Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

The purpose of the Pilot program was to functionally test all portions of the assembly process that were new for the new model.

The IBM card was key punched. That was then fed to the IBM 360 Model 40. This generated the downstream data feed to generate the body plate which the hobby calls the trim tag.

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

The builds designated as pilots were selected from a batch of already key punched IBM cards intended for regular early September production.

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

Kurt S asked the exact question I was going to ask. That car didn't have an emblem on the trunk when it was on Ebay so how did the owner install it because there shouldn't be access holes in the bottom of the decklid to install the nuts on a car supposedly built in May. The early August production cars didn't have emblems on the trunk from what I have been told. Maybe Kurt S or others can explain to me if I am right or wrong.

JT

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The builds designated as pilots were selected from a batch of already key punched IBM cards intended for regular early September production. </div></div>

Again, I'm not quite following this so I apologize as I try to follow the process. GM was building pilot cars in May 0f 66, regular production appears to have started in August as theres some 08A tags,and maybe some others before you get to 09B. How would there be at least 860 cars already que'd up in the order process as ready to build in May, when the car wasn't even announced for till July?

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

I have still photography of a gold pilot with a deckled with the emblem installed. While the photography does indicate which goldl L6 it is the location of the photograph by background structures is consistent with the initial destination of DD01D.

More importantly the decklid is as original as the owner could save. The strengthening channels on the trunk side had to be partially replaced because they were cut out to remove weight. The skin and the remaining infrastructure was saved.

The owner states he &quot; spent a fortune&quot; saving every piece of sheetmetal. &quot;Would have been a fraction of the price to replace with nos&quot;

Finally: original trunk lid had holes which were found during the restoration.

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mark_C</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The builds designated as pilots were selected from a batch of already key punched IBM cards intended for regular early September production. </div></div>

Again, I'm not quite following this so I apologize as I try to follow the process. GM was building pilot cars in May 0f 66, regular production appears to have started in August as theres some 08A tags,and maybe some others before you get to 09B. How would there be at least 860 cars already que'd up in the order process as ready to build in May, when the car wasn't even announced for till July? </div></div>

Validation of the planned production process requires data insertion that would exercise and verify that the support systems were &quot;in control&quot;. Meaning that they tested with production data elements that were planned for regular production so IBM cards that were already key punched were selected and used. The system was further validated with manual insertion of additional content to the build. (handwritten content)

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kurt S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I take it the decklid is not the original? Early cars didn't have decklid emblems. </div></div>

According to the owner the decklid is the original. </div></div>

Do you have a pic of the bottom side of the decklid?

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

I'm not following on the Fisher body date and number.

Norwood had been in operation for years, the tag system was the same.
I have early tag data from several other plants - I've never seen them make up data to try out the system on new model changeovers.

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

When any early/preproduction cars were later assigned Vins (as William noted in the CRG thread) and this example happened to end up w/ tag # 00001, is it known conclusively yes/no if hidden Vins were added then too?
As understood, this 00001 car when found was missing original metal where the hiddens would've been but it's hard not to wonder whether any were ever really added in the first place...someone would need to have been following the tag installer around w/ a gang stamp and digit kit also who spent the time removing obstructions for access to the areas to be stamped?
What of other existing early cars and any hiddens also the found original engine for this one, original Vin stamping or no?
[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif[/img]
~ Pete

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kurt S</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kurt S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I take it the decklid is not the original? Early cars didn't have decklid emblems. </div></div>

According to the owner the decklid is the original. </div></div>

Do you have a pic of the bottom side of the decklid? </div></div>

You want the pictures from where it was under restoration of after completion...after the pilot guys signed it? It was/is an early lid for sure...

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kurt S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not following on the Fisher body date and number.

Norwood had been in operation for years, the tag system was the same.
I have early tag data from several other plants - I've never seen them make up data to try out the system on new model changeovers. </div></div>

Kurt,

I really do not know what to add to the discussion at this point on this particular line of questions. I have explained this about 5 times all the same reasoning. The tag system was the same the computer generating it was new.

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PeteLeathersac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
When any early/preproduction cars were later assigned Vins (as William noted in the CRG thread) and this example happened to end up w/ tag # 00001, is it known conclusively yes/no if hidden Vins were added then too?
As understood, this 00001 car when found was missing original metal where the hiddens would've been but it's hard not to wonder whether any were ever really added in the first place...someone would need to have been following the tag installer around w/ a gang stamp and digit kit also who spent the time removing obstructions for access to the areas to be stamped?
What of other existing early cars and any hiddens also the found original engine for this one, original Vin stamping or no?

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif[/img]
~ Pete
</div></div>

On this car the alternate vin was actually found in four other places.......some were just last five digits. They were easily found when the car was disassembled and dry media blasted, but they weren't in the conventional assembly line places........

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You want the pictures from where it was under restoration of after completion...after the pilot guys signed it? It was/is an early lid for sure... </div></div>
Either one.

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kurt S</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You want the pictures from where it was under restoration of after completion...after the pilot guys signed it? It was/is an early lid for sure... </div></div>
Either one. </div></div>

Glad to assist Owner of the car is leaving for Hawaii.. I have requested the photos as soon as i get them i will post them up.

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

Still looking for date codes from the sheet metal - any YES they should have them. I believe Fisher Body should have date stamped just about everything. Even on a pilot car.

Alternator, distributor, cylinder head, engine block, transmission and rear axle should have date codes too. If not stamped assembly dates, then casting dates. These did not just appear out of thin air.

If you can't get the numbers, let me know the locations this car will be on display in the next year and I can look the car over myself.

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bcmiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Still looking for date codes from the sheet metal - any YES they should have them. I believe Fisher Body should have date stamped just about everything. Even on a pilot car.

Alternator, distributor, cylinder head, engine block, transmission and rear axle should have date codes too. If not stamped assembly dates, then casting dates. These did not just appear out of thin air.

If you can't get the numbers, let me know the locations this car will be on display in the next year and I can look the car over myself.
</div></div>

Boy this thread has epic potential for educational purposes moving forward...

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

Just trying to &quot;learn something new&quot;. So are you saying there are no date codes on any of the parts?

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

That's the whole idea of this &quot;hobby&quot; learn something new every day, put the pieces together as to how things were done back in the day.

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bcmiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just trying to &quot;learn something new&quot;. So are you saying there are no date codes on any of the parts?



</div></div>

The Body and the sheet metal parts on the car have no date codes as you would expect from the stamping plant. There were tags only Some of the tags were found.

I have pictures on the way to address some of the other questions. In a later post I will be more specific on the description of what was found on the car.

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

Here is the car in Detroit for its unveiling. More photos to follow shortly inc, deck lid as found.

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

Pictures Right side up this time..(hopefully)

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

The trunk lid as found. The race car modifications included removing the reinforcement ribs on the underside which was rebuilt and replaced on the original trunk lid skin.

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

More Detail:

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

The Car is exactly as I said it was. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/Charley.gif[/img]

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

Oh, come on now. Be nice. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bcmiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh, come on now. Be nice. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img] </div></div>

I am [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

Hopefully this doesn't offend anyone. I'm sure it will, but turrets won't let me stop....is it possible that with no hidden vins that it could be rebodied and only the trunk floor reused as evidence of it's history? That might explain the trunklid.

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: L72copocamaro</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hopefully this doesn't offend anyone. I'm sure it will, but turrets won't let me stop....is it possible that with no hidden vins that it could be rebodied and only the trunk floor reused as evidence of it's history? That might explain the trunklid. </div></div>

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/thumbsdown.gif[/img] it will only offend you when I have to waste more time posting pictures of the quarters being patched in.

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The early Pilots left the factory with no primary name emblems. The build at Norwood was called the &quot;F car&quot; only at that point. </div></div>

What did the emblems say then on the header panel and on the deck lid? I am talking about the pics posted that were in the original ebay auction that were supposed to be of this car when new. They clearly show emblems in those two locations.

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bcmiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The early Pilots left the factory with no primary name emblems. The build at Norwood was called the &quot;F car&quot; only at that point. </div></div>

What did the emblems say then on the header panel and on the deck lid? I am talking about the pics posted that were in the original ebay auction that were supposed to be of this car when new. They clearly show emblems in those two locations. </div></div>

Please post the pics you are making reference to so can elaborate...I want to be sure we are discussing the same images.

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

Phil. Any chance you could furnish the Social Security numbers of the older fellows in the parking lot? I'd like to quickly make sure they are who you say they are.
Please thank the owner for spending a 1/4 of a million dollars for our collective hobbie. I honestly appreciate the car being saved in such a well executed way.
I'd like to thank you personally for the thousand + hours you have spent researching the factory the proper and correct was and then putting it to ink for all posterity

Tom McGinnity

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

You included one above. But here are the two pics.

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

Leave this poor car alone! It's cool that someone found it and restored it as best as he thought necessary. If it was &quot;fake&quot; then the sniffers would expose it as such. If you had a financial interest in the car, as in buying it, then yeah, some kit-picking would be in order. This car is an interesting part of Camaro--and automotive--history. Relax and appreciate it for what it is.

The Internet is ruining the car &quot;hobby.&quot;

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

This car is historically significant and I appreciate that it's being discussed. I sense this thread is starting to get personal, so lets keep it on topic and informative.

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bcmiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The early Pilots left the factory with no primary name emblems. The build at Norwood was called the &quot;F car&quot; only at that point. </div></div>

What did the emblems say then on the header panel and on the deck lid? I am talking about the pics posted that were in the original ebay auction that were supposed to be of this car when new. They clearly show emblems in those two locations. </div></div>

I addressed this point a ways back in the thread:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jan,

That is a good observation. June 29 1966 was the official announcement date. The emblems for the header and the trunk easy to apply later. The fenders not so much. </div></div>


Now to expand on what I think the question is (Panther or Camaro?) I just watched the converted video of the pilots on display - and the header and the lid are both &quot;Chevrolet and camaro&quot; as you would expect for production.

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

Very neat, historical car. I believe it is what you say it is. I'm happy someone stepped up and restored it.
It certainly deserved it. I would not have left the weld seams like that but I respect the owners' right to
restore it as he saw fit. I have had to wrestle with certain decisions in the restoration of my own car.

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

Here is a pic of a 67 camaro trunk gutter[quarter]I owned Date code is last week June 66 [30th week]. Trim tag was a 08D and the vin and body number were around 30 and 80..... trunk lid and other sheetmetal was dated as well. Car was a gold/gold 3 speed on tree, 6 cyl

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

I think it's great the car was restored as the owner wanted. Look at the re-bodied super cars and pace cars. They caused a lot of debate the way they were done. I have no problem with the way this car was restored, just never thought about it being restored this way.
I have 2 questions.
Was the front subframe replace to the correct early version?
Should the rear light housing be black? In the early promo pics they look to be not painted.

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1967Z28</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Very neat, historical car. I believe it is what you say it is. I'm happy someone stepped up and restored it.
It certainly deserved it. I would not have left the weld seams like that but I respect the owners' right to
restore it as he saw fit. I have had to wrestle with certain decisions in the restoration of my own car. </div></div>

The decision to do the restoration as was done was by intent in anticipation of all the howls of &quot;rebody&quot; that were sure to arise upon completion.

2200 photographs were taken during the restoration.


[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif[/img] I appreciate your positive commentary and your ability to rise above the noise.

Re: Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening
 

what I think is cool, is the back of the raw rough trunk lid, it looks like they had some custom work done to get access to the emblem pins. There is just enough material left in those pictures as a clue (curved around the pins, not straight like the restored pic), that shows this car was unique, as if done by hand so you could put nuts on). I almost feel like they had to make the emblems work on a decklid that never had the cutouts for the emblems in the superstructure, because it was a pilot. But all that pilot info maybe was lost when they cutout the superstructure to make it a drag car. Very cool!

Love this car!