For which we Pontiac enthusiast are very grateful.

K

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.Repro documents have their place as they're made for display purposes.Honest sellers disclose that beforehand & just destroy them.

By this definition,should reproduction car parts never be produced today too?
They too have their place & serve an honest purpose.

That would be great if everyone was honest.. But that is not the case. What happens if you die unexpectedly? Will your wife and/or kids know that fake docs are to be destroyed? What about the other guy that has the same thoughts as you? Eventually somewhere down the road this is gonna happen.. This is EXACTLY why I stated what I did previously.. I'll quote it for the lazy that do not want to go back..



The argument being discussed here will never end. Just like politics..

I agree not everyone is honest,that's why websites like this one help aid in what's original and what isn't.
Never go by what some widow or her children tell you their deceased husbands/fathers car is..At least I wouldn't.
Some might say a nieve buyer who refuses to be knowledgeable & informed in what to look for in a repro doc is lazy.....some might.

I had a window sticker made up. It's obviously a repro. I didn't buy the one that's made to look old etc. It's a brand new piece of paper. I laminated it. If anyone thinks it's original, they need a dope slap. IMO, there is nothing wrong with it. Like Darryl said, this is like politics. Thankfully my opinion is the right one. :D

Totally agree. I've been in this hobby for more than 45 years and have never agreed with reproduction documents. You don't need repro window stickers to interest people or generate discussion. The same content can be shown on a display sign or separate piece of paper without implying there is anything original or official about the information. Reproduction window stickers are bogus and frequently have made-up or incorrect information. Yes, they should be destroyed before a vehicle is put up for sale, but I doubt many are. Cars in the biggest North American auctions display bogus window stickers all the time. I have yet to see a repro window sticker displayed that contains the word 'reproduction' anywhere on the document, which can only leave the impression that it's original, and that's wrong. JMO.

Bob

But everyone is ok with clones...

I personally don't like clones. There are way too many and way too much false info out there.
Some of the prices are outrageous also.
I'm just not into this stuff for making money. I just like the sheer enjoyment I get from a REAL documented car. Nothing more nothing less.

Unsuspecting buyers with repro documents
 

[QUOTE=JayR;1401352]Totally agree. I've been in this hobby for more than 45 years and have never agreed with reproduction documents. You don't need repro window stickers to interest people or generate discussion. The same content can be shown on a display sign or separate piece of paper without implying there is anything original or official about the information. Reproduction window stickers are bogus and frequently have made-up or incorrect information. Yes, they should be destroyed before a vehicle is put up for sale, but I doubt many are. Cars in the biggest North American auctions display bogus window stickers all the time. I have yet to see a repro window sticker displayed that contains the word 'reproduction' anywhere on the document, which can only leave the impression that it's original, and that's wrong. JMO.

Bob[/QUOTE
I agree completely, BUT, it was my experience when I showed Corvettes, As stated in this post prior: There MUST be a Window Sticker attached to the car real or repro or points will be deducted at Bloomington Gold and NCRS judged events

Bill

That's a judgement call by an individual and not the documents fault.

The way I see it, to be safe, as far as Chevrolets go, any document you see should be considered repo.

Personally, I don't put much stock in the paperwork these days anyway. I let the car present itself. Do the homework. If I can't identify what the car is or should be with the parts and pieces that are present, on a Chevrolet that doesn't have an untampered data plate or vin that provides enough information, and have to rely on paperwork alone.......I just don't buy the car.

I agree with most, it's neat to see this stuff displayed at a show, it adds to the vintage appeal of a classic car, but when I see one, it's nothing more than show props to me. Assuming every one I see is real and original would just be stupid on my part.

Yes we are :wink: I have it for my bird and my mustang. As far as the Z goes, the data plate tells all, I don't necessarily need the paperwork to tell me what it is.
Technically the bird and mustang can also be deciphered and identified through the vin, and tags but....

I have the fisher broadcast sheet from my nova. Matches up nice with the cowl tag. But I guess I could assume that maybe the backseat was changed? I don't have the PoP for it. Just this sheet.

I will reconsider displaying it at shows.

Doc rebuild was never one to mince words....http://www.docrebuild.com/curr-evnt/...events-89.html

Here is a Doc Rebuild story where he accuses others including me of changing a Bloomington Gold Certificate from silver to gold. This was a 68 L89 Vette I owned and then Tim Gilmore owned. It in real life had a real Gold Certificate and was shown in the Bloomington coverage issue of Vette Vues show the list of gold winners including this car. How it scored silver on the judging sheets but awarded gold I have no idea but I'm sure nobody faked anything. I even called Doc and spoke to him but he never mentions that.


http://www.docrebuild.com/dr-r-web/C...Events-24.html

But he did list you as a "celebrity" owner.....

that ebay seller he refers to is out of business I believe. Used to have a website too, which is no more. I thought his documentation package cost more than that. He was even making cowl tags. He reproduced so many of the paper items found with the owners manual. I could always point out his work. He would add extra rubber ink stamps to the documents/warranty books he made and sold. Stuck out like a sore thumb. Like stamping the OK Used Car logo in the warranty book. Why would a brand new car have any OK Used Car stuff with it! haha

Then there was Bill Clement? down in TX. He was selling repro warranty books as NOS claiming they were simply consigning them for someone else and "we think they are real". He was asking several hundred a piece and people were buying them! Did the same thing for blank window sticker forms.

With the releasing of the ncrs documenti i bet owners with those fake pops were sent scrambling.

Bob[/QUOTE
There MUST be a Window Sticker attached to the car real or repro or points will be deducted at Bloomington Gold and NCRS judged events
Bill[/QUOTE]

Simply not true, NCRS does not allow a window sticker to be displayed unless it has been validated by their service, they assign no points to any paperwork and never have.

National Corvette Museum is misinformed:
 

They need to change the verbiage on their page advertising that Bloomington Gold requires a list of options, or their reproduction window sticker:

Window Sticker

Also called a Monroney Label, this is the sticker that is affixed to a new car when it is delivered to the consumer. A law was passed by Congress in 1958 requiring all automobile manufacturers to affix a price label to all new automobiles showing Manufacturers Suggested Retail Prices for a vehicle and all options installed at the factory. This law was proposed by Senator John Monroney, and was to begin with new 1959 models.

If your car is a show car, this informational piece is a must! Some car shows such as Bloomington Gold require you to have a list of options on the car. What better way than a reproduction of the window sticker? If you are ordering a reproduction window sticker, you must order the build sheet at the same time.

Here is the link to their page:
https://www.corvettemuseum.org/learn...ndow-stickers/

Paul

This link is to the National Corvette Museum who can reproduce the original window sticker and build sheet for every bowling green built Corvette they are not figments of the imagination but the real document reproduced. No different than Marti Report and PHS. Their is a difference when you create a document from the air rather than produce a document from actual historical records from the manufacturer.

Roy:
"Simply not true, NCRS does not allow a window sticker to be displayed unless it has been validated by their service, they assign no points to any paperwork and never have"
So, what you are saying is that any of these reproduced documents by the corvette museum would have to be validated, before they would be allowed to be displayed, correct?
Additionally, there are hundreds of people that think Bloomington requires either a list of options, window sticker or reproduction window sticker, to display the option list. I am not talking about judging the documents just that most people understand it's required. Looking through any Corvette forums, you will see the same. However you are saying, Blookington will not even allow a window sticker or reproduction window sticker to be displayed unless it has been validated?

Paul

NCRS does not offer any type of validation service for the 1975 through current paperwork the NCM can produce actual copies of, so no NCRS does not require those documents be validated. NCRS does not judge paperwork. They do require the blue sky figment of your imagination documents for 1962 through 1971 Corvettes be validated before you even display it at one of their shows, again it is not judged.

Bloomington is not NCRS! NCRS is a non profit hobbyist group, Bloomington is a for profit privately owned organization and unlike NCRS they do assign judging points to the documents.

No I said NCRS would not allow window stickers to be displayed unless they could be validated. The NCM documents are authentic copies just like the PHS documents and the records available from the Marti report on Fords.

NCRS does not judge paperwork, NCRS wants nothing to do with the counterfeit cottage industry. again NCRS is not Bloomington.

Phs
 

Roy, just for the record, what company is doing the reproduction documents for PHS?
Secondly, I have been to the Syosset Exotic Cars, NCRS judged event and there were about 25 cars there. Approx 6-7 of the cars judged displayed window stickers that were not validated and some pretty poor reproductions. I understand that the documents themselves are not being judged but they surely had them displayed. Unless the various chapters have their own rules.

Paul

Paul, what does it matter? Roy has made it clear that the documents are not judged. The vendor is a competitor of yours (regardless of "quality" of reproduction). The act was done by the car owner or car restorer. This deviates from the topic of conversation and skirts around core issues at hand.

Dan

my comments were directed at Regional and National events where the National Judging chairman is present and can enforce the rules, chapter events are just that chapter, if no national club officials are there all bets are off.

I believe PHS does them, you would have to ask them.

End of my involvement
 

All:
I've decided that any further correspondences I have relating to this thread, I will handle via PM. There is much more to this issue than meets the eye and there is no reason to make it public at this point.

Thanks,
Paul

It was a good time to be out of the Country for three weeks, I just got all caught up on this thread this morning. Thank you for your comments, Roy.