Re: 1969 Camaro L89 with JL8 option at Kissimmee
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Born30YrsLate</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...looks like you can have one now built for 20% of the auction price...
Ebay Ad Pics </div></div>

So let's just go <span style="text-decoration: line-through">steal</span> borrow all the pictures we can of someone else's black 69 Camaro and pretend that is what we can do ...

or maybe they DID build the car in question ... ???

Re: 1969 Camaro L89 with JL8 option at Kissimmee
 

Same thing I thought Jim.

They did not build it. I was curious and sent them this question: I noticed the first few pics are of the Jack O'Donnell L89 car that just sold at Mecum. Did you guys build that car?


Got this answer: That's a photo file. We have many pics of builds we have done. I just love that pic of the Camaro

Re: 1969 Camaro L89 with JL8 option at Kissimmee
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jireh Customs</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jannes_z-28</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the art world an auction house would be sure if the painting they sell is legit, it would ruin their name for ever if they sold a fake. And they would commit an illegal act. Apparently not a problem in the auto auction world...


Can't just about anybody call the FBI on this auction company, evidence in this case i clear.


Jan </div></div>
The auction companies all state clearly on the descriptions that all of the information is provided by and represented by the seller and not the auction. That way it keeps them out of the &quot;misrepresented&quot; trouble. </div></div>


Even so the auction company has a responsibility. I doubt that an art auction company could get away with that clause if they sold a fake painting of Picasso. And the same should apply here as well, they have obviously been participating in fraud here. A fake painting sold for less than this car would have stirred up a lot of fuss in the art business.


It could be simple for the auction companies if they asked the seller for a certificate of the car before entering the action. No certificate no sell.


Jan

Re: 1969 Camaro L89 with JL8 option at Kissimmee
 

Certificate? If that was the case there would be no cars going through the auction at all.

Who would certify the cars? What if a car came up as being fake down the line? How long would the certifier be accountable?

It is easy to throw out a solution like this but much harder to make it reasonable in the real world. All it would do is make real cars much more expensive in my opinion.

Jason

Re: 1969 Camaro L89 with JL8 option at Kissimmee
 

Barrett-Jackson has hired automotive specialists to do inspections before the cars go across the block. So they are actually taking action....

Re: 1969 Camaro L89 with JL8 option at Kissimmee
 

How about GM simply releasing their records? Problem solved.

Re: 1969 Camaro L89 with JL8 option at Kissimmee
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kurt S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barrett-Jackson has hired automotive specialists to do inspections before the cars go across the block. So they are actually taking action.... </div></div>

I wonder how they inspect the cars..and are the inspectors make/model specific?? With all the paperwork, this car could fool a lot of people.

I know some of the most renowned appraisal/certificate issuers have been bashed here for thier inspections.

..just think they are taking on liability and asking for more litigation... ???

Re: 1969 Camaro L89 with JL8 option at Kissimmee
 

The inspectors are retired or current law enforcement officers who are checking for obvious VIN issues like VIN swaps, bad rivets, non matching dash VINS when compared to the body VINs, etc. They do not certify car's as &quot;authentic&quot;. They are only checking for law violations in a rapid triage line during initial check-in.

When I was at Mecum Indy there was a couple rows of cars that were moved to the &quot;lot of misfit toys&quot; where they parked those cars that did not pass the inspections. One was a 69 Judge. Several street rods, too. But cars get through - there was a horrendous VIN tagged 1971 440-6 barracuda convertible with a real BS27V VIN tag that had it's body vin welded over with another body VIN section on top. The attempt was at least 3/8&quot; taller than the surrounding metal on the cowl. The dash VIN was held on with Home Depot rivets...

Re: 1969 Camaro L89 with JL8 option at Kissimmee
 

???..guy is looking for clear title and vin plate...WTF?

Re: 1969 Camaro L89 with JL8 option at Kissimmee
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: twertsy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">???..guy is looking for clear title and vin plate...WTF? </div></div>
I don't know the individual and can't speak for his motives, but probably this guy is not so much wanting to make a fake high dollar replica, rather, has bought a Dynacorn body and wanting to title it. It is getting almost impossible to find a good car body these days. Most stuff is used and abused. The thing to do especially if you are wanting a &quot;pro touring&quot; type car is to get one of these new bodies and build a car from that. The laws are clear about VIN tampering and putting a VIN on these new bodies is not the way one is supposed to go about it, but it happens all the time. Truthfully, it has been going on for years with old pre-war hotrod cars and the resurgence of the &quot;ratrod&quot;. I can't tell you how many guys I've seen build a Model A Ford, buy a title for it and there you have it. These young ratrodders don't even care if the title is for a Model A. They have titles for anything. One guy had a old T body and told me it is titled as a 36 Plymouth. Another, told me his A is titled as a 41 Chev P.Up. I read a few articles about insurance companies not paying, as you are insuring (you have to prove) that your car is what you say it is. It is a real mess. In a way, being a hotrodder myself, I don't blame some of these guys. They are not intending to defraud anyone, they just want to drive their hotrod. To do it legit, here, in Ohio, you are supposed to get your car inspected by the Hwy. Patrol(it takes a long time to get appointment too) and then have a builders title issued. The problem with that is they put you through hell as far as DOT stuff and can impound your car if there is a question about a part, not to mention, some don't go this route because some car shows you cannot participate, because they allow only cars of a certain age and older and even though it is obvious a car is an old one, with a builder title, it does not qualify for entry or prizes. Getting back to the Camaro. If these pedigree cars keep their status as investments, like coins, Rolex's and art, this forgery problem will persist. It is getting to a point that you have to spend more time proving what you have is real than it is worth to me.

Re: 1969 Camaro L89 with JL8 option at Kissimmee
 

One of the &quot;inspectors&quot; at BJ doing camaros and chevelles is an expert for those cars. He told me a year ago he was doing it and pretty excited to get the job. I think they are actually doing some authenticating

Re: 1969 Camaro L89 with JL8 option at Kissimmee
 

Same thing i heard from one hired by BJ. Not a leo, but a known certifier in the community. He didnt mention issuing any certs, but more looking for obvious issues on behalf of BJ. I wonder if he looked at this car as he is a Camaro specialist.

I would think this opens BJ up for more scrutiny as they possibly had the car looked at by an expert, and as a buyer Id want to know those results before bidding.

Rich

Re: 1969 Camaro L89 with JL8 option at Kissimmee
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yikes! Can you imagine how badly the broach would have been worn to create those broach marks? </div></div>

You mean to say how sharp the blades were...[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img] </div></div>

As Bergy noted, worn blades in the broach create &quot;furrows&quot; [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/thumbsdown.gif[/img], although not as bad as those in that photo; freshly-dressed or new blades leave hardly any broach marks at all. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]

Re: 1969 Camaro L89 with JL8 option at Kissimmee
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lynn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OH, and yes, great job getting pics Bill.

</div></div>

How could any potential buyer think that was an original block stamping? Looks like it was done an hour ago. Way too crisp and sharp.

Re: 1969 Camaro L89 with JL8 option at Kissimmee
 

Barrett Jackson has hired Jerry MacNeish (Chevrolet), Jim Mattison (Pontiac), Kevin Marti (Ford) and Dave Wise (Mopar).. to help verify cars

I personally saw first hand at this years auction a Blue 1970 Chevelle LS5 Convertible that was listed as numbers matching with documentation and after it was inspected the new description read RECREATION.

I think if the consignor list it as numbers matching with paper work the car get looked at a little more closely

Re: 1969 Camaro L89 with JL8 option at Kissimmee
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JohnZ</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yikes! Can you imagine how badly the broach would have been worn to create those broach marks? </div></div>

You mean to say how sharp the blades were...[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img] </div></div>

As Bergy noted, worn blades in the broach create &quot;furrows&quot; [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/thumbsdown.gif[/img], although not as bad as those in that photo; freshly-dressed or new blades leave hardly any broach marks at all. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img] </div></div>

I guess intelligent sarcasm can be taken the wrong way right John? [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif[/img]

The block is an obvious restamp and the surface looks prepped by a belt sander and hand files.

Re: 1969 Camaro L89 with JL8 option at Kissimmee
 

VIN derivative by oil filter:

Re: 1969 Camaro L89 with JL8 option at Kissimmee
 

Wow that's really bad.

Re: 1969 Camaro L89 with JL8 option at Kissimmee
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fast67VelleN2O</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow that's really bad. </div></div>X2,or too good....to be real.

Re: 1969 Camaro L89 with JL8 option at Kissimmee
 

Does <span style="font-weight: bold">anyone</span> know who bought this car?

PM me if you do.

Thanks.

This car was stolen in 1990!
 

Good evening everyone...

Hopefully some of you see this and we can get to the bottom of this fraud discovery together. I'm confident this could be the start of something very exciting.

Here's the quick run down on my discovery. By the way, this happened literally today.

I am a local law enforcement officer in Southern California and just this week purchased two project 1969 Camaros from a woman whose husband passed away two years ago here in Orange County, CA.

After meeting with her a few times last week before we struck a deal, we had shared various stories with each other in the process. During one of our conversations, she had mentioned they once had owned a 3rd Camaro; but it was stolen out of a parking lot circa 1990.

Any who, I didn't think much of it initially until reviewing some of the documentation in the stack of folders she gave me for my other 2 cars I purchased. As I flipped through the pages, I came across a couple documents related to another car with a different VIN. In her initial story, she mentioned their 3rd Camaro had been red in color. The document listed the VIN#124379N690139, a red 1969 SS 396 Camaro; dated 4/7/1990.

I still really didn't give it much thought until I turned to my friend while we were on the couch at my house and I loosely joked, "I wonder what will pop up if I Google their old VIN number on that car of theirs that was stolen 28+ years ago."

My mouth dropped as I looked at the results of my search. Well I'll be damned! There was their car! It was resurrected from the depths, painted black and given a fake history before crossing the Mecum Auction block at Kissimmee in 2014 and selling for a whopping $200,000!

During my search on Google, I also came across this very thread and was delighted to see 10 pages worth of criticism about the car's dubious history and suspect looking documentation.

I immediately called Mecum and left a voicemail for a gentleman who is supposed to call me back.

We HAVE to find out more about this car and bring justice to the last true owner of this Camaro! Any details about the vehicle's current owner would also be amazing!

Good job! Did you let the true owner owner know of this new discovery?

124379N690139 doesn't show up with a record in an NICB check......
Interesting, but would advise caution until it could be proven that was the car that the PO said was stolen.

Tim,

Right now I’m treating this as very preliminary. I notified the woman I purchased the 2 Camaros from of my initial findings on this 3rd Camaro they used to own and she will be going into the depths of her house in an attempt to find additional supporting documentation. Apparently, the car was stolen when her husband was on a road trip without her. I even joked with her and asked if it was possible that her husband gave her a false story and secretly sold the car while he was away and didn’t have the heart to tell her. But she was adamant that he wouldn’t have done such. However, she was confident he would NOT have had insurance on the car because he had a tendency not to have such on his play toys. Even though that sounds a bit moronic, I’m having to take it for face value. The other difficulty is she is unaware as to which agency would have taken the police report at the time as the car was being driven on a road trip at the time of its taking.

They owned the car for approximately 8-9 years throughout the 80s from about 1981/82-1990. Her husband restored the car himself at that time and it was red. Hopefully she can find me some more documentation and/or photographs.

With all of this being said...even if it was determined the car was NOT stolen (very unlikely based on her information), the black car being sold as an original with loads of supporting documentation definitely appears to be fraudulently sold as something it’s not.

Ryan

What docs do you have on the car in question? Is it just a police report that the car was stolen or ?? Great work nonetheless.

Darrell,

Right now, it is limited to only a few pieces of paper as it appears the paperwork was accidentally slipped into the two folders that were given to me for the two other Camaros I purchased from her. Mostly mechanic slips, etc.

However, the most interesting piece found so far is paperwork from an old (now defunct) auction house under the name of Donen-Hazard SPECTRUM Vehicle Auctions (Oxnard, CA) where it appears her late husband had made an attempt to sell the vehicle at one time. Based on the paperwork, the auction took place on Sunday April 8th, 1990. His vehicle was slated as Lot #425.

I've included some snippets of the paperwork showing the vehicle's description and VIN on the paperwork while cropping their information for privacy reasons.

Now clearly at this point, it's just an interesting story. I will gladly concede defeat if this new found discovery of mine gets debunked. However, at least initially, there appears to be no reason to believe the story so far is inaccurate.

When I spoke to his wife a bit more, she says it is entirely possible she may still have their original title for this vehicle buried in the paperwork. It may take some time, but I'll uncover as much as I can.

I think what makes this story more interesting than most is the fact that so many of you were speculative from the beginning on the accompanying paperwork that came with the car as it rolled through Mecum in 2014. Plus, the fact that car sold for so much dang money is also intriguing.

This is as much about getting justice for the last true owner of the car as it is for the current owner who unwittingly may have purchased a falsified car.

Correct and I agree with everything you have stated. I was just curious/hopeful the docs would have been a pop or dealer invoice etc. Unfortunately the info listed could be due to a paint change and the trim tag still code 10-10. Playing devils advocate. Though I doubt that was the case since this cars trim tag was/is fake.


Hopefully the gentleman's wife will find more important documentation about the car or better yet track the car from the state it was stolen to the first known state this car reappeared in.

I can assure you I will delve deeper into the story and uncover as much as possible if I find anything.

Is it sad that I'm more interested in the car she no longer has than the two I bought!? I guess it's the hunt for the truth that makes this exciting.

Hey, at least I got a 69 Z/28 and a 69 Pace Car outta the deal!

Nice! Start a new thread and post pics of those with info!!

Just posted a new thread regarding the other two Camaros :)

title
 

doesnt the owner have the TITLE?

In some other instances of stolen vehicles from back in the past - emerging years and decades later - the rightful legal previous owner received the car back in their possession. In most cases the car was in better condition (restored) than when it was originally stolen.

I hope she gets back a fully restored Black , Aluminum Headed upgrade .

The footsteps will lead right back to whomever re-tagged the car and fabricated the bogus history/documents.
That will take some explaining , and won't look real shiny to any investigator , even if that person wasn't involved with the actual theft 28 years ago. He won't be looking at an easy-out situation.

Even if what he did, had nothing to do with concealing previous theft, and was only based on profit margins, he's real deep in the ugly zone now.

No legalities on swapping a trim tag , or recreating fantasy documents , but probably a big Catch-22 when the car involved winds up having been stolen and a laundered title.

:youguysrock:

Mr707,

I’m working on that now with her. At this point it remains to be seen but you would think that she does. Given that, as many relationships are, the man’s hobby (and he’s now deceased), it may take her some time to uncover what we would need to help her. But as the story unfolds I will try to keep you all in the loop.

If you are talking about the current owner, yes, I am certain he has a title.

I can tell you that the Florida title was created from an "air title" acquired through Georgia, where they do not require titles on older vehicles.

Sending Ryan a PM.

I'm guessing Chevy Enthusiasts didn't have NCRS data available yet in 2013/2014 when this car was being offered/discussed .

If it were applied for now (NCRS), doubtful that it would come back showing Quinliin in Florida. That would be even more evidence stacked against the bullsquat.

Someone sure knew the legacy of Kenneth Wright well enough to exploit the hell out of his death. Very in-depth and highly executed fraud from start to finish. Jack-O will probably be getting another call or two about the car and etc ...

WoW

All of this information is very insightful. I can assure you that we will spend a vast amount of time trying to gather as much information as possible and take actions to remedy this to the fullest extent of the law.

It is so wonderful to see all of this information coming in. Some information has already come in privately that is very intriguing.

Thank you to both Lynn and Baron.

Lynn I will respond to your PM soon. Definitely going to connect.

maybe the california DMV has something.

Following.

I thought we had a popcorn smiley? I'm going to need some while following this thread.

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