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This is out of the Muscle Car Enthusiast Jan 2005 that was quoted in another thread by MR70, it is a great article and you should check out the entire thing if possible. Mr. Schorr is a knowledgable and respected car enthusiast, and I'm not really sure what this means. I agree with Tom that exhaust would have been an issue. George Delorean would have known a little bit about what he told Tom on the manifolds, so it makes me wonder if George's knowledge was from a time prior to Mr. Schorr's accounting of the Milford Grounds?
http://www.empgmc.com/race/mce.jpg |
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I can not believe that I am searching the Internet for Nova Super Sport info. and come upon the lengthiest RA V discussion I have ever seen. (In a Yenko Web Site!).
I have not read all of the discussions, but I am very impressed with some of the history that has been dug up. (I think it will take a week of solid reading to go through all the threads) Steve - I commend your investigation effort!! There has been so many stories of someone knows someone that the real full story is hard to figure out. If your collecting info on the RAV intakes, My father still has one of the factory high-rise duel 4bls on his 63 Catalina. In fact he probably owns or has owned at least 1 of every RAV piece ever built. Brian |
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Brian I'm on the trail of a few in Michigan right now, just for sport....
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif |
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When I saw Jim Wangers speak at our POCI local Chapter last year, I was impressed. He is now giving credit where it's due in the article, I'm still impressed!!! Thank you Jim.
Pontiac Enthusiast Jan/Feb 2005 http://www.empgmc.com/race/pe1.jpg |
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[ QUOTE ]
If your collecting info on the RAV intakes, My father still has one of the factory high-rise duel 4bls on his 63 Catalina. In fact he probably owns or has owned at least 1 of every RAV piece ever built. Brian [/ QUOTE ] Brian, Does that deuce have a plate between the carbs? If so, I'd love to see a photo of it. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif I've heard that the Royal racing team's '63 Tempest wagon had a 421SD with this dual-quad intake, yet there was an additional bore in the center of this intake for a 2-bbl. carb. This was to keep the car running smoothly (and fuel-efficiently) until it was lined up in the staging lanes. Then all hell would break loose. I was told Pontiac never really put the 2-bbl. on it, but there should be a plate there to accomodate such. If you can get a high-rez photo for of that intake and carbs for my Royal book I would be forever grateful! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif Mac |
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Mac
We have been talking about the RAV 2x4 intake, as was Brian. The one you are chasing down is the early SD D port intake. This is from Pete's book: http://www.empgmc.com/race/sd2.jpg |
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Brian...your last name shows up in a lot of Pontiac racing stuff !!! Welcome...and Tom S. can probably tell us all about that idling carb set-up !
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I have never seen the idle carb on a intke in person,Pete has a pic on pg 183 with the center carb on a OVC engine.I just sold my 63 alu Cat and it has a real Bathtub on it,I have 2 repops in my garage.I bet I have had at least 5 real ones and 4-5 repops go through my hands.The real rare one is the Tempest bathtub which is a little shorter.Tom
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Thanks guys. I’ll add what I can from memory. I’ve restored dozens of cars over the years, and at one time had a fairly decent collection of cars myself, but never could pry a set of V heads from him.
I wish I could get my father to get involved in these discussions. He could probably add allot of info, but has always shied away from discussions. He has had a number of people over the years approach him about writing an article about the cars. (Especially after Pete’s book came out) He has always turned them down. As Steve showed, the intake you are talking about is the 63 421SD bathtub. That is the intake originally on his 63. He has the intake, heads, and exhaust in storage. The car has had RAV heads and the 2x4 intake on it since the early 70’s. He had (has) an entire binder related to RAV documentation. (I say had because I have tried to find it and he can’t remember what happened to it) He did a fair amount of experimentation with the V heads when they came out. Around 74 he tried running Super Stock with the 63 but AHRA, IHRA nor NHRA would consider the heads legal. They considered them experimental and had no data related to them. He was introduced to Tom Nell through a mutual friend and Tom helped him put an entire binder of data and specification related to the program. He submitted it to all 3 bodies, but only AHRA agreed to legalize them. (He ended up setting a 2bl, 4bl, and 2x4 bl. record at the same meet with the 63) He ran AHRA exclusively until the Sunbird was built in 79. Speaking of ex. manifold and back door parts. For about 20-25 years he had a set of the F/B 303 ex. Manifolds that came right out of the dyno room. They had holes dilled and tapped in them for the ex. Probes. Unfortunate, they got separated and sold, so somewhere out there 2 people each have a manifold with holes drilled in them. For years, he also had a RAV display motor put together with a crossram intake. He made adapters to use in on the 400, but never ended up using it. Do not know where it went, believe he sold it to someone in California? Brian |
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Brian... now I'm impressed!!! I sure hope you locate your fathers notes, because Tom Nell is the real deal in this. There may be no other such notes in existence.
I love pics, if there is anyway you can share some of past or present it would be sweet. What do you do now in the way of Pontiacs and racing? |
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Brian and say say this with NO DISRESPECT,WHY do people save stuff and keep it out of the hands of people that could use the it now?I know of many people that have no intentions of using SD and RA V parts that are stored in their garage.I have had tons of SD and RA V parts go through my hands.If I have no intentions to use it or extras I do my best to move it to people that can use them now.I have NO intentions of putting them in the "box" with me when im gone.In fact a year or so ago I needed another RA V balancer for my other motor and could not pry one away from anyone,so I had them repoped and have put a couple extra in circulation.Tom
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None taken Tom.
Actually I feel the same way now. At one time around 92-93 my collection consisted of a 70 LS5 Chevelle, 70 W30, 71 W30, 70 W31, 2 black 69 Judges, 68 RA2 GTO, 70 RA4 T/A, and a 73 T/A. I had that he who dies with the most toys wins mentality! At some point, between the storage fees and not driving them, I thought this is ridiculous. I sold every car except the 68 GTO and 1 of the Judges. (I still have them). Then again, I did buy a house with the money, so I guess it was not that bad. As far as my father and V stuff. He never collected that stuff for bragging rights. He was playing with combinations constantly back then. I hate to say it, but I believe he even cut up a number of heads. He really only has a set of heads left and what is on the 63. He sold most of that stuff over the last 15 years after the GP was gone. I do not see the Catalina going anywhere soon. I think he would get rid of us before getting rid of that car! As far as SD stuff, I know he does not have any parts except what belongs on the 63. Brian |
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Brian
Neat stuff, have you followed in your fathers footsteps on racing? And give the quick on the two cars you still have, please. Where did your dad get his stuff? Also, I would love to get into contact with some one that knows the Akron area. I've tried a couple from GTOAA and POCI with no luck. Would like to investigate the possibility that one of the Magnums or Golden Sabres have survived, Akron would seem the logical place to start. I'm sure Mr. Glasgo has already done some research on the Magnum, but I have never heard anything official on either car. Could you help with that? Steve |
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For all of us who may be wondering how TJS44 and Brian (Warpath) have this kind of insight...let me take a second to show you where Tom and Brian come from.Looks like Brians Dad may have some seat time..Tom was actually there in 63! I will refrain from any Moses comments !!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ontiacs/3p.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ontiacs/1p.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ontiacs/2p.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ontiacs/4p.jpg |
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***** **** Belair!!!!!!!!! Don't hold out on us like that again!!!!
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif |
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Photos courtesy of Pontiac Musclecar Performance 1955-1979 by Pete McCarthy...not sure if it's still available but the number I see on it is TX2 617 877 .This is a very informative Pontiac book. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif
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Who are you,Bob Gagliano....
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https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif I love early Pontiacs...
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DAMN,let sleeping dogs lay!LOL,Tom
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1 Attachment(s)
Listed as a 1965 experimental engine, this photo appears to have the SD421 aluminum exhaust manifolds.
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that is a "stock"63 SD 421 engine.The drag race cars had alu.exhaust.Tom
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[ QUOTE ]
Mac We have been talking about the RAV 2x4 intake, as was Brian. The one you are chasing down is the early SD D port intake. This is from Pete's book: [/ QUOTE ] Steve, Those are great photos! Thanks very much. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif How high is your scan definition? Can you send them to me in ultra-high resolution? The reason I ask is because when Milt Schornack started working @ Royal in Oct. '63, his very first task was to tear down the Royal Tempest race wagon with the 421SD and that same intake. (It also had alumnum headers, but they collected into a single pipe. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif It also had the rear transaxle with two transmissions (1.38:1 & 1.78:1) at the other end of the "rubber band drive" axle.) Anyway the car was "sugared" by an unknown opponent at the Indy Nationals and had to be completely torn down. The car was so frickin' interesting I wanted to put a few pix of it in the Schornack bio. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif After the car was rebuilt, it was sold a few weeks later and Schornack says he never saw it again. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif Less than a month later Jim Wangers rolled into Royal with this red '64 Tempest "GTO" thing with a "389" (ha ha!) in it and the rest is history. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif Mac |
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Terry's Judge before he put in the RAV:
http://www.empgmc.com/race/oct.jpg Full Size Wider Shot http://www.empgmc.com/race/428tripowert.jpg Full Size |
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[ QUOTE ]
Brian Neat stuff, have you followed in your fathers footsteps on racing? And give the quick on the two cars you still have, please. Where did your dad get his stuff? Also, I would love to get into contact with some one that knows the Akron area. I've tried a couple from GTOAA and POCI with no luck. Would like to investigate the possibility that one of the Magnums or Golden Sabres have survived, Akron would seem the logical place to start. I'm sure Mr. Glasgo has already done some research on the Magnum, but I have never heard anything official on either car. Could you help with that? Steve [/ QUOTE ] As far as being a car nut I followed, but I have probably only done 1 percent related to racing that he did. I kind of took a number life twists. Turned wrenches for a few years for Sohio after graduation (BP for the younger guys) and put muscle cars together on the side for extra cash. By 88, my father went into semi-retirement as far as racing and got more involved with parts. We officially started Warpath Restoration that year. I ran the car restoration side and he ran the parts business side. Got an engineering degree in 94 and went to work for Dana’s Chassis division during steering and suspension design. Left them 2 years ago and went to work for a division of Parker Hannifin in their advanced materials unit. I do still stay involved with the product reproduction side of Warpath. Have never really stopped racing, just always done local bracket racing. The last few years have got involved with WKA racing (Never thought I’d enjoy turning but it is really fun!) See attachment. For Belair, my father kind of missed the real early times. He was drafted into the Army in 62 and spent the next few years working for Uncle Sam. He does have some great stories of being in the Army during those times. He raced a Buick for a few years after getting out and then got the 63. As far as where he got his V parts. Answer is everywhere. Funny thing is I think every person that seriously raced those parts kept in touch with everyone. As he heard of any parts or someone getting out, he would try and buy up what they had. (especially related to heads and intakes) Sorry can’t help much with the Magnums. Aside from reading about them, don’t know much else. John probably is one of your best sources around that area. Brian |
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OOPS I meant to say I was going to put some of the interview in this thread, here is the set up:
[ QUOTE ] The interview was conducted at the home ofMr. Carl Papke on December 28,1991. Were you always into Pontiacs? When I was a kid in high school I liked Dodges, because' 62 Dodges were the state police cars. They were already starting to get a reputation. I don't remember knowing about' 62 421 Pontiacs at the time. I knew about state police cars. I wasn't aware of Pontiacs until I was 17 years old. I got into a '63 421 Super Duty Catalina that was owned by a guy by the name of Joe Fercowitz. He's dead now. He got killed in that car. Right over here west of Silverwood, went off the road do in 'over a hundred miles an hour and it killed him. His brother John still runs the farm over there. But Joe gave me a ride in his Super Duty Pontiac. The most God-awful thing [ ever rode in in my life. We went north out of Clifford goin' out towards the power plant. There was a substation out there. il was probably a quarter mile flat stretch, and we were well up to a hundred miles an hour and stoppin' by the time we go down on the comer, which was a half a mile. That thing had tri-power on it, it was just screamin' and haulin' ass. II was a real car. I never thought about Dodges again after that. [/ QUOTE ] |
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Steve,sounds like he rode in a 421 HO car,not a SD!Call me at my office,310 2977609.Tom
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I like "haulin ass" part.
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More if you have them...wonder where they are going with that wagon in that strange hauler
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I got a ho bunch, going to do some here and there. I'm not going to post the entire interview, here is another little part:
[ QUOTE ] So they had the body mount cushions all loaded onto the spud wrench? The doughnuts were all setting right on there, and the spud wrench was up through 'em. When that body came down they'd guide that spud wrench into the hole, and that would bring the body down onto there. They matched up. They didn't have a lot of problems other than cross threaded bolts or maybe one of the rubber body mounts would falloff as the body was getting shifted around. The guy didn't have time to set there and pick that up off the floor to put it back in there. He put the bolt in it, and they'd take a piece of chalk, mark an X on the side of the frame which indicated that it had a body mount that was defective. Something was missing; a bolt wasn't in. Maybe that guy was behind and he just let that one go. He didn't even try to do his job putting the body bolt in. He just put an X on the frame. As it went through they had inspectors. Them inspectors would look at all of this, and they would see the X on the frame and then it would go into final repair. When the car was already running and assembled, they would go back and redo these defects in the car. After they put the body on the first thing that would happen was the radiator support went on. The inner fender wells would go on before the fenders. Then the fenders would go on. There was another assembly line that come in that carried the grilles. [/ QUOTE ] |
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[ QUOTE ]
You started working at the plane in late 1963, did you ever see any Super Duty cars in the plant? I never seen any of them assembled. I saw the motors setting in the plants. I heard a story about some "Pike's Peak" cars. Supposed to have been a dozen red Catalinas with Super Dutys. I've seen red cars. !remember seeing' red cars out by the Quonset hut. I have no idea if they were "Pike's Peak" cars; if they was Super Duty or what they were. I didn't go pick up the hoods and look under them. But I did see Super Duty engines. The engineering building had one. And at one time they had a tri-power GTO motor that was painted black. It wasn't Pontiac blue, it was black. It had chrome exhaust manifolds on it. It had a chrome intake manifold. It had chrome tappet covers, and it was painted black. It was really pretty. It sat on an engine stand in the engineering building. It was a show motor. They had Super duty motors in there. At the time, I don't know if they were what they called "bathtub" manifolds or not, but they were aluminum, dual quads, huge strange looking' things that we didn't see on the production lines. We didn't know what they were. We didn't know if they were going to be in production on next year's model, last year's model or what. Unfortunately y they had already been through their heyday and weren't going to be produced any more. I don't have any idea where those motors went to. I know a young lad who works in the old plant 8, which right now is a warehouse, just a storage place is all it is. I know that they scrapped a rack of Ram Air V motors, which went to Sam Allen's junk yard in Pontiac. General Motors demands that he crushes, or melts or destroys them. And they watch to make sure that that" s done. He said that he knew that there was a rack, which is five, that went out there. These were complete, assembled motors that had been stored there for years, and they were scrapped. I don't know why they would do that, but they do. These were completely assembled motors. They were good, but they were scrap as far as the company was concerned. [/ QUOTE ] |
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One man's scrap is another man's...
I've heard that Chevrolet melted down a bunch of the crossram intakes. But I can't picture a complete engine being scrapped! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/frown.gif |
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Hello
Anyone know where this 69 TA is or any info about what happened to it. VIN 22337N109163 I was owner once. RAIV 4 Speed Thanks Mike |
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might contact PHS and see if anyone has asked for docs on it.Tom
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Late –71-72 when I used to hag out down atco there was a firebird that would just tear up the track at the time it was said to be a RA-V but back then I was 20 and it did not mean anything to me at the time only the car was an animal it was called bird of prey does anybody in south Jersey remember this car
[image]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...66/Savetn_.jpg[/image] [image]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...ave0001tn_.jpg[/image] |
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[ QUOTE ]
How well aligned was the front end sheet metal during assembly? Well they had six guys at the end of that line that did nothing but align hoods and fenders and bumpers. Each one of them was responsible for every sixth car down the line. He'd just count six cars and start to work on that. They had their own carts with their special tools, bars, boards and stuff. They used 4x4s wrapped with carpet on one end and had handles carved out of other end. That was their special tool for adjusting bumpers. If a bumper wasn' tjust, right, they'd take them posts and hit the bumper in the right spot. If it didn't move, why they'd just hit it harder the second time. They didn't loosen any bolts. The endura bumpers really gave them fits when they first came out. It took a while to find the right pry points, but pretty soon they figured out how to put a long metal bar into the radiator support injust the right spot to spring the whole front bumper. They used the 4x4 on them endura front ends once in a while. My friend Lee even saw a guy hit one so hard one of the headlights got knocked out and ended up on the floor. [/ QUOTE ] |
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