Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Don, I'd like to see one of your invoices with the "memo" on it, and if you can give a little story behind it. Just for comparison.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

After speaking with Jim on Friday in regards to other vehicles I asked him about the car. He knows it and as you can see by his post he states clearly as he told me that the car was not delivered from the factory with a Ram Air V. The car is no slouch it is a RAM IV Judge and even if Knafel put the V in it at the dealership that is very cool. One very important fact is that the Ram Air V engine was never certified for federal emissions standards, even back then prodcution engines had to pass federal emission standards before they could be released to production.

Why would GM risk fines from the feds to release one car even to a dealer like Knafel Pontiac? They may have been high profile back in the day and very significant in Pontiac racing history and they sold a lot of Pontiacs but not enough to cover a huge fine and risk more stringent standards placed upon them in future engine programs and certifcations for federal government compliance. Even if it was back doored (which I don't believe personally) from engineering don't you think they would want to make sure the car was a race only vehicle?

The RA V is not like the engine in a COPO Camaro which was certified and released to the public.

Who cares what pans out here, it is a Real RA IV car which is very rare by itself when compared to some high dollar Mopars and others it's low production numbers make it more rare as we all see by the high dollars they are commanding the rest of hobby thinks so too. Look at the current edition of Mopar Collectors guide they ask some high profile Mopar restorers the state of the hobby and the guy at Aloha Restorations is doing a RA III 69 TA convertible and once completed he projects the price of this vehicle to be 400K. And they tell you keep an eye out for those RA IV cars.

This thread has been fun but like every vehicle out there whether it be a COPO, Yenko, Nickey, Motion, Bobcat and rare production cars, a paper trail showing real codes and history are what makes a car with a questionable story fact not fiction.

John that RA V 69 GTO you did is very nice, It had the V top end only right? With all the right goodies up top. the gentleman that owns it now was going to trade me that car for a 70 Z28 4 speed car that had 2,800 original documented miles which he purchased. You guys do some nice work.

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Here is the dealer invoice on the Knafel "Tin Indian" Judge. Take it for what it's worth. Just as an aside, I for one, like dealer [or Hurst] converted cars as much, or more than, factory built cars.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Holly cow, that is very close to the same. Did you by any chance check to see if the factory exhaust hanger bolt holes on the frame were untapped?

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Nope. What would that mean?

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I would think that meant the car came equipped with or prepared for headers and no exhaust.
Motown [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Knafel said the car I'm talking about (car X) came with headers installed and no exhaust. The current owner said he can find no bolt tap marks in the frame holes on car X, which backs up Knafel's story. Those hangers used a 3/8 self tapping thread bolt that left noticable markings in the holes. If your car is like this other one, and no one altered the holes you could verify it.

I would be a little surprised though. Seems like the Knafel's would have certainly said something about your car being delivered under the same circumstances, especially since it's such a popular car.

I think this deserves a phone call to the Knafel's.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I'll ask Micky Hale to check, but, I believe it started out as just a run of the mill RA IV. According to Arlen Vanke, who wrenched on the car during its racing career, it was the white car used in the promo pictures with the pretty girl, by a lake. Knafel was able to "get a deal" on it, and, it was shipped to them after a stop in engineering. I don't know this to be fact. Just reporting what Vanke told me, and, he seems [to ME] to have a pretty good grasp on what went on in the shop back then.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I find that very interesting indeed. very!!!

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

If you click here, you'll see the pic I think he's talking about. It ain't white.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Yeah, but, he got the pretty girl part right. Maybe there's another, don't know.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

The 5/16 holes where the hangars go are tapped so there was a exhaust on the car.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

How about a nekkie girl on a white Judge? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Could the "memo" on both invoices just mean they got a detour in Engineering, and the Engineering log book is where the real answers are?

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Memo might be for a sealer delete. There was not one ounce of sealer anywhere on this car. Also had a very light weight padding in the seats, no backing on the carpet either. Just some of the not norm stuff.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

This is my favorite of all Poncho the 1970 Goat Judge
and Orbit Orange [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Micky, you and the owner of car X and 70 Tin Indian need to have a conference call and compare notes.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Looking at both sheets, it looks like the "SPEC EQUIP" is code "N15". Is there any definition of what these codes are in Pontiac documentation?

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Sixtie Muscle... the owner of car X would like to talk to you via email, but says your email returns undeliverable. If you could email me, or call me I can pass along a way for you two to talk. My number.. 918-260-0151

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

If someone has Arlene's current phone number,email or PM and I'll see if he's on line.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

don, what kind of "cool" gto's do you have?

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Ok.. Here is my story.. I know this doesn't involve the car in question, but maybe a reader out there knows the car I'm about to talk about. Back in 1990 I was a senior in HS and owned a 71 Chevelle. Long story short, crashed the Chevelle (rolled it 3 times).. few months later financed and bought a 1984 Trans Am (the blk/gold 5spd H.O. one.. Oh..baby... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]) Anyway, 2 months after that I drove by a 1970 GTO Judge on a piss ant car lot in Bedford, PA every day for about 2 weeks.. Then one day I got the bright Idea to stop in and look at it. The car was a light brown/tan color.. had some previous body work done on the quarters.. original Fawn color interior. buckets. 4 spd. Ram Air IV hood and designation.. square piece of sheet metal screwed over the hole covering the missing hood tach. Needed paint.. Interior wasn't bad. Looked mostly original all over.. Missing Ram Air underhood stuff (had a chrome 14" open element). Anyway, I asked to take it for a test drive. And we did....... I drove it, and Jesus H Christ that thing was the STRONGEST thing I have EVER driven or even been in to this day... (other than the Motion Cars I got to ride in at SCR6)... I hope someone out there owns this car or knows where it is today.. But here's how it went.. When I drove it, it had a REAL heavy spring on the accelerator pump and made the pedal feel HEAVY.. So you had to give it some force to open it up.. On the ride out of the dealer I grannyed it.. 1...2...3...4.. Freaking chirped EVERY gear up to 60mph. (part throttle) The guy along for the ride didn't know the rear end ratio... So I drove down the road about a 1-1/2 mi and turned around in the parking lot at Burger King at the Bedford Turnpike exit. (I'm sure some of you know where that's at, CamaroJoe? SK? well.. used to be a BK, it's a Parking Lot now). Anyway. I pulled out on the road in 1st to head back and I thought to myself I'm going to see ALL this thing's got... So I MASHED it to the floor and the thing DIED.. I flooded it just like that.. So I coasted off to the side and held it to the floor cranking the engine till it sputtered back to life.. I gave it a few sec. then pulled out easy and short shifted clear to 4th.. Went under the turnpike tunnel and saw I had a good 1/2 mile of open road.. Going about 40mph I banged it up to 3rd and gave it EVERYTHING it had.. From 40-45mph going from 4th to 3rd that damn GTO stood straight up, I swear the front end came up a foot... I put down 40ft of rubber on the road and the guy in the passenger seat got his neck snapped as did I.. I stayed in it and hit 4th at about 80mph (not much later) and it layed down another 5-10ft of black marks. All I could do was look at the guy and say , Damn.. thing has some power huh? All he did was shake his head yeah.. lol... I could have bought this car for $2,000 at the time and BEGGED and BEGGED my parents to let me.. But of course I had JUST bought the Trans Am.. So I had to let the GTO be a memory.. I still rub that in to them to this day.. Anyway, in talking with the seller, he told me some other people had looked at it including a well known GTO guy and that guy told him it had some rare experimental Heads on it.. That's about all I remember.. other than when I hit 3rd with the Hurst shifter my knuckles contacted the dashboard. Anyone else know this car? Would love to see it again. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I knew if we talked Ponchos long enough that the Glasgo boys would find us! Nice to see ya stop by John!

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

That's one awesome story you have there. Makes me wish that I'd grown up in your generation (I'm just a freshmen in college). I'm doing the best that I can, with the money I have (or don't have!), and have a weak-kneed 305 sbc in my '76 camaro. I was going for the looks, and realized after I was done, that I should've went for performance first. Well, what can I do now? Just wait till after college and pray I get a really, really good paying job to finance my musclecar "habit."

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Ed, i know exactly where you are talking about, but unfortunately I've never seen or heard of the car you're talking about...maybe its still out there... lots of old cars in that neck of the woods... i know Thomas Chevrolet in Bedford PA sold a few high perf Camaros, including a JL8 Crossram Z that's still in the area.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Here's the top secret Ram Air V in action, you should see the tunnel port on this sucker!!!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Speeeeeed!

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ed, i know exactly where you are talking about, but unfortunately I've never seen or heard of the car you're talking about...maybe its still out there... lots of old cars in that neck of the woods... i know Thomas Chevrolet in Bedford PA sold a few high perf Camaros, including a JL8 Crossram Z that's still in the area.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, Thomas has been around for quite some time now. The dealer this Judge was at was one of the little fly by night dealers that came and went. They were located just up the road from Thomas on the other side of the Entrance to the Old Bedford Village in that little lot there that used to be a gas station back in the day. I don't know what's there now if anything. But that dealer lasted about 6 months so theres no tracing the GTO from there. Hopefully someone will read this and remember that car. It was in the Spring of 1990, if my memory is still serving me. Hopefully that Judge is in someones garage and not the woods.. It was the real deal and almost all there, and ran strong as hell. I'm sure it's still got to be alive somewhere unless some dumbass bought it back then and beat the snot out of it. It was only $2,000 so anyone could've picked it up. I think it went out of the area because after it sold I never saw it again. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

[ QUOTE ]
Makes me wish that I'd grown up in your generation (I'm just a freshmen in college).

[/ QUOTE ] Man, you're making me feel Old.. My Generation? I'm only 31.. At what age do you reach "the hill"? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Just for grins, what do you think these cars could be valued at if they did indeed come with the RAV from engineering? Do you think they would be in the same league as the 69 all aluminum Vette, that 1 of 2 is known to exist?

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Those 2 Corvettes exist.One is in Kevin S. collection out west,the other in Florida I believe.
I would think it would be comparable to these cars.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

My bad, I thought the one if Florida was only known about.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I think there must have been more than 2 built. I remember seeing one in person down at 4th & Lewis at a bodyshop, back when it was new and still had a window sticker on it. It was a blue cpe. Never did get to talk to the owner as no one was around. (Boy was that ever tempting) and when I went back the next day it was gone. I later went to work for that same bodyshop but it is long gone now. Sure wish I had taken a pic of it.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I think there has been discussion about the number of ZL1 Corvettes built and I thought I had heard 7 instead of the 2 that are always talked about. Do you remember roughly what the sticker price was on the Blue Vette you saw?

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Upon reviewing Pete McCarthy and John Angeles Pontiac Musclecar Performance book, I find it to be layered with SD build sheets including the "memo". In this book, numerous references to cars going to engineering all of which are referred to as factory cars. Numerous examples of "memo" and "sepcial equipment", and no body sealer as Mike indicated with the Tin Indian. Along with many other variations, the only differences between these SD's cars and two 70's we are now talking about seems to be no one has written a book about them.

I also find it interesting that there is no mention of any Knafel race cars, or Knafel racing invovlement. Does anyone know what that is all about? Pete or John have a beef with Bill?

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

[ QUOTE ]
Along with many other variations, the only differences between these SD's cars and two 70's we are now talking about seems to be no one has written a book about them

[/ QUOTE ] SD was an entire package to include body parts ,aluminum,engine,rear end,exhaust....produced to win races in both drag racing and Grand National racing...the heavy duty parts produced by Pontiac back then was amazing...it was MUCH more than just an engine....I don't think they ever drilled holes in a GTO frame !!!That book is one of the best to read about the heyday of Pontiac performance.Hard to draw a line between the SD and RA V IMO.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I don't think anyone would argue against the SD's being bad to the bone race cars, and very much factory supported. I would love to have one some day, pending winning the lotto.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

In response to the 1 of 2 corvettes; What about the Pontiac Banshee (only 2 made)? I had a chance to see one at the Iola Car Show in Iola, WI. That thing was soooooooo cool. Almost exactly like the Vette, but with a little different front, and a specially raised center hood. The hood looked like it had a partial shark fin coming out of it right in the center. Anyone else see this car in person?

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I don't mean to disagree with my good friend Belair, but, some clarification is warrented.The Super Duty cars didn't all have aluminum body parts, and there were a relatively large number made. Sure, the "Swiss Cheese" cars [13 I think?] were very special, but, there were lots of 62 & 63 Super Dutys built for street use. I found the quote about a RA IV SD motor very interesting because that is what the Tin Indian has in it, a RAV block, etc., and RAIV Heads. So, maybe there is a correlation between the early SDs and the later "SD's". Both of the RA IV cars I have were built by Pontiac with all the weight saving deletions possible. They were built specifically for racing, and that's all they did.