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Are any of Jenkin's crew guys still around, they might remember if the car was an RS when purchased. Given the fact it had a lot of RS content I think it's plausible to think it was an RS rather than not. And the story about the color, Doug Boyce said Grumpy was urged by some photographer to try a different color than white because it was easier to photograph. But then Bill just painted the car white. Since he painted which is known, he might have tinkered with some aspect of the cars. I don't see him adding the rear marker lights but that's just me.
This is the only mention of Bill Hayes I have found: https://www.billrolikenterprises.com/vintage.php All of these cool vintage photos were taken by myself between 1966 and 1976, prior to the bulk of my own racing activities. Most were taken at Island Dragway, Great Meadows, NJ, Old Bridge Twp. Raceway Park, Englishtown, NJ, or Indianapolis Raceway Park, Clermont, IN. You will also see a group of unique photos I took during a split, two week stay at Don Carlton's shop in Lenoir, NC, during late 1976 and early 1977. I was assisting local race car welding guru Bill Hayes with fabrication on the Body-In-White Aspen Pro Stock car for NJ Super Stock racer Ed Lukas ("Over The Hill Gang" SS/AA). Don and head wrench Clyde Hodges were working on their other projects, including "stretching" the "Gold" Dodge Colt in preparation for the upcoming 1977 Winternationals, so Lukas wanted to speed up the process and sent us there. A fantastic experience! Sadly, the Aspen was the last car to come out of the Carlton shop, as he passed away as a result of injuries from a testing accident only a few months later. |
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I snapped these of IV at the inaugural Pro Stock at Pomona 1970.
Please excuse the image quality, the prints were stuck together for 50 years and separating them was challenging. - Bill W |
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Shawn Severin gave me these
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Amazing how nice Jenkins team made the rear wheel wells/lips to fit that monster rubber.
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Looped in another buddy to help with research. Today a decent baby step was made. Getting a little closer.
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I made this to show that Toy IV had a 1968 tag.
Some people said it had a 1967 tag but you can see it has the 1968 Fed Safety statement 67 and 68 had the rivets lower on the tag 1969 tags had the rivets in the center |
Was looking at some old conversations.
Dan Palchanes 2009 All the info and pictures I have,plus many conversations with Heavy and actually meeting him 2 years ago told me he had Grumpy's 68 RS/SS 396 to 427 4 speed Camaro.I know ownership History on the car too.Thats why I was real surprise what you first said,really confused me and what you were trying to say. Grumpy told me his car was not White originally from the factory.He told the original factory color and mentioned it was a original L89 396/375 RS/SS. I have the name of the guy whos doing the recreation of the original 68 Grumpy RS/SS Car. Dan Also Dan Palchanes says that the guy that bought it from Heavy was Frank C |
Thanks Carleen!!
Per Carmen Rotonda and Joe Algieri there was a guy in between, sounds like this Frank C. Do you have a full last name. |
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I did, and Carmen said it was not the guy. I'll ask Carmen again at some point but I peppered him up pretty good with questions so I don't want him to think I'm a pest (but I kind of am lol).
Of the guys I think it would be interesting to track down from history, Frank would be one, and Bill Hayes (Auto Weld) would be another. Can't find any info on either of them. I get no hits on Frank Carnisacola anywhere. I'm open minded that this might not be an accurate spelling of the last name. I only say that because I have a degree in linguistics and it suprises me to have zero hits on just the last name. |
I did, and Carmen said it was not the guy. I'll ask Carmen again at some point but I peppered him up pretty good with questions so I don't want him to think I'm a pest (but I kind of am lol).
Of the guys I think it would be interesting to track down from history, Frank would be one, and Bill Hayes (Auto Weld) would be another. Can't find any info on either of them. I get no hits on Frank Carnisacola anywhere. I'm open minded that this might not be an accurate spelling of the last name. I only say that because I have a degree in linguistics and it suprises to have zero hits on just the last name. |
Great thread John,....very interesting.
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Did some digging on Bill Hayes, so I'm told he used to have a shop in Patterson NJ. He did some work on IV for Joe Algieri. Sounds like he would be in his 80s. Was also told a guy named Bill Cerelli had a shop near Bill Hayes and maybe would know him or if he's still around. I'll poke around.
(edit) Bill Carelli has a FB page for his engine shop I'll try reaching him tomorrow. Been a bunch of phone calls last two days. |
Bill Cerrili is a great guy!
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Great, I'd just like to ask him if Bill Hayes is still with us, I'd like to talk to Bill H and ask him what work he did on IV.
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Talked to Bill Ceralli, he said Bill Hayes passed long time ago.
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We're still working contacts in NC. It's the only lead on the car, that the car was there in the early 90s. Been working through some names we've gotten.
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This is so great to hear some of the pieces coming together. Fingers crossed that IV is located.
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Keep up the good work PSJ! Here’s a few more Toy 1V pics… :beers: ~ Pete . |
Not just me. I think with a little more time will make some more progress. Just having a car guy told that the car he was looking at was IV in early 90s shows it's possible people still knew what car it was.
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That is some fantastic work John.....just keep digging. It would be a perfect ending to the hunt if you locate the Camaro.
Go get'em. Paul |
It's fun to play "In Search Of" with MIA cars.
Honestly if I lived in NJ I would ask Carmen to go out for lunch and interview him on the whereabouts of a number of cars. |
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So what’s this car? I’m green to all of this interested following along
https://www.onallcylinders.com/2016/...toy-iv-camaro/ |
Rich that is a '67, supposed to be acid dipped. Acid dipping was not legal pro stock, and this is not Toy IV. Highly likely the car has extensive racing history.
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Dale's car is the real car. Numerous ways to prove it. Stories about other cars are incorrect.
A lot of early pro stock cars were dipped or had dipped parts. I don't remember anybody checking metal thickness. |
IV was a 1968 Camaro.
Some people still have the VIN, Bill gave it to a few friends. |
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Dale's car is NOT Toy IV and is not even the correct year body. End of story, period.
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Even Grumpy when alive looked at the car and REFUSED the claim of it being his Toy IV. END OF THAT DISCUSSION. |
Grumpy was interviewed by Doug Boyce for the book, 1968 butternut yellow, L89. Joe Carella even shared a picture that shows that IV had a '68 trim tag. I've got a contact who was close to Bill who has the vin, and this guy is extremely credible.
I'm no expert on the early years of Pro Stock but I think you could not run a '67 in 1970 but maybe one of you guys knows more about it. There is nothing to discuss about IV being a '67. |
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Look at the side bar when Joe Algierie owned IV in 1980, look at how high it was. Saying that IV retained it's roll bar from the early 70's is not accurate. I'm not expert on the evolution of roll bars from 1968 to 1979, but it got changed to keep running the speeds it was running in the 70s.
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Jon Mello, Is dales car one of the first 25 Z28's as the article says?
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For even more proof look at the following pics, in the first one you can see the 68 dash pad and inner door panel, you couldn't install that over the metal top of a 67 door, even the weatherstrip is 68 you can tell by the top of it, second pic is a 67 weatherstrip
In the next two pics you see, I assume Grumpy reaching into the back of the car, you can see the top of the astro vent by his knee, then a pic clearly showing the car has the astro vent even the rear windlass looks to be 68 because this is a 68 camaro The last pic is Dales car it has an early style 67 only quarter, referred to as the telephone receiver style, that's most likely the original quarter and would never have had an astro vent installed it wouldn't even fit flush in that quarter |
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