Going back to your post Bill on your LS6, I have personally never found a buildsheet on the passenger side, only the drivers side though they can be found anywhere. I recently posted a photo of a sheet I found on the Mist Green LS6. Check that side if you have not already.

I have great respect for Paul, for his knowledge and for his services (even though we couldn't nail down dealer 833 in Zone 23). Let's face it, Pauls efforts have probably led to a lot of information, and in some cases, the discovery of original paper.

We simply disagree on one thing: I believe EVERY reproduced WS should have a watermark indicatiing that it is a reproduction. I don't beleive for a minute Paul would furnish a WS to a guy who planned to use it to deceive. Still, there can be no denying that it could happen.

Even though most guys on this board would not use a reproduced WS do decieve (although a few of you would, I am sure... you know who you are!) the risk of deception in the future is too high. Pretty certain there are more fake WS out there than real ones.

While not exactly the same as the trim tag argument, there are many similarities. I don't see any downside to a watermark. If I were to order a WS for my car (I have no paperwork and cannot even determine with certainty who dealer 833 was) I would insist on a watermark. I am not going to be around forever, so I may not even be here to insist on "destroying" the repop WS next time the car changes hands.

Good post Lynn. And as I said, the "aging" process crosses the ethical line. I'm surprised that some people think that is part of a "proper restoration".
Verne

Well Now
 

I think we have now come full circle with this discussion........
SO HOW ABOUT THIS BEAUTIFUL WEATHER WE ARE HAVING !!!!!!!!!!!!
:)

Paul


I have some new data that shows zones, codes and districts along the the town the dealer was located in. Unfortunately it does not show the Dealer name. However, it may help us to pinpoint a dealer based on what we know about how dealer codes were assigned and also if there are very few dealers within the town.
I'll take a look for 23 833 and let you know.
I checked it's not on there either, sorry

Me

fake documents
 

you represent fake documents as real , you are putting yourself in legal jeopardy.

Thanks Paul. Despite our difference of opinion on the watermark, I DO appreciate all you do for many folks in the hobby. Even something as simple as identifying the dealer MAY lead to other info that I would never discover.

It is appreciated.

Ok Here we go
 

Mr: 707
I'll bite, lets go with this, you've made an accusation, so now substantiate it. You stated that I am representing documents that are fake as real, so please while everyone is listening, please provide proof to corroborate your statement?

Paul

https://s10.postimg.org/m6ea4y9gp/screenshot_4552.png

https://s7.postimg.org/b8p5rsuvf/screenshot_4554.png

We all know there is only one REAL WS - the one that came on the car when it left the factory

Was hoping it wouldn't deteriorate into this.

Paul: I did not read this post as an indictment of YOU.

"you represent fake documents as real , you are putting yourself in legal jeopardy."

I read it to mean that the person who DOES misrepresent it as "real" is placing himself in legal jeapardy. I believe that is a true statement.

I have not seen any post by anyone on this site that says YOU are representing them as real. You state they are authentic looking. A repop manufacturer says he makes a repop bumber that is so good you can't tell it from a real one. If I take that repop, but a gm part sticker on it, and sell it as original GM, I am committing fraud, not the manufacturer.

I agree Lynn, this thread is starting to deteriorate.

OK really
 

This is like watching fake news where people take things out of context and report only on sections that promote their thought or cases. Try to read everything:

" For those of you that are lucky enough to own the original paperwork and documentation, we all envy you. For those that aren’t as lucky, now is the time to own your own expertly reproduced Documents that make great Novelty items for display purposes"


Paul

Mr Thesauras
 

Ok, so you pulled the word authentic out and gave us a lesson on what the word means. Very good, guess you forgot about the next word, "looking" as in "authentic looking".
Good Job on that.
Why don't you look up the meaning of "Monroney Sticker" or "Window sticker" and forget everything else and explain what that means and again forget everything else on my page!!!

Paul

OK - I will make two substitutions instead of the word "authentic" according to the Dictionary:

"We custom create GENUINE looking documents for 1960 through 1982 Chevrolet Cars and Trucks"

"We custom create REAL looking documents for 1960 through 1982 Chevrolet Cars and Trucks"

Hows that?

Paul - let me ask you an honest question . . .

In all the years you have been reproducing your documents has there ever been a case where you fell victim to an unscrupulous person who used your documents to defraud another individual?

Answer first.
 

Lee,
To answer your question, no, I have never fell to that issue. Have you ever seen a single one of my documents used in an advertisement and not stated that they are reproductions?

paul

Hopefully this will rest this case:
 

Please review with an open mind and I think you will have a better understanding:

Let’s look at the facts here and I’m sure we all appreciate facts:
GM Heritage a division of General Motors who provides us with the wonderful information packets for our cars sanctioned and uploaded to the GM site there is a very informative packet for 1969 Camaros:
See attached packet and download if you don’t already have it:
https://www.gmheritagecenter.com/doc...let-Camaro.pdf

Please scroll down to page 120.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you are interested in original Pontiac information they still have copies of original invoices for older Pontiac models:
Scroll down to PHS Automotive services who manage the process for GM after you click on this link:
https://history.gmheritagecenter.com...n_Availability

PHS Automotive Services main page:

http://www.phs-online.com/index.html
Now, if you want to have a reproduction window sticker made up for your vehicle from this GM sanctioned company, here is their link:

http://www.phs-online.com/window%20sticker%20order.htm
Click on the image of the window sticker and read.

An excerpt from the verbiage after you click: “the owners of 1961 to 2000 Pontiacs have the opportunity to purchase exact reproductions of the original window sticker that came on their car”


I can show you more of the same from NCRS sites if you would like…

Paul

I am unable to answer your question Paul due to my limited exposure to cars being offered for sale where the documents can be viewed.

All I see in ads or auction "highlights/descriptions" is something to the tune of:

Original Build Sheet, Window Sticker, POP, etc. included

OK
 

Well then Lee, that makes a great case.

Paul

Paul:

You posted some sources for reproduction documentation in post #95 that you feel are totally reliable right?

How about this fake 1969 L89 Camaro SS 396?

http://www.cars-on-line.com/gen3-car.../posting/89129

There is a very long thread about this car here at Yenko.Net:

https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=94165

Just a footnote Paul:

I grew up in No. Merrick and owned a house in Lynbrook. You can call me a displaced Long Islander.

There has been some well know cases in my neck of the woods in ohio. They didnt go well for the forgers. Again i said i have no problem with reproduction window stickers BUT if they are represented as real thats a problem. I made no reference to whatever cars your talking about in this thread(i dont know anything about them) . ASK ANY lawyer. Stamping a vin number or hanging a fake tag in order to decieve someone your asking for legal trouble. MY OPINION

Huh???
 

Lee,
Post #95 is by someone named Astrojet on that thread you referenced, not sure what you are talking about.
Are you asking me if I think it's ok when fake anything is used in an advertisement, whether paperwork, tags or anything else?
Of course not, that is why I am constantly on so many forums helping to identify reproduction documents when advertised as authentic.
That's also why I work with admins from various web sites to help them identify repro paperwork advertised as real. And that's why I also work with some restoration shops to help identify reproduction paperwork prior to them working especially on high valued cars in order to protect themselves. And that's also why I send e-mails to people on ebay and Muscle Car Retail shops selling these vehicles advertised with original paperwork when it is not.
Not sure if that answers your questions?

Paul

Just curious, and I have no gun in this fight, but do you charge for authenticating original documents? I have the original docs (got them from a fastidious first owner) and my paperwork is approaching 50 years old and appears as new. I still think there are car owners (like me) who's paperwork might look like new because of the type of person that kept the docs in a safe. I went to an office supply warehouse and made exact color copies of my stuff and laminated the copies. I made a binder with the laminated items and that is what I use at shows, events, etc.
I hate to sound cynical, but unless there is an established chain of ownership, I question supporting paperwork on these old cars. Back in the '80s I saw a fellow spitting out new POP on a GM machine with GM tape and GM cards. I thought the whole thing stunk, but I witnessed in person.
Another question along the lines of the book signing and baseball signing: if you had a POP made for your car from original GM supplies on an original machine used by GM representatives, is that a "REAL" POP?

Simply put NO!!!

I like the way you think Dave. :scholar:

Documents
 

To date I have never charged anyone to help authenticate documents. That is not my business but I would say at this point I have gotten pretty good at it. If I cannot tell then I tell them I am not sure also.
There are many more methods to determine reproduction than most would know and that is also who items such as ECL codes will never be released.......

Paul

I agree Steve, so we think alike. At that time I had a '69 Pace Car (small block, stick) and we all were joking about how nobody would ever care about docs and such for a small block Pace Car. I could have had one of the "new" POP for free; I declined the offer.

Paul,

Joined this forum 17 years ago and watching this thread is painful. Some people go ape Sh*t when original documents surface on a particular car that has good reported provenance and then accordingly either hype the car or bash it depending on who owns it and where the politics fall and there is the risk in having an opinion because nobody wants to be fooled.

Let the market decide. If you change how you make these I would bet you are pretty much out of business pronto, and this would not be an issue if the titans of the hobby did not place a premium on "documentation" but they do- and as a result some guys want reproduction stuff for the cool factor.

Eventually the cheater is gonna cheat, and if the buyer cannot tell the difference that falls into "buyer beware" on the sale.

A couple of questions . . .

Would someone be willing to offer an opinion as to how much of an increase in value documentation adds to a A#1 car?

If a car is known to be what it claims like a Yenko Camaro but has no documentation, would having documentation raise it's value?

On a Yenko I do not believe it raises it's value a whole lot for the simple reason that the VIN's for the most part are known. The paperwork adds a lot of cool factor but the car is already known to be real.

In the case of say an LS6 Chevelle (ok, ok but it's what I know) I believe it can add as much as 20% or more depending on coupe of convertible. In the case of convertibles and especially Canadian documented cars it can add a WHOLE lot more as recently seen. These cars are just too easy (relatively speaking) to fake so paperwork pays a large part in it's value and therefore authenticity. I have many clients who will not even consider a non documented LS6 which is just one of the reasons why I am so passionate about 'real' paperwork, stamps and other identifying information on these cars.

Just to add Paul, I do not believe anyone is specifically putting you into a pool of thieves or dishonest people. That is based on all the positive comments you have received from many people including myself. You won't find too many of the other people doing similar work getting those compliments. I, like you have defend myself against all the unscrupulous restoration shops and thieves out there as I too sometimes feel like I am put in the same category as the others which is why I cannot bend the rules and have to practice what I preach.

Rick, Sometimes even a good guy can be put in the "bad pool" by mistaken opinions or a bad comment that gets repeated. I know that has happened to you too. Friendships are lost for no good reason really and suddenly you no longer get replies to PMs or emails. All you can do is keep trying to do the right thing. Like it or not, no matter what you do, you have no control over the opinion people have of you - it's strictly up to them. I've always been a believer that the truth is the most important thing - no matter where it comes from or where it leads. Sometimes it leads to bruises that never heal.

Verne

Verne, that sure can happen.
Honesty is and always has been the best policy. I live by the Golden Rule and know well and good that not all people do.
Rick, I have heard nothing but positive opinions on you and your work so your work ethics and reputation do proceed you.
Paul, the product and services you provide to the hobby are welcomed by many, and unfortunately used by others to deceive. I'd say keep up the good work and let the chips fall where they may (and I'd like to hear/read more about the watermark).

Well said Verne!!

^ great last couple of posts there.

Pretty simple guys just don't be the deceiver, you do realize that a collector car fraud case can be filed up to seven years after discovery. That means if you are involved in the food chain or produce these type documents you can be named in a law suit the rest of your life. Discovery can be three four five or more owners down the road. Deep pockets can name every previous owner in the suit, it is you that has to defend your butt and get your name removed from the law suit. These suits eventually find the individual perpetrating the deception.

Exactly why after enjoying your reproduction window sticker after years of ownership,you should tear it up @ the moment of selling your car.

Great post, Roy!