, HISTORY, OR ANYTHING ELSE ABOUT A POTENTIAL AUTOMOBILE PURCHSE BELONGS 100% WITH THE BUYER.

Period.

To expect, that AFTER you buy, sell or trade in these cars someone else is responsible for your ignorance is just stupid. Seeking to place blame anywhere else, other than on yourself following a failure to clearly understand the obligations on BOTH sides of buying and selling is just lame. The simple fact is: No one is responsible for you – but you! Please do me the courtesy of not confusing me with someone other than just a fellow enthusiast that loves these cars and the camaraderie of the people who collect them. I am NOT the Mommy… I don’t wipe up after some baby dirties their diapers, I don’t burp, pat or wipe. Please, for the love of this hobby, stop all the whining. It is embarrassing…

Sound more like my syntax?

Drew

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

I DO THINK THE SELLER OF THE CAMARO DID NOT KNOW ABOUT THE RE-BODY, THIS CAMARO HAS BEEN SOLD LIKE THIS FOR SOME TIME NOW AND I AM THE ONLY ONE THAT PHYSICALLY DISCOVER THE PROBLEM AND WITH IN 24 HOURS,I AM SURE THA ALL CLASSIC CAR AUCTIONS CAN SPEND THE EXTRA MONEY AND HAVE A PRO LOOK @ ALL THE CARS AND INVESTIGATE THE ONES THAT LOOK FISHY, BECAUSE I CAN... I GUESS IF THE AUCTIONS OR COLLECTORS PAY ME I FOUND A NEW JOB.......PETE LIMA

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Pete, first of all, how about taking the "caps lock" off!

Second, as others have said, with 100s of cars going though their auction, no way could they inspect even a small portion of the cars. And if they tried, how hard, and costly, would it be to find a real expert for every make and model crossing the block?

If the seller did not know it was a re-body, makes matters even harder for the auction houses to police things.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

manhein auctions sells around 10,000 to 15,000 cars a day and they check all of them.......with the money a classic car auction makes they should have a pro like they have..............this is for you (((DREW!)) I WANT MY CHECK BACK!!

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Caveat emptor https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif - Just ask Greg Brady!! Ones man’s expert is another man’s fool. Anyone can tell you what you want to hear for a price. We attorneys have been doing this since the beginning of time. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
Caveat emptor https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif - Just ask Greg Brady!!

[/ QUOTE ]

HA! That black '56 Chevy convert was cool!

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Isn't it a shame how 99% of the lawyers give the whole profession a bad name.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
manhein auctions sells around 10,000 to 15,000 cars a day and they check all of them.......

[/ QUOTE ]


Yeah..they check and make sure they are able to roll.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

I must be in that other one percent!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here is the bottom line. THE SOLE RESPONSIBILITY TO DETERMINE THE QUALITY, CONDITION, ‘CORRECTNESS’, HISTORY, OR ANYTHING ELSE ABOUT A POTENTIAL AUTOMOBILE PURCHSE BELONGS 100% WITH THE BUYER.

Period.

To expect, that AFTER you buy, sell or trade in these cars someone else is responsible for your ignorance is just stupid. Seeking to place blame anywhere else, other than on yourself following a failure to clearly understand the obligations on BOTH sides of buying and selling is just lame. The simple fact is: No one is responsible for you – but you! Please do me the courtesy of not confusing me with someone other than just a fellow enthusiast that loves these cars and the camaraderie of the people who collect them. I am NOT the Mommy… I don’t wipe up after some baby dirties their diapers, I don’t burp, pat or wipe. Please, for the love of this hobby, stop all the whining. It is embarrassing…

Sound more like my syntax?

Drew

[/ QUOTE ]

Hummm... exactly why I will never buy a car at auction. It is not cheap to run a car through an auction and the auction company wants to take ZERO yes ZERO responsibility for what they are offering. All the profit with none of the accountability. It is embarassing.... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]

Hummm... exactly why I will never buy a car at auction. It is not cheap to run a car through an auction and the auction company wants to take ZERO yes ZERO responsibility for what they are offering. All the profit with none of the accountability. It is embarassing.... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It is true that the majority of the responsibility belongs with the buyer, but this statement is right on the money (pun intended) IMO.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Reading Drew's response in his own words has opened my eyes.
Mark Sheppard

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

WOW, I'm blown away with this:
[ QUOTE ]
So here we are today. In a correcting marketplace, with old cars that were not built all that great in the first place, run hard and put away wet when new, then neglected, then ‘re-discovered’ as values rose to the level that enticed many to fall victim to the “dark side” and start doing all kinds of unscrupulous activities.

[/ QUOTE ]
How does one "fall victim" to the dark side?

and thanks for sharing this:

[ QUOTE ]
Hey! Wake up! Those that are lost in some idealistic haze that the world is a wonderful place and everyone loves each other need to puff, puff, pass and then shut the hell up! The realities are that these old cars have endured many years of “lord only knows what” – bought, sold, traded, restored, etc. by “lord only knows who” and to think that ‘bad people – bad cars and bad things” do not happen is just simply naive.


[/ QUOTE ]
We all know that where there is BIG money that fraud surely follows. That is a no brainer. So does that make it O.K.? STAND UP FOR WHAT IS RIGHT. The car in this thread had it's VIN swapped, and that is illegal. No one is whining that it's not numbers matching or has forged documents. THE VIN WAS CHANGED AND TO SAY THE BUYER HAS THE RESPONSIBILITY TO FIND THIS OUT BEFORE HE BOUGHT THE CAR IS IRRESPONSIBLE.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

I totally agree with Drew. I don’t look to the auction house to protect me from myself. I am 100% responsible for the purchases I make, good and bad. Who spends COPO money for a car from a perfect stranger without checking the hidden vin……not me. That’s why I very seldom buy cars at live auctions. It’s just not a venue that lends itself to any serious amount of inspection. If I bid I bid with that matter factored in. You can learn more about a car on eBay than you can at alive auction. I’ve always kind of considered auctions a place to sell a car you don’t want to be highly scrutinized. I know that’s not always the case, but it is true.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

The problem is cars unlike real estate and other things dont have a 3 day right of recision, you cant tie one up for 2 months with a small deposit while you look for financing,inspect the house, do title searches, look for a better deal,or go on line and look for the SYC real estate site and ask questions about why the title says"telephone company easement". Car buying is almost always a spur of the moment thing that needs quick response and decision making[ebay auction, car at a show,or live car auction],potential buyers get the feeling of people looking over thier shoulder ready to take a risk which leads to alot of impulse and bad decision buying because people are afraid of "losing out" on a deal.If you get wound up in the frenzy ,yes you run the risk of making a bad choice. A perfect example was a local auction recently that was listed here for a supposed 67 ss chevelle out of an estate. The car had no title,was stuffed tight in a trailer and they wouldnt roll the car out,nothing matching,came with a "zl1" motor that was actually a tall deck painted silver,it was in a trailer where the doors couldnt be opened[who knows if a vin tag was even on the door jamb,much less an SS specific vin tag] yet it brought about 27K for a car needing resto.It was like a pirhanna feeding frenzy with people climbing on the car to look at it. When the doors are finally opened and there is no vin or a malibu vin,[or for that matter the car was a rebody] why should anyone give this bidder his money back????

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

I agree with Drew as well... If I get suckered on a deal it is my fault...
The point is if you don't have the expertise to know definatively what you are looking at or can not afford to lose the money you are spending then you have no business buying whatever it is you are buying whether it be a car, a house, or a piece of art.
I have lost out on a few REAL cars by taking my time to research them, however I have saved myself tens of thousands of dollars by flushing out some cobbed together crap as well.
I work hard for my money and I am not going to be pressured into buying any crap...
I also try my best to keep emotion out of it... falling in love with tangible items (hell with a woman for that matter) rarely brings out the most sane decisons.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Bottom line I guess is to assume that every car at an auction is crap unless otherwise shown not to be... instead of vise versa!

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

A lot of what Drew said is correct, bidders need to do their homework or run the risk of a bad deal. However, that has got to be one of the most unprofessional responses I've ever read from someone in such a position.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of what Drew said is correct, bidders need to do their homework or run the risk of a bad deal. However, that has got to be one of the most unprofessional responses I've ever read from someone in such a position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto!

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

The frat party analogy brought back some good memories from 20+ years ago. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

I guess the lawyers did not compose that response.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Ditto x 2

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

x 3

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

His responses to the quick bowtie's scenario a couple months ago were irritating. His latest response is just plain ignorant.

Ditto x3 https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
I guess the lawyers did not compose that response.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you don't need lawyers for everything https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

For good or for bad...Drew just tells it like he sees it https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[[ QUOTE ]
His responses to the quick bowtie's scenario a couple months ago were irritating. His latest response is just plain ignorant.

Ditto x3 https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly!.

Personal opinion here but most of Drew's comments are nothing new to many reading these postings and the biggest education provided may just be the crystal clear confirmation which auction house blatantly doesn't give a sh!+ who patronizes their business by providing the quality cars or real money necessary to help keep things rolling?.
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif

These comments are especially surprising considering how you'd expect auction houses in a troubled market would need and want to retain or attract as many of the real deal guy's cars and money more than ever before!.
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif

~ Pete

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

if Drew really expects the buyer to eat the deal, he damm well better post every single VIN # 30 days ahead of time so us peasants have adequate time to determine if what he offer's the public for sale isn't a dead dove come hammer time.
Jim Haas

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

As for the auction companies verifying the cars they are selling, let me draw your attention to the info regarding this 71 W30 convert sold at the January auction. The info makes perposterous claims about the car having a left over 70 W30 engine.
As I have been accumulating info on these W30 cars for 25 years and am well familiar with their production,I emailed R&S about the misinformation on this car. My correspondence was well before the auction. I did not get a response, nor did the wording change. the car sold for about what a #2 plain 442 would fetch with some desireable options added. The presentaion is cleaverly worded with "probably" and "likely". What the seller is relying on is the fact that both 1970 and 1971 W30 engines were coded "TT",by way of a sticker on the oil filler tube. Furtermore the "TT" code only applies to non A/C cars.
Fortunately this car did not sell as a bonafide W30, however I was disappointed that R&S did not have the seller modify his wording.
If I were purchasing a rare car at an auction I would need lats of time to ensure I was buying what was being claimed.

http://www.russoandsteele.com/collec...ible/7442.html

Paul

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Indeed, Mr. “Buizillia” has a good point. Posting the VIN numbers on our website ahead of time would greatly assist in potential buyers to properly engage their due diligence and research. Although we have initiated this practice of providing VIN’s in our Monterey and Florida Catalogs, posting them on the website will be something I will look into and will work to initiate this feature as soon as possible.

Mr. Xplantdad is also correct in his astute assessment…something that YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY, paceme and PeteLeathersac seem to miss:

I have spent a lot of time in this hobby in several high profile positions. My candor and honesty have, many times been misunderstood by my fellow enthusiasts but no one can ever say that I did not “tell it like I see it” or that I have ever lied to anyone. Sometimes people don’t like what I have to say or how I say it… I understand that and have made my peace with it.

It always amazes me how people try to find the “gray” area of things, particularly when the hardest one to be mad it is yourself. I have spoken honestly and candidly for many years about things that no one else does. I state the facts as I see them and render my opinions from my perspective. I don’t hide behind pseudo login names or hide behind the anonymity of the Internet. If you notice, I sign in with my name and sign my name to every post.

You may agree with some of my opinions, you may not. None of these opinions will ever compromise the facts. The facts of responsibility and obligations. Responsibilities and obligations we have by contract. Ones we have as fellow enthusiasts. The ones we have as human beings to each other. Or the facts that the idealisms under which we buy and sell these old cars are great until we encounter the brutal realities like re-bodies, re-stamps, forgeries, blah, blah, blah…

The facts are simple and trying to squeeze the “gray” area out of situations is the reason we have lawyers. In the many years I have been producing collector car auctions (and the many more before that with which I participated in them) there is not a story I have not heard. Most times, things get “twisted up” because some one failed to fulfill their duty. Failed to accurately disclose some relevant issue about a car. Failed to properly research the history, numbers, or documentation. Failed to clearly understand the obligations to which they were bound entering into a transaction. Failed to check the numbers. Failed to read and understand a description clearly. Maybe not for what it said, but sometimes more importantly what it DIDN’T say. But most often it is the result of someone NOT doing something THEY should have and THEN trying to blame some one else for it afterwards.

In the end, I produce the highest caliber of auction event I can possibly conceive. I have a great staff that work to provide the best experience and service I can imagine. I do this because I really enjoy the hobby and the people attached to these cars. I have been fortunate enough to have a nice collection that I can enjoy the camaraderie of fellow enthusiasts through racing, shows, rallies, etc. I most certainly do not do this because I HAVE to… This changes things a bit I think. I believe it allows me the luxury of being more candid with what I say and in many ways infinitely more honest. I am not out to please everyone. That is impossible. I am not everyone’s ‘best friend’ nor am I anyone’s “Mommy” or some “Cop” of the hobby. Some folks like me – some don’t. And hey, that’s ok…

As Xplantdad says: “For good or bad… Drew just tells it like he sees it” – to me that equals one thing: Integrity.

I will talk to anyone, anytime, anywhere. I’m not hard to find. [email protected] lands directly on my desk. Sometimes in my position I have to make some tough calls. Most of the time it is really lots of fun. And isn’t that what it’s really all about? Fun is the common denominator that binds us all. No one is living and dying over these old cars. No starving children in third world countries are being fed. Me, Craig, Rob, David, Dana, all the rest and every old car on the plant could instantly vanish tomorrow and no one would even blink.

Drew Alcazar

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

That's a much better response, thanks for the additional insight.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
In the end, I produce the highest caliber of auction event I can possibly conceive.

[/ QUOTE ] Drew, if that's the case, and I *want* to believe it is, you need to make Peter whole, and deal with the seller on those questionable merits of authenticity, up to and including prosecution if you can prove the seller knew. Judging by the written responses here from credible individuals, several other people obviously factually knew the car was a fraud, but Peter didn't know. So, at this point, i'm not buying one iota that this seller, and perhaps your team, didn't know.

JH

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Drew, my hat's off to you. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif
There have been similar threads about Barret Jackson, and if Craig ever logged in here to defend himself or his auction house, the planet might well be adversly effected.
The point about "Caveat Emptor", or let the buyer beware, has been beaten to death. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif All you do is provide a service for buyers and sellers to do business, with a fee agreed to by both parties. Nobody is held at gunpoint to either bring their car to auction, or bid on that car.
This forum is open to opinions, and the often cover the full spectrum from wise and knowing to WTF. Thank you for your candor, and your willingness to get involved when you could just as easily hide from any controversy. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif
Andy Meyers
JAFO

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
Drew,........This forum is open to opinions, and the often cover the full spectrum from wise and knowing to WTF. Thank you for your candor, and your willingness to get involved when you could just as easily hide from any controversy.


[/ QUOTE ]

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

"Not only were they built by union minorities following 6 pack lunches and a joint"

Although I agree the buyer has 100% of the responsibility and to me (and I have no cars) an auction seems like a terrible place to buy a car, the quote above is telling.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Mr. Buizilla,

If I failed earlier to be more clear I apologize. Here is the current disposition on this particular Camaro.

The buyer took delivery of the vehicle from our auction site in Florida. We collateralized him as a bidder, as we do everyone and he wrote us a check for his purchase, checked out with the car and we awaited an electronic wire transfer on Monday, the next business day following the auction.

The buyer contacted us alleging that he felt the car was a “re-body – chop job” and indicated he had placed a “Stop Payment” on his check and would not be funding the purchase.

At this point the car was in Miami and we sent Reliable Carriers to pick the car up. Typically, in these situations, we act as essentially an “escrow” agent to secure the title, car and funds pending a thorough investigation as to the validity of any allegations.

In this case, with no money (a worthless piece of paper = a NSF check) and a car that had been partially dismantled sitting in Miami we took the best course of action we knew how. We secured the car and re-delivered the car to the seller.

Let me be abundantly clear on the facts:

1) The buyer never funded the transaction – so there is no money to “refund”.
2) The seller bought the car through the Barrett-Jackson in January 2007. He was the first buyer to “pay up” for this car and this is further evidence that he absolutely did NOT know the vehicle’s history
3) The seller is a well know enthusiast who has a large company and also many, many cars, most well over the 6 figure range. To think that he would compromise his good standing in the hobby for this single Camaro is well beyond my imagination. It is my very strong opinion that this seller was not maliciously involved in any wrong doing in any way WHAT SO EVER.
4) An investigation is underway to determine the status of allegations that this vehicle is a “re-body”. Experts infinitely more knowledgeable than I will have to accurately determine if indeed it is a re-body entirely or possibly just a badly damaged vehicle that was repaired.

The seller received a car back that was partially dismantled, and has now been at the mercy of many unsubstantiated allegations, reckless comments, and loose conjecture. Can you imagine how he feels?

Whether or not you “buy” this explanation and factual outline is immaterial and irrelevant.

How would you like it if some one started this kind of messages about YOUR car? No pictures, no facts, no expert testimony from well respected authorities in the hobby, just took your car off an auction site, dismantled it, and then posted this crap…

I said it before and now again: PLEASE, do the owner of this vehicle the courtesy of investigating the history of this particular car prior to being crucified in this (or any other) anonymous public forum.

One thing I DO know is that ANY fellow enthusiasts deserves at LEAST that!

Drew Alcazar

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

This is the same car I had advertised on this site !! We released the car to someone on this site, we found out it was possibly a re-bodied and sold it for a much lower price. Funny thing is, we saw it back out there with a WHOPPER price tag.
I won't rep any REBODY cars and neither did my Seller !!!
We knew this car would resurface with a clean story !!!!!
No better of a place to hide such cars but at an Auction https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif Buyer Beware !!

I don't blame the Auction houses for these mishaps..

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Is this the same Silver and Blue Automatic COPO that was at the Camaro Nats June 07?

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Drew, I understand your points, and they are clear. Are you saying he gave you an NSF check? or it was a stop payment check? big difference... how was he to know it wasn't a re-body if he didn't remove any panels to confirm a rumor?? I would have done the same thing looking for rumor proof. can't do that in the auction hall either... while I agree it IS buyer beware in most instances, it should also be seller beware in this instance. RichP has just stated, as others have, that the car wasn't legit, yet it appears again as legit. Pete thought it was legit. What would happen if I asked Pete as a broker to buy this car for me and this happened?? Clearly, people along the way knew this, your client very well may not have, but a bunch sure did...

did I understand you to just write that BJ sold this car as legit as well?? should be real easy to track it from RichP's honest client clean on to BJ if that's the case..

and, I do compliment your upstanding willingness to clear the air.

JH