Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

like all pontiac blocks,back by the dist hole.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Here's how one of the few prototype aluminum Ram Air V's escaped from the factory:

December 1969

Mac wheeled the truck passed the main entrance gate to the security post. The evening air was cold, and it nipped at his cheeks as he rolled down the window. The guard recognized Mac with a warm smile. "Working another late night?" he asked. "Not if I can help it", replied Mac with just an hint of scorn in his voice. The guard waved him through with a light chuckle. The truck continued on its way through the dusting of fresh snow that covered the grounds. Between two large industrial buildings, a faint brake squeal brought the panel truck to a gentle halt. Engaging reverse, Mac positioned the vehicle in the empty loading bay, set the parking brake, and killed the engine and running lights. The bay was dark and still. The compound was deserted. Checking his watch, Mac estimated he had at least one hour before the next sentry would circle past for a routine check. He took a moment to ponder his next steps.

Well seasoned and in his late 50's, Mac had been an engineer for almost 30 years. Climbing through the automotive ranks, he had gained the respect of his peers as a pioneer of performance designs. The last ten years had been spent in Pontiac Division's Special Design & Products Department. A cutting edge think-tank and design team assembled by the brass to point the division down the road of the future. With a generous budget, Mac's team had designed and built some of the most impressive performance platforms GM had ever created. While some of the ideas were incorporated into production designs, for reasons of pure politics and economics, the boldest of the designs never saw the light of day. This was never truer than with Mac's latest project. The thought of it boiled his blood. While showered with praise for his accomplishments, word had come down that the project, ... his baby, was to be canned. There was going to be a shift in design parameters for the next decade: high performance was out; emissions and economy were in. In fact, with the labour disruptions, the whole Special Designs team was to be disbanded before the end of the month. Right before the holiday season! "Heartless bastards", Mac muttered under his breath, knowing all too well he was also slated to be axed. Worse news yet: all prototypes and current ongoing projects were to be seized for immediate destruction. A decade of hard work and dedication was about to be cut up and melted down.

Mac brought a flame to a filterless Camel, and took a long, slow draw. With an affirming nod, he flipped the latch and slipped out of the cab. He swung the rear panel doors open and turned to the building. Rattling his keys he worked the big pad lock to the roll-top door. The bearing wheels groaned in a low thunder as Mac heaved open the big door. Darkness. Reaching into his pocket he removed a pen-light and brought a small beam of light to focus on the abyss. In the dim glow, there near the door, were ten unmarked, sealed crates of varying sizes. A smirk creased his now wind-chilled face. With a small dolly he quickly but carefully went to work loading the items into the truck. Fifteen minutes later, the roll-top door was secured and Mac was back at the wheel. The snow was coming down hard now. Just as well, he thought, it will cover my tracks. At the gate, his old pal tipped his hat as he passed. Mac nodded and eased the truck back onto the main road for the trip home.

As tension left his body, warm satisfaction moved quickly to replace it. His ultimate engineering achievement was now safe from the merciless fires of the inferno. The prize was his. Of the five working prototypes, he had assured that this one would not be destroyed...


... to be continued...


PS. Everyone knows this is tongue in cheek, right?
FYI - I'm just another one of the Pure Stock guys who's dropped in for a visit. Nice thread. Excellent info and impressive list of contributors. Cheers!

<font color="blue">rdl</font>

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

You forgot to add "It was a dark &amp; stormy night" [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Great story! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img]

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

[ QUOTE ]
I thought we were just having a general discussion about RAV? I asked to drop the debate of the car for now, and I was trying to find out if codes are on other RAV blocks.

[/ QUOTE ]
Did I miss something? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif[/img] I thought you were trying to get this info to prove (or disprove) that "the car" came from the factory with a Ram Air V? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]



[ QUOTE ]
And Bill Shultz was a misunderstanding; I honestly thought he was one of the aynonmous phone call people, just faking an id to jack with me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about it Steve, (and I'm not trying to be mean or sarcastic here) do you really think an "anonymous person" would have THAT photo of his car? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img] (see attachment to his first post on page 13 of the original thread) If you look at the photo, you can plainly see that it was not taken in a public place like a car show, nor does it look like one of the published photos from a book or magazine (they would not [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif[/img] use that photo with the TRUCK in the background) . That is a recent photo that we took while his car was being photographed for an upcoming book.

I will be back later with some information that will hopefully shed some light on this topic. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Rita [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

PS~ I think I am spending too much time here! I had a dream last night that I bought another Camaro. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img]

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Jeff

This is what I was told today about the other number, one above the production code. It was a number used to reference the engines as they were stored in bins prior to being dropped in a car. Upon being installed on the assembly line a triangle of reference then existed between the car, the GM paperwork, and the engine. Where the GM paperwork that documents this data, may be something the general public may never know, or it just might not exist now. Maybe Jim M. could shed some light on this.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

The verdict is in...You be the îJUDGEî [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif[/img]

Since this topic came up, I have been sifting through Bill's "RAM AIR V" file (while he is at work [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]). He has tons of info on the RAM AIR V motor. I think I may have found something that answers the ìMILLION DOLLAR QUESTIONî here (that being whether or not a particular Judge came from the factory with a RA V). I found photos of a ìcrated RA Vî (the same one) in two different publications from the mid 80ís (see below). It has an engine number stamped on it very similar to the one Steve posted from the Judge in question (see attachment in his post in response to GTO DON on page 3)

The engine in these articles is engine #689539. The one from the Judge in question appears to be engine #689549. I believe the engine number is part of a ìsequential numbering systemî. According to the ìdate cast codeî on engine #689539, it was cast on January 21,1970 during the night shift. Therefore, I would have to believe that engine #689549 would have been cast AFTER that. Since the motor in the Judge was built after January 21, 1970, and the car was invoiced in November of 1969, then logically there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that this engine was in that car from the FACTORY!

Court is now ADJOURNED!


Rita [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif[/img]

article #1

article #2

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Nice articles. I stand corrected regarding the stampings the article clearly states that these engines were hand stamped. Way to dig through the archives [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Ok Rita. Point Made.. Now enlarge that pic. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok Rita. Point Made.. Now enlarge that pic. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

You can look for that pic in the next issue of "Chevy Girls Gone Wild on the Supercar Forum" [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img]

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Rita that is some good work, I wish you would post the entire article and source. I have HPP April 84 that has RAM AIR V Machine Behind The Myth, but pages 29-35 are gone. Just so happens to be right where the article was, I had a bad habit of hanging the cool pics on my shop wall. No doubt where they went.

The Y is identical in the stamp style, and what little you posted partially answers some of my questions.

You have assumed too much with Gary's engine though. I have looked and looked at the pic he gave me, I can't tell if it's a 3, 5, 6, or 8; and I'm leaning towards the 8. It looks like it turns back up where the two circles meet. Too much guess work on how they came about with the numbers, sequential or however they did it.

The only for sure way to know, would be for Gary to tell us the unknown digit and more important the date code. A third engine to reference would be nice too, I'm still trying to track down a lead on that right now.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

[ QUOTE ]

You have assumed too much with Gary's engine though. I have looked and looked at the pic he gave me, I can't tell if it's a 3, 5, 6, or 8; and I'm leaning towards the 8. It looks like it turns back up where the two circles meet.

[/ QUOTE ]

The first digit has to be a "6" since they only made a couple hundred motors. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Did you go back and look at The Little Big GTO book that I referenced? Some descrepincies on the amounts from that, compared to the 200 usually talked about.

They do not have to all be in order, anything is possible with GM. Not matter what Gary's turns out to be, a few more RAV blocks to reference would be nice.

What about the block in your car?

Oh, and that article looks like Classic GTO newsletter print. Is that where it's from?

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Since the RAV's are hard to come by; if anyone out there has blocks close enough to the numbers here below, please post them so we can see if there is a method to the way they do this. Both of these are out of the original vehicles, and I have no reason to think they are tampered with:

69 GTO 400 YS 0582823 Date code 0049 block 9790071
68 GP 428 YH 164333 Date code 1157 block 9792968

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Good work Rita, that is what I was suggesting for someone to look into. That engine production number along with the block date should help shed some light. I would guess the NICB should have the shipping date for that Judge as well so if the engine was built after the car was shipped, that should clinch it. Can anyone verify the ship date? I could see where a car could sit for a while like some of the COPO's did when components weren't available.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

OK, hold on a second. As I was walking through the parking lot I was thinking, we never suggested the car was built with the motor. We have been told that it was put in the car after production, in engineering. I don't know how long engineering typically had a car, but in the middle of winter there wouldn't be much hurry. Certainly for a car intended for the strip.

The date of when Knafel took delivery would be crucial. And we are still working off of Rita's theroy about the date code, that may not be right.

I personally have waited 6 months after ordering a GMC, because they were out of 5 speed tranny's. So the car waiting in engineering for a couple of months may not be to far out of reach.

I threw up the window sticker on the GMC just for grins, was an awesome truck!!

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

First of all ,forget the big little gto book! That book has so many things wrong in it ,its not funny, I THINK YOUR BEATING A DEAD HORSE HERE STEVED, IM TRYING TO BE SUBJECTIVE. Ofcourse all the block production numbers are going to be in order. Honestly,i cant understand why its so important for you to make this car real! Everytime somebody comes up with another fact,you dismiss it and say'you never know with pontiac" ask gary to publish everthing about htis car including trim tag info and miles on the odometer. Im sure this car should have no more than 5,000 original miles on it if its had a ra v in it since new. im sure it was not an everyday car. how many owners has it had ? Are they still alive? I know if i would have bought that car new,id have every piece of paperwork on it.Is Does this car belong to Gary Daniels? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Don this is from your last post:

"SR ON IT FOR SERVICE REPLACEMENT! NO CODES. ITS PLAIN TO SEE SOMEBODY STAMPED THAT BLOCK YOU HAVE [OTHER THAN PONTIAC]THATS WHY THAT JUDGE WILL NEVER TURN OUT TO"

Rita's research kinda put the slame dunk on your opinions, you are now null and void.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Steved, you need to reread the original thread the question from Astock asked "the question is how many factory ram air V Judges were produced [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif[/img]" You also implied this was a factory Ram Air V car, quoting the memo notation as proof on the PHS docs.

I believe Mrs. Billybobcat to be correct about the engine serial production number being an ordered sequence and that with only a handful of these engines produced for over the counter use it would make perfect sense that the number is a 6. You get all these other pics but not a date code?

This is the never ending post there have been many noted authorities like Jim M. and I believe an engineer from the engine shop that stated that this engine was never installed at the factory or engineering, but dealer installed.

What else do we need here the second coming? Unless a buildsheet, protecto plate, or an engineering change order that shows that code or serial production code is produced (from a legitimate source) it will always be looked upon as a dealer installed option, which I think is really cool and a unique piece of Pontiac history, a rare car with possible race history with a very rare engine.

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread but it is now like beating a dead horse we all need to agree to disagree and the majority of Poncho fans know what the real deal is.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

I believe it has been mentioned several times it is the responsibilty for the car to be proved.

Even though Rita is trying to dis-prove it, atleast she is doing something. And with here article post, pretty much smacked Don upside his head with his accusation of fraud. I wasn't going to go back on that; but since Don decided to step back in, there it is.

It would still be nice to get some perspective on the block codes, regarless of the RAV debate. I don't suppose you have a Pontiac block that you could add some insight with?

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

I wouldn't call it case closed until someone can show proof that the car arrived at Knafel before the engine was actually built. Does the PHS documentation show when the car was shipped to the dealer or when the car arrived at the dealer? Or can someone produce an NICB report showing the date Knafel got the car? That seems to be the next logical step in proving or disproving.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Jeff

This is all I have, and it probably has nothing to do with time spent in engineering.

Jim M would probably be the next hope for documentation. Supposedly all of Knafel's records are destroyed.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Why would you bother this man again his quote below is from a previous post. If this car was real I believe he would be one of the first to talk it up.

"Guys Pontiac "never" built a Ram Air V GTO at the factory!!!"

Jim Mattison
Pontiac Historic Services


The RA V horse is starting to look like road kill it has been beatin so badly.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Because Jim was kind enough to call me during this debate, we worked things out between us. I apologized to him in person and publicly. And he stated, he would do what he could to help in the matter.

Any other questions?

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you bother this man again his quote below is from a previous post. If this car was real I believe he would be one of the first to talk it up.

"Guys Pontiac "never" built a Ram Air V GTO at the factory!!!"

Jim Mattison
Pontiac Historic Services


The RA V horse is starting to look like road kill it has been beatin so badly.



[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how you can look at it that way. According to Chevrolet records, they never built a 68 Z28 convertible either. And we know that car went to Engineering to have the crossram and rear disc brakes put on. I think the research that has been done regarding this GTO has been very informative. Even if it can be proven that this car arrived at Knafel with a RA IV engine, then what's the story behind the RA V engine that is in the car now? It has the correct engine code and production stampings. Were they stamped after the fact? We'll probably never really know for sure, but why call it a dead issue when there are still questions worth finding answers to.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does the PHS documentation show when the car was shipped to the dealer or when the car arrived at the dealer?

[/ QUOTE ]

Take a look at the attachment in the reply that Steve posted about this question. The document clearly shows a ìDATE SHIPPEDî of ì11-06-69î It also shows a ìDATE OF NOTEî of ì11-19(?)-69 and a date of ì11-30-69î as ìINTEREST FROMî.
Think about it Steve. You work at a car dealership. Do you really think that the owner of a dealership is going to pay INTEREST for several months on a car that they have not even taken delivery of? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif[/img]

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

[ QUOTE ]
Don this is from your last post:

"SR ON IT FOR SERVICE REPLACEMENT! NO CODES. ITS PLAIN TO SEE SOMEBODY STAMPED THAT BLOCK YOU HAVE [OTHER THAN PONTIAC]THATS WHY THAT JUDGE WILL NEVER TURN OUT TO"

Rita's research kinda put the slame dunk on your opinions, you are now null and void.



[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif[/img]

THAT WAS NOT FAIR!!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] You quoted him in mid-sentence!!! Why do you keep picking on him? Is it because he has a different opinion than you? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] It appears that you have been doing this since this thread started.

Rita [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif[/img]

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

My families dealership never had a car go to engineering that I'm aware of, so I wouldn't have anything to look back on in our files to verify that either way.

Date shipped, could be the date it went to engineering, and interest from could be when it left engineering.

Rita your doing a great job, we just need some way to verify.

We have a man that will probably be making a post some time today that will probably establish your theroy on the date code correlation with the production number. He also thinks all of them started in a 6. If your theroy is correct, all we have to do is find the date it left engineering. It will either prove it didn't happen, or leave the door open.

I'm working on the your date code theory, you think you can find out if the dates on the invioce actually reflect engineering?

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

WOW...MrsBillyBobcat
If you were MsBillyBobcat...I'd be calling on you! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Good investigative work here people,Keep it coming.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

[ QUOTE ]
WOW...MrsBillyBobcat
If you were MsBillyBobcat...I'd be calling on you! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Good investigative work here people,Keep it coming.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] THANKS Rick! (LMAO) I needed that! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif[/img]

Rita [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Nice legswork Rita.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Jeff I agree that it would be cool to find out how the RA V got in that Judge and if it in fact had some race history like the Tin Indian, but I think that being installed at the factory or engineering is becoming a beatin horse issue. Unlike the 68 Z-28 Covert which had documentation to support that it is the real deal the supposed RA V car in question does not.

I like all musclecars but have been a Pontiac person for a long time. Pontiac guys always love to talk about the RA V as the Hemi or Chevy Rat beater. Although it pains me to write this Chevrolet was always and is GM's racing flagship and when MacDonald took over at Pontiac a lot of programs were stopped. Look at Pontiac today they pulled out of NASCAR. With Toyota coming into the sport you can bet dollars to donuts that all the Racing program money that was earmarked for Pontiac will be given to Chevrolet. ( I know that's a little off topic)to kick Toyotas butt.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

[ QUOTE ]
Nice legswork Rita.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Mike! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

BTW...was that "s" suppose to be in there? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] Or was your mind somewhere else? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif[/img]

(just kidding!)

Rita [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Uh, just a lousy typist. Don't tell MR. Billy.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

I think this thread has made some great progress on helping with this particular car. If the car was indeed shipped and delivered in Nov like it appears, and the engine in it was not built until Jan, then that lends a lot of proof that it didn't come in the car new. That's basically what was being asked for in the first thread. Can someone help document or verify the car and engine. I don't know why some people are getting all worked up over the car or information, but together as a whole, this group has produced some great research and evidence. I still think it's interesting to see the "WY" codes on these engines. It sure makes you think they were intended to go in as production engines to receive a production code. Those articles you posted Rita also may help prove that the stamping on the engine Steve posted is an original Pontiac stamp(hand stamped in Engineering) on a RA V engine. This information together has a lot of value.
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

[ QUOTE ]
Rita, did that other engine you were referring to have the "WY" code on it as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it did (see the articles that I attached to the bottom of my post from last night). From what I have read, "WY" is the correct code for a GTO with a manual transmission.

Rita [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Jeff

As we draw close to the end of this one car...

Something else that has come out of this. If anyone pops their hood claiming to have a RAV block in the bay, they better have their business together if anyone that followed this thread sees it.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

First of all regarding the date code theory. Pontiac did make some Ram Air V blocks in 69.They were in fact developed for Trans Am racing (303CID) and strip tested in a 69 GTO (400 cid) first. Are you trying to say that if this motor pre-dates the car that it is the real deal. Well I don't believe that. It just means someone purchased a date coded 69 block.

The block in the artcle Mrs Billybobcat attached was date coded 70. The serial production number you are trying to validate is later in the sequence and should have a later date code. If anyone knows RA V's the Shultzes do they have a lot of documentation and a car that is documented.

A 69 car with documentation but a 70 car without, why do you think someone would not document that 70 car? It's only a year later. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]

Things that make you go hmmmmmmmm!

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Yup, these threads have presented some great information. Kind of reminds me about the 283's that some of the 67 Camaros got when they were running low on 327's. The best way to prove or disprove something is to get the most research and evidence together. Even the 68 Camaro 327 TH350 cars weren't thought to be original until they found a bunch of them to help document them. And based on Dan's research into the Hauser ZL1's, I'm open to the possibility that they made more than 69 ZL1 Camaros. I've seen the ads and nobody can identify the mysterious blue car that they had. I'll save that for another argument, I mean discussion.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Yes I agree about the codes, but it may be quite simple; if Pontiac was going to have the engines certified for emissions and production to meet AMA specifications then they would have to ship one of each an automatic RA V engine and a manual RA V engine to the emissions testing labs. Vacuum lines and some emissions plumbing were different between autos and sticks. Why is it difficult to believe that they had codes for these engines?

There is no question regarding a RA V engines existence only if it was factory or dealer installed that is where all the commotion came from. After all it's only a piece of iron and it is not worth arguing about or coming down on people for differing opinions [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif[/img]