Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Try checking the "Defnitions" section of this one. I think the answers to the "hard questions" we are faced with are really pretty cut and dried in the eyes of the law. Seems as though there would be times when the title should reflect large amounts of restoration?
http://www.odot.state.or.us/forms/dmv/6511.pdf

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Ahh....

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

It also appears that the new body shells would be somewhat questionable by the Oregon definitions because of the uni-body portion of the definitions? Am I reading that correctly?

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

I think that CamaroJoe absolutely nailed this one. We have been down this road on Steve's Nova site when that sun yellow deuce was on EBaY, and pretty much reached the same conclusion. We used Schoneye's original 'owner' face on Pam Anderson's body as an eg - it was more interesting than car 1 vs. car 2, or yenko A vs. yenko B https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

I'm working on a feature car story that will explain this topic in real world terms https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Remember ZL-1 #23 or #18? Do not recall which one, That was clipped from the toeboards back. The car was a tubbed race car. Did that car get certified? It was a real car. Was it certified before or after the rear clip? My point is, do tubbed racecars get certified? Or just factory stock bodied cars? Copo connection should not be held liable for what happens to a cars body after it is certified. And i beleive there is a discloser already to protect him from suits. Roger

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

So at the end of the day...all we can ever really know is the VIN is a true Supercar...probably no way to discover a well done rebody without sandblasting the whole damn car. There are folks who would never buy a rebody and there are those who could care less and at least a remnant of a true Supercar still exists instead of going to it's grave. If you are looking for a car and do not want to buy a rebody there ought to be a way to know the history of a car...maybe it's time for Ed or whoever to list the associated known history of a given car like the Shelby Registry does.Shelby even lists when a rebody was done if known..if it is not known it is listed as such...may be a lot of work but it seems like a good idea and people would be willing to pay a lot more for that document.Then maybe finally there won't be such a distaste for a rebody. They could be accepted just like Shelby's are. They may not be as valuable as a non-rebody but the folks looking can make that choice and not worry. Better to have the info and decide than to get something you don't want.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Lets not forget that there are more buyers than there are cars, and if a fellow want's one of these cars and there are none for sale he would have to settle for a rebody or nothing, maybe a clone???. I still think that even though it's a rebody it's still worth alot of money, maybe not as much as an original but still up there. Really out of the known exsisting ZL1 left how many demand top dollar, and how many are at the bottm of the scale??. Whats the range $500 - 1 mill????

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

What would you do with this one?

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Love the Shelby Registry. Only wish Gm had such.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

[ QUOTE ]
What would you do with this one?

[/ QUOTE ]

Get the trailer......and buckle down for a loooong time!


Steve https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

[ QUOTE ]
What would you do with this one?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can tell you what i definitely wouldn't do with it, and thats cut the firewall off and weld it to a different body. While it definitely needs alot of work, there is plenty to start with. In fact, I've seen guys restore NON supercars that were as bad or worse than that...all it takes is time, money, and patience... a pro bodyman wouldn't hurt either! Very cool pic btw...

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

[ QUOTE ]
Love the Shelby Registry. Only wish Gm had such.

[/ QUOTE ]

GM doesn't but there are plenty of Registries geared towards the Chevrolets. Unfortunately, the LS-6 Chevelle people seem to have a lot to hide as they don't want much to do with one. However, the purpose of the registry is NOT to disclose issues with one's car but rather list legit ones.
Rick

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

[ QUOTE ]
What would you do with this one?

[/ QUOTE ]

Can I have it?

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Marlin, what has happened with this Yenko hulk? Has anyone taken on the challenge to restore it, or is it one of those that are still sitting in the same place as when this photo was taken and not for sale? I'm hopefing that it's the first option.
Jesse

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Where do I sign up to revive that Yenko shell. I promise no rebodies from my shop!!!!!!!!!!!!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Blair

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

How's this for how hard it is; let's say you can legally cut the body away from the vins, you then slide a Nova,Mustang, 'Cuda, Studebaker or whatever instead of a camaro and by law you've got a real ZL-1!!! Murky, murky waters.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

CamaroJoe nailed it again https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

A car like the FG one is not for everyone, but money, time, advice and a learning curve is the answer - not another body for a f/wall swap or tag switch.

As far as I know, the car remains as shown but is no longer stuck in that field. I think it's in litigation, but not due to a certification argument.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

If this car could talk and tell all the cool racing stories what would it say?
You know, if you think about it, the best way to look at this whole scenerio is like this. You lay out $100,000 grand for a rebodied Yenko camaro with only the vin and tag the original parts, the actual car your driving around in now has all new drive train and a really nice donor body from a super clean original 307 camaro. You step on the gas and smoke the tires and you say to yourself man it sure is nice to cruise in the actual car that was special ordered from the factory and got tuned up by Yenko. Would you feel like you got your money's worth or do you feel like something just isnt right https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/crazy.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

If it's good for a Shelby I wonder why the Chevrolet people are so offended by it ? I always liked stock stuff so I guess that would make me a purist (I've been called worse)but most people in this hobby probably aren't purists... these cars are here to stay now so a it could only be a good thing if every Supercar was accounted for...rebody or not...problem is most of them that will be found already have been found so working backwards is probably impossible.....what started as a more or less informal need for documentation and registry has taken on a more critical role....... it's probably too late now to get more in depth. At least we have most of the Yenko and some other VINS. If an LS 6 Registry ever gets born it would be gut wrenching....I would rather have a rebodied car than an all out made up fake car with fake POP,trim and Buildsheet any day...whether it's an LS6 L78 or anything else for that matter.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

[ QUOTE ]
Love the Shelby Registry. Only wish Gm had such.

[/ QUOTE ]


Having owned a Shelby in the past, I am very familiar with how they do things. And, the sYc has considered doing something along the same lines. But, here is the problem.

Right now a COPO/Yenko certificate only addresses the area of does the VIN plate on the car match a known Yenko/COPO VIN number. In many cases, Ed nor Vince have personally examined cars they issued certificates to. If the certificate stated this, maybe as a disclaimer, it would alleviate some of the problems we are facing today. No more could such as certificate be used as a means to verify the whole car.

To do a registry, such as the SAAC, would require a lot of leg work, $$$, and most importantly, would stir up a lot of ill feelings in the hobby. A lot of the cars in our hobby today were restored years ago, when they were worth a lot less money, and the rebody issue was not such touchy issue. I know of several very suspect cars right now, if exposed, would cause all h-ll to break loose. And who could blame someone for being upset, who had paid big $$ for a car, only to hear that it was bogus. And then, what about the seller, who suddenly was under attack, maybe even in court. A sticky wicket to say the least.

I for one would love to see a true SAAC type registry, but not for sure how to go about implementing such an endeavor with out adding fuel to an already somewhat volatile hobby. I will be the first to admit I do not have the answer and am open to any and all suggestions in how we can go about finding a better way to police our hobby. Lets hear it.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

I agree 100%, very difficult and unrealistic. Just wishing. Having purchased a Shelby recently and getting a copy of the Registry is wonderful. Actually very appealing selling feature of Shelby's because of that. Not perfect, but close.

It's just hard when the very strong passion we all have for the hobby can't be even more enjoyable becasue of all these stressful #rs, Vins, Etc, etc.

If it was done many years ago when $ didn't matter as much, then it would be awesome now, bummer.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

[ QUOTE ]

A lot of the cars in our hobby today were restored years ago, when they were worth a lot less money, and the rebody issue was not such touchy issue. I know of several very suspect cars right now, if exposed, would cause all h-ll to break loose. And who could blame someone for being upset, who had paid big $$ for a car, only to hear that it was bogus. And then, what about the seller, who suddenly was under attack, maybe even in court. A sticky wicket to say the least.



[/ QUOTE ]

Bogus? I'm starting to get confused.... (doesn't take much at times!)

There seems to be a need for certain lines drawn or definitions on the discussion - Bogus, rebody, fake, restamp, recreation, clone, etc.

To me, each issue has certain degrees of difficult associated with it.

I'd think a bogus car or fake car is one turned into something it originally wasn't - like taking a plain Chevelle, putting SS stuff and a 454 in there, and faking stamps, build sheets, etc. and then a miracle occurs and it becomes a rare LS6. That's a bogus/fake car. Something that never was, but now is. If the GM records miraculously appeared, there wouldn't be a car in that configuration with those numbers. Those are flat-out wrong.


Restamping engines or trannies or rears to fake them and make them appear to be original to a car when they aren't isn't right either. Then again, I feel the same way about new "dated" glass too, although most people feel differently about engine stamps and dates than glass dates.

The grayest area seems to be the repair/restoration of "real" or special cars and the process that's used. Repairing every piece of metal is apparently not a legal crime as long as you don't remove the tags, right?

However, while there usually isn't any original body panels remaining when a severely deteriorated car is restored, it's not morally wrong for the collector/enthusiast either if the whole thing has been rebuilt around a roof and firewall.

But, taking that original rusty car and transferring everything (factory drivetrain, wiring, interior, tags, whatever) to a better shell/chunk of original metal that rolled down the same assembly line through the same plant and was built the same way and treating it much like a repair part or panel is wrong? I know it crosses the legal line due to the tag swap, but overlooking that, how is it any different to the end result of restoring/saving a car?

Another scenario that gets real murky is when someone has a rusted hulk with pedigreed tags and NO factory original drivetrain or the parts that made it special in the first place. Taking a VIN, putting it on another shell, and then faking an engine and drivetrain and the rest of the car around it isn't right either. I see less of an issue with transferring all the original parts to a different shell than I do with taking a VIN and cowl tag and faking a drivetrain and car around it.

Each person has their opinion, and this will never be resolved. My intent was to just type and try and sort out my own thoughts. Thanks for reading!

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Question, If you take a Yenko cowl section with vin and trim tag and graft it onto a 69 Shelby Mustang is it still a Yenko? Thats what a rebody amounts to.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know of several very suspect cars right now, if exposed, would cause all h-ll to break loose. And who could blame someone for being upset, who had paid big $$ for a car, only to hear that it was bogus. And then, what about the seller, who suddenly was under attack, maybe even in court. A sticky wicket to say the least.



[/ QUOTE ]

It's statements like that where I have a problem. These "suspect" cars will probably never be revealed for what they are because of who they belong to. But let any other supercar or muscle car come up and people are all over it telling what all is wrong with it. In my opinion, it is more acceptable to replace 80% or 90% of a $250K supercar than it is to replace the same amount on a $40K muscle car. It all about the all mighty dollar.
James

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Great situations of reference, both the real and supossed ones! . Again I'll say the intent to defraud would be an important one if a buyer expected sucess in litigation. . For sure it's a big grey area some don't want clarification on but the DMV definition above gives a good idea of how it would be looked at legally. . A tough point I see is the "creator" of the item in question is not necesarily the person commiting the fraud (whether he be the bodyman or orchestrator of the puzzle) if he keeps his records and facts open and discloses all at sale time. . When finished however, the person who titles or sells the item without filing the necessary DMV paperwork is who would be "looked poorly on" and always remember that old saying, ignorance of the law is no excuse! . With so many scenarios to consider, it's tough to draw a line anywhere? . A "firewall" car or any method thats true purpose is to transfer the Vin and hidden Vin is questionable....and if the car is so rusty, why is the firewall being welded into a nice body other than to transfer identity? . The biggest thing I get from this whole thread is, a genuine survivor car is worth a whole lot more than a restored car no mater how "perfect or correct" the restoration car is! ~ Pete

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

While we are exploring situations here:

A car has a firewall job done when it was only 1.5 years old as a repair while under insurance. The firewall effort was not concealed, and was just ripped across the floorboards - rockers and all. The original green paint is still visible on this blue car.

What is it? Is it acceptable as a repair? The motive at the time it was done was to repair it, not to defraud anyone.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

[ QUOTE ]
While we are exploring situations here:

A car has a firewall job done when it was only 1.5 years old as a repair while under insurance. The firewall effort was not concealed, and was just ripped across the floorboards - rockers and all. The original green paint is still visible on this blue car.

What is it? Is it acceptable as a repair? The motive at the time it was done was to repair it, not to defraud anyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perfect example Marlin! We think of nothing about these cars that were in fact repaired back in their infant days but the same job done today is taboo. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

A car has a firewall job done when it was only 1.5 years old as a repair while under insurance. The firewall effort was not concealed, and was just ripped across the floorboards - rockers and all. The original green paint is still visible on this blue car.

What is it? Is it acceptable as a repair? The motive at the time it was done was to repair it, not to defraud anyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the proof is there to support the above, the intent to defraud is not there....yet! . Sounds like a "clipped" car which is cut/joined through the floors and A-pilars and a common repair shop situation. . So, here we are years later, do you now clean up the poor workmanship....probably, even though it "disguises" this repair fact further. . Just when you sell the car you need to pass this information on to the next owner and it's best to do this on paper so if he ever sells it without doing the same to the susequent buyer, he can't say he wasn't aware! ~ Pete

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

See, I do see something wrong with the 1.5 year old repair - in that, I would not want to own it! The original car is long gone, only the firewall (+some rocker & toe board material) remains. The intent was clearly not there, but it is still a firewalled car. It's very muddy waters here.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

I agree 100% Marlin. IMO, a rebody is a rebody...period. It makes no difference when it was done, who did it, or who does or doesn't know about it. As much as people like to argue about it, the fact remains that no one REALLY thinks its ok to do anyhow. Those who do it generally keep very quiet that they did it, while at the same time, lots of supercars/musclecars have extensive panel replacement and thats rarely a big secret. In fact, its often used as a positive feature... how many ads list "New GM sheetmetal" as a selling factor? Lots. Thats because replacing alot of sheetmetal is WAY different than putting a firewall from one car onto a different car and calling it restored.

Once again, replacing sheetmetal and clipping a complete car and welding the firewall onto another one is not, was not, and will never be "the same thing" no matter how much folks try to tell themselves (or others) that it is. I have yet to see a car that had a useable firewall and tags, but NOTHING at all that was salvageable on it from the firewall back.

Hopefully my point is understood, because thats all i have to say on the matter. Everyone can "debate" the definition all they want, but in my mind, the difference between panel replacement and rebodying is rather clear.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

[ QUOTE ]
While we are exploring situations here:

A car has a firewall job done when it was only 1.5 years old as a repair while under insurance. The firewall effort was not concealed, and was just ripped across the floorboards - rockers and all. The original green paint is still visible on this blue car.

What is it? Is it acceptable as a repair? The motive at the time it was done was to repair it, not to defraud anyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aren't cars this badly damaged normally totalled by the insurance company? And, if someone pieces two cars together, a salvage title is issued? I just don't think this sounds like a realistic scenario.
-Sam

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
While we are exploring situations here:

A car has a firewall job done when it was only 1.5 years old as a repair while under insurance. The firewall effort was not concealed, and was just ripped across the floorboards - rockers and all. The original green paint is still visible on this blue car.

What is it? Is it acceptable as a repair? The motive at the time it was done was to repair it, not to defraud anyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aren't cars this badly damaged normally totalled by the insurance company? And, if someone pieces two cars together, a salvage title is issued? I just don't think this sounds like a realistic scenario.
-Sam

[/ QUOTE ]

If they had insurance, you would think so, but what if they had influence with the insurance company.
I have a firewalled 70 Nova SS that I am parting out. I don't know why the original owner did what he did, may not have had the insurance to cover it, whatever the case, it does not have a salvaged title.
A little diffent situation though, it was firewalled somwhere after '86 and never put back together.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

[ QUOTE ]
Aren't cars this badly damaged normally totalled by the insurance company? And, if someone pieces two cars together, a salvage title is issued? I just don't think this sounds like a realistic scenario.
-Sam

[/ QUOTE ]

Sam,
Assuming we were talking about cars that were rebuilt from a totaled car in the late 60s or early 70s, they did not have salvage titles then (at least not MN) so yes this could be very realistic.
Rick

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Very good point Sam. I forgot about Dan's car, but that is a perfect example to answer Sam's question. I don't know why the repair was done the way it was on some of these cars, but that is how they exist today.

My example is a real live Deuce, and the current owner bought it that way in '72 or so. It is of no consequence to him, he didn't do the damage or the firewall job.

So, somehow this level of repair is ok for some not for others, but Slim Shady's example of cowl patch panel repair is ok - or not?

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Anyone recall this little gem of a story? What will this car be when it reappears?


Short update on the HH car;

The original owner of this car confirms that it was a Tuxedo Black, X11 Copo that was purchased from Wallace Chevrolet in Linden, NJ. The owner removed the VIN (616462)and Trim Tag many years ago, and junked the car. The owner retained the bill of sale, dash bezel, the doors, a fender and possibly the transmission. The owner told each of us the same story, that there was no body and it was junked 20 years ago in northern NJ. These items were for sale, however, approx. 6 people passed on the deal because there was no firewall - much less an entire car. One person considered buying the items as memorabilia, and to prevent a rebody, but the price was prohibitive for that purpose.

About a month ago, I received word that somebody in NY claimed to have bought these items from the orig owner. Additionally, the claim is that the original body was found and pulled from a junk yard after 20+ years even though the orig owner did not remember where the body went. The plan is to restore the car, not sure if it will be done as the HH or factory.

Take it for what it's worth, but beware

--------------------

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/show...0/fpart/1/vc/1

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Good points and ideas, but first I think a few definitions of the types of "repair"....rebodied, clipped, firewalled....whatever is in order before condeming one or the other. . Personally I think the above scenario using a rear clip from a donor car as a different thing than a "firewall car". . It seems like a firewall car may sometimes be a car who's firewall has been spliced and sectioned out to retain the hidden Vin also not disturb the Vin tag area itself?
Lets just get deep into it and present another scenario. . It's your lucky day. . You find a ZL1 Camaro deal. . Sadly it's become part of the ground sitting in a backyard since 1970 but it's genuine, the motor, trans, rear and tags are all there and are all THE originals. . The original owner has passed away and his wife is an old lady in an old folks home. . With the deal is a another '69 in the garage, the wife's car, it's a clean 307 car, even a stick! . Lucky again as she'd left the files w/ original bill of sales, window stickers and POPs for both cars on the visor of the car in the garage! . Oh, the old folks home just called too and the old lady has passed away, now at peace with the news her cars have found a good home. . It's all in your shop now....lets look over what we've got and see how we're gonna' fix this one Goob? ~ Pete

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

You handle the situation the same as you SHOULD if the bank made an error and added three zeros to your checking account balance. They probably won't find out (actually, they will), but what is the RIGHT thing to do. It is the people who don't do the RIGHT thing that we are talking about. Who here is one of those who would say nothing. I personally would like to know, so I can NOT purchase anything from you in the future.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

I personally feel it's difficult to comment on what someone should do in any real situations. . Whether right or wrong, lets hypothetically "repair" the imagined ZL1 by a rebody, firewalling....a few different ways and define what these repairs are termed. . I'm not into calling anything bogus....just feel clarification of the definitions is important and everyone can have their own opninon of what's right or wrong. ~ Pete

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Ok...Just thinking outloud here...

Car 1. All origional car like it was the day it rolled off the assembly line. Lets say worth $1,000,000

Car 2. Body all origional sheetmetal, but driveline, or interior, or other non body items bought to make car look as good or better than car 1. Still worth $1 mil. ?????

Car 3. Body needs quarters, maybe a floor pan or 2, driveline, interior, all trim and badges. When done looks better than car 1 or car 2. Still worth $1 mil. ???????

Car 4. Total rust bucket that you save the firewall and door posts and take other sheetmetal or car and weld to it. Looks better than any assembley line car could look when done. Still worth $1 mil. ?????

Car 5. Total rust bucket, needs everything, cut out firewall, transfer to good body, when done car looks like a million dollars. Still worth $1 mil. ??????

My take is Car 1 should be worth the most money.

Car 2 even though close has to be worth less.

Car 3 though good when done just has to be worth less. I think it falls into the catagory of new car drove off the lot and then gets hit in fender. Even though fixed and looks like new it won't bring the new price and shouldn't.

Car 4 and 5 to me fall in the same catagory, they are not the origional cars no matter how much they look like them. Maybe car 4 is worth a little more but I wouldn't want to be the one that bought that car for a mint and then found out later that the only thing origional on it was the door posts.

Now jump to the other side...I have these cars for sale.

Car 1 Has to be worth more than any other of these cars because: #1 Its all origional #2 I have it and its all origional #3 non of the other cars are all origional. #4 Did I mention its all origional.

Car 2 #1 My car is just like car 1 it has all origional sheetmetal #2 I spent $$$$$$$$ restoring this car back to all origional condition. #3 Did I mention that this car has all origional sheetmetal just like Car 1.

Car 3 #1 This car is just like car 1 #2 no expence was spared restoring this car, making sure that all nos parts were used. #3 Car 1 sold for $1 mil. and this car is just like it.

Car 4 and 5 #1 the body? yea we used all origional or nos sheetmetal to restore this car. #2 dirveline matching? yea all the codes are correct for that year car. #3 price? yea car 1 sold for $1 mil and this car looks better than it does.


Now quoting my old dad, "They say my farm is worth 10 times more than I paid for it. I want them to lay the cold hard cash in my had, then I will believe them"

Anything for sale is worth as much as someone at that moment is willing to pay for it.

With help from the good folks on this site I hope that no one gets burned with a car that is a outright fake. With the information out there I also hope that no one buys a rebody in any shape form or fashion thinking that it is a all origional car. But if they know the facts and still want the car for the price asked then far be it from me to put the car down.

There are some great guys on this site that know what they are doing when looking at a car. They are more than willing to help and at times go out of their way to make sure things are what they are supposed to be. Brian H. helped me out when I bought the Turbo Z and I will be forever thankful. It has turned into a buyer beware world, so don't be afraid to ask for help.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

The Unintentional Rebody Scenerio...
You find a nice fully documented ZL1 needing new floor and trunk pan and interior, ok, you get it done and take it for a ride and get side swiped. Now we put on a new front fender, driver door and rear quarter, primer it all up and go for another ride and get side swiped on the other side and we replace passenger door, front fender and rear quarter and primer it up and go for a drive and park it next to a high rise, you come out of the porn shop and, Bam, a freggin Piano falls on it and crushes the roof, hood and trunk. So we replace those and primer it up and back to the porn shop we go, now while reading our favorite books we come back out and the entire drive train gets stolen so now we go and find some date matching parts and put them in and go and get a new paint job. 10 years and 20 owners later the car sells and somebody gets this beautiful ZL1, fully documented and sells it as original for top dollar...Would it mater if it happened over time or at one time?