Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...img_0165_1.jpg
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...img_0163_1.jpg
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...img_0162_1.jpg

This Camaro was very well known in Western PA. A lot of the old school guys to this day remember Clem's "purple" Z/28. I know the Grabiak Family and we buy from them. A VERY well known hi-performance dealer to this day. I really cannot imagine why some 45+ years later, the original owner of the car and the selling dealer would care one bit, to all get together and fabricate a story for the new owner. It makes no sense at all. And why would they insist, in writing, that the car was ordered this way if it hadn't been. It would seem that most people do not care for the OE color, even Clem himself was disappointed with it. All the people I talked to at Mecum told me the car was gorgeous in person. For some reason I cannot explain, the people that were there at the inception of this car in 1968, when it was ordered, and the day it was received at Grabiak's are treated as if they didn't have a clue ...BKH

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

What is seen on the inside of the door is factory primer with very little top coat. We looked in several other areas with much better original paint coverage. All we saw was some form of silver paint. Had you been standing there telling me it was EO I would have laughed at you. EO is much darker than either silver mentioned.

I'm well aware of how the car was initially ordered. EO was not a current model year color. So Central Office contacts the dealer proposing a substitution. His wife worked there; says ok. Maybe never mentioned it. That car was ordered 47 years ago and there is no mention of EO on the original paperwork. The "paperwork" you have posted was done decades later. 47 years is long time. Look up #81 on AutoColorLibrary.com under '69 Oldsmobile-looks very similar to EO but in reality is much lighter. Maybe that's why the owner was disappointed?

None of you guys saw the original paint. We did.

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

Obviously I am not a "Camaro god" but I am not color blind either.. How can one dispute the original owner, photos & others from the time and area that remember the car.?. My point is maybe it wasnt EO put it wasnt Cortez Silver either.

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

Are you saying this was done decades later ? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...img_0165_1.jpg

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

Does anyone have period pics of the car from back in the day ?

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

I would have to say that not a single person here saw the original color except the original owner and Grabiaks. Of course Mrs.Z is now a prime suspect in this mystery. ..BKH

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

the paperwork is fake??? maybe I am wrong, but seems 'special paint' would mean more than just stripe delete . Are there any other examples of stripe delete cars w paperwork?? how is it worded on their paperwork???

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: resto4u</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If special paint was ordered and that color was not in the assembly plant, what was the process to get it to that assembly plant? depending on what year, some plants built other car bodies with the camaro. Then they might have the color already in the plant. special paint, did it have to be a color available that year from any gm family? </div></div>

Special paint process, per author/historian Eric White (originally written for discussion on a Pontiac forum):

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gtoric</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The procedure for getting a special-paint car ordered went like this:

• The customer (or dealership) determines what color is desired.

• An &quot;All Series Special Equipment&quot; order form is filled out.

The information required for a special-paint-request on this form is:
• Lower Color Paint No.
• Upper Color Paint No.
• Make of Car &amp; Year Paint Used.
I am guessing that obtaining the correct paint no. would be left up to the ordering salesman/dealership paint department.

In the '60s and early '70s, before colored plastic/fiberglass trim parts became common, any color paint could be ordered, as long as the dealer could supply the paint formula no. on the S.O. form. After the mid-'70s when the crash-bumper fillers became common place, special order colors were phased out except for large fleet orders.

Several codes were used on the Fisher Body trim tag to indicate a special-order paint. Codes varied between the years and between Fisher Body plants. Some of the codes used were:
1= Standard GM paint, not a Pontiac color
2= Special Pontiac color. Sometimes offered a half-year &quot;springtime&quot; color.
3= Cadillac FireFrost color. This paint was not normally allowed on a Pontiac build because of the special processes required to apply this type of paint.
4= Body in primer
SPEC or ** would indicate a paint color from a source outside GM (Ford, Chryco, AMC, John Deere, International Harvester, etc.) Colors could also be ordered to match school or business colors. As long as a formula no. could be identified by the dealership just about any color hue could be specified.

• The order was then routed through the Pontiac Zone office, which then routed it on to the Central Office.

• Central Office then entered a request to the paint supplier, usually PPG/Ditzler, for the appropriate paint.

• The paint supplier shipped a quantity of paint to the appropriate assembly plant.

• The special-order build was scheduled and coordinated between the Fisher plant and GMAD or Pontiac assembly.

• Build was delivered to dealership with a quart of touch up paint in trunk.
</div></div>

I have also seen a double &quot;&amp;&quot; (double ampersand) to designate special paint, on a Pontiac plant cowl data tag.

Most assembly plants have/had a special paint system, separate from the main line, where smaller paint pots could be loaded with low production volume colors, which would minimize the amount of waste when flushing the system. Typically these were done for fleet and special equipment runs (Grand Trunk RR, RCMP, Bell Telephone, etc). We also have had some plants were the special colors were run through the paint repair line rather than the main assembly process.

K

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

Looks lighter than EO to me but I see the purple tint.https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...3-29842-eo.jpg

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bkhpah</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
This Camaro was very well known in Western PA. A lot of the old school guys to this day remember Clem's &quot;purple&quot; Z/28. I know the Grabiak Family and we buy from them. A VERY well known hi-performance dealer to this day. I really cannot imagine why some 45+ years later, the original owner of the car and the selling dealer would care one bit, to all get together and fabricate a story for the new owner. It makes no sense at all. And why would they insist, in writing, that the car was ordered this way if it hadn't been. It would seem that most people do not care for the OE color, even Clem himself was disappointed with it. All the people I talked to at Mecum told me the car was gorgeous in person. For some reason I cannot explain, the people that were there at the inception of this car in 1968, when it was ordered, and the day it was received at Grabiak's are treated as if they didn't have a clue ...BKH </div></div>

So we have verbal testimony from the original owner, and signed/notarized letters from the original owner and selling dealership, and it is being disputed?

God help me. I don't stand a chance.

K

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

That is one Bad A$$ looking Camaro....Love it!


BIG

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

Just my own opinion!!!
How does any one dispute what the original owner stated???
From what I know from other corvette forums Clem is very well thought after, how can anyone dispute what he's states???

Just my thoughts

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

As to what Brian said earlier about the original owners/eye witnesses being treated as if they have &quot;no clue&quot;... The same exact thing happens to the Norwood factory workers today on many issues relating to historical production practices.

This is not isolated to entrenched positions on the originality of a specific vehicle as the same kind of bickering repeatedly happens when production artifacts are produced or information is disseminated that conflicts with the established group think on a topic.


It is sad that that is the way the hobby has become - if we could just work together there is much to be learned.

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

original owners have many times made errors about their cars... let's face it. It was many years ago... the original owner of one of my 67 Z's said he broke 10's in the quarter mile...

but I do not think this is the case here !!! possibly not OE, but I definitely believe it was some shade of light purple...

again jmho

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

Just a heads up to keep this civil.

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: William</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Look up #81 on AutoColorLibrary.com under '69 Oldsmobile-looks very similar to EO but in reality is much lighter. Maybe that's why the owner was disappointed? </div></div>


I believe this very well could have been the case.. And whos to say GM even called to confirm the change.. They could have made the change on their own to the Sunset Silver Metallic. But again the photos of the car from the time and the photos of the car before restoration it is clearly not Cortez.

http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/...psy6ertrey.jpg

http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/...psn0g3ixwh.jpg

http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/...pshbieklif.jpg

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

Ok so the owner orders Special paint in EO and somebody at the plant decides or intentionally orders the wrong paint?

Pictures fade over time and various factors come into play. The light will reflect off the car differently or car was dusty or dirty at the time of the photo. INMHO...

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

That looks like EO on the roof to me.

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

Simply giving another perspective.. And as far as I know SSM may be the same as EO and it was simply a name change.. IDK..

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

Gotcha

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

Nope. None of the paint we saw on that car even remotely resembled EO.

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

Not the greatest comparison but all I had to work with at the time..

http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/...pscuktiqne.jpg

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

Bingo... Looks like the chip.

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

I think the reason its a subject ripe for discussion is, &quot;the hobby&quot; or maybe the &quot;fluff&quot; this car has gotten now miraculously made it a 200k Camaro. Its no longer a run of the mill 60-80k restored car. It would be especially interesting to see how the body number lines up with the VIN, Can't imagine they'd break up the paint line without putting it on some kind of hold until they had the time to paint this ONE car purple.

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: watk69</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Can't imagine they'd break up the paint line without putting it on some kind of hold until they had the time to paint this ONE car purple. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith Seymore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Most assembly plants have/had a special paint system, separate from the main line, where smaller paint pots could be loaded with low production volume colors, which would minimize the amount of waste when flushing the system. Typically these were done for fleet and special equipment runs (Grand Trunk RR, RCMP, Bell Telephone, etc). We also have had some plants were the special colors were run through the paint repair line rather than the main assembly process.
</div></div>

Everything keeps right on flowing. Once the paint is loaded and the order is introduced to the production sequence they never miss a beat.

K

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/t...psdlft5ewb.jpg

http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/t...pswtscv6ca.jpg

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

Going back and reading through some of the Team Camaro thread; I noticed that the owner at the time and the one that paid to have the inspection done asked that it be looked at again but nothing more was mentioned.. Was there nothing more that could be done?


<span style="font-weight: bold">Just to be clear I am not picking on anyone or pointing fingers.. Just simply asking questions.</span>

http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/t...psuwwffmen.jpg

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/t...psa94e44a0.png

As for paint chips, don't make me laugh.

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

I have a hard time believing that the original owner made up a long story about how his wife wanted purple/EO and they specifically special ordered it and got it but didn't like it. What does he have to gain from all this, beside a little notoriety?

Just wondering, is EO a multiple stage paint process, like a base silver than a purple over? No idea how that color was painted, but wondered.

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

Just for comparison sake.

http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/t...pscotyxgti.jpg

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

Lighting, angles, and dirt will change the appearance of a color in a photo.

I gotta say the roof comparison with the chip is a deal sealer.

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

can you put the chip of EO and cortez silver against the roof without the white borders??? id be interested to see the difference then. Looks like the pics of the car now are under fluorescent lights... any pics of the car now in outdoor lighting???

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

What a joke. Here's some more paint chips for you. Any of these look real?

In case you didn't notice the finish of the car as restored doesn't match the OE paint in the roof photo.

The only &quot;deal sealer&quot; is the people who actually saw the car.

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/t...psd84c365c.png

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

BTW... Norwood Chevrolet side inspectors used paint chips to accept bodies from Fisher Body. Paint in smaller batches at Fisher Body was also hand measured and tinted by eye to a match with a chip.

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: iluv69s</div><div class="ubbcode-body">can you put the chip of EO and cortez silver against the roof without the white borders??? id be interested to see the difference then. Looks like the pics of the car now are under fluorescent lights... any pics of the car now in outdoor lighting??? </div></div>

http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/t...psnyx7s0ct.jpg

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW... Norwood Chevrolet side inspectors used paint chips to accept bodies from Fisher Body. Paint in smaller batches at Fisher Body was also hand measured and tinted by eye to a match with a chip. </div></div>


&quot;What a joke..&quot; Everyone knows these were cookie cutter and built by machines..!!.. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cook_dw</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: iluv69s</div><div class="ubbcode-body">can you put the chip of EO and cortez silver against the roof without the white borders??? id be interested to see the difference then. Looks like the pics of the car now are under fluorescent lights... any pics of the car now in outdoor lighting??? </div></div>

http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/t...psnyx7s0ct.jpg

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW... Norwood Chevrolet side inspectors used paint chips to accept bodies from Fisher Body. Paint in smaller batches at Fisher Body was also hand measured and tinted by eye to a match with a chip. </div></div>


&quot;What a joke..&quot; Everyone knows these were cookie cutter and built by machines..!!.. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif[/img] </div></div>

That was especially critical for those processes where the front clip was painted in a separate part of the plant (or in a separate plant on the other side of town) and were expected to match the body. Everything has to match the chip.

Otherwise it wouldn't matter.

K

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

Correct on all points. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

give it up as you and jerry have been caught in a big screw up. there no one in his right mind can come up with a good reason for me to claim a color the car was not. you guys are just trying to defend the indefensible.

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">give it up as you and jerry have been caught in a big screw up. there no one in his right mind can come up with a good reason for me to claim a color the car was not. you guys are just trying to defend the indefensible. </div></div>


Well stated, thank you.

Mike

Re: 1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint
 

I know that at the St. Louis Assembly plant the special order paint was prepared in small pressure pots and hand trucked to the paint line. It would be pure coincidence if the small batch matched any color chip. Does someone actually think that the <span style="text-decoration: underline">PRODUCTION</span> process included spraying test panels, running them through the oven, &amp; checking them against paint chips? No way - they mixed the paint according to the formula given (which may or may not have been correct)&amp; painted the job. I don't have a dog in the hunt, but people who I respect highly evidently do. So why not just conclude that the car got painted some color that we cannot identify for certain. It could have been intended to be EO, CS, SS - who knows for sure? The owner may have ordered EO and someone at the plant messed it up. Too bad that the owner/restorer didn't get consensus before the restoration was done.