Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

FYI,the only other restored SD coupe sold for 700K!I think the new owner has room to wiggle after the restoration.Tom

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

[ QUOTE ]
Whats the deal with the winning bidder ID? I was able to see the winners username last night, but now it is "protected", as are the winning bidders on all other ended auctions. What is eBay doing??
Steve

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Winning bidders i.d. was <font color="red">ccsi2000</font> , at least that's what showed up last night. It was the 0***0 just a while ago and I wondered the same thing. Can't blame him if he asked for a little protection.

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

Yeah, I was able to see his ID last night, but now it looks like ebay is blocking winners ID now too, because it is the same way on all ebay auctions.
Steve

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

That has been going on for a long time. I think their programming is catching up so it is sometimes hit and miss. Its nothing new.



Jason

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

FYI,I helped line up the original frontend and a original SD transaxle for it today so with Tiemanns help it WILL be what it once was.Im sure the mags will pick it up and the project will be great to watch.Tom

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

[ QUOTE ]
FYI,I helped line up the original frontend and a original SD transaxle for it today so with Tiemanns help it WILL be what it once was.Im sure the mags will pick it up and the project will be great to watch.Tom

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry, no original motor (which is practically impossible)the car wont be perfect.

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FYI,I helped line up the original frontend and a original SD transaxle for it today so with Tiemanns help it WILL be what it once was.Im sure the mags will pick it up and the project will be great to watch.Tom

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry, no original motor (which is practically impossible)the car wont be perfect.

[/ QUOTE ]

original motor in a S/S or AFX car is nearly unheard of. If it does have an original motor it wasn't run hard and didn't win many races or it was restamped https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif . Also, these early cars did not have partial VINS like the late 60's cars so there is no definitive way to determine originality in most cases. Non-original motors in this stratospheric realm does not hurt the car at all (imho) This car was bot right and will bring a ton when and if it resurfaces on the market (again imho) https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

[ QUOTE ]
Non-original motors in this stratospheric realm does not hurt the car at all (imho)

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 110%....especially when the car is as well documented as this one obviously is!

And kudos to Tom for already helping to line up the ultra-rare parts that this car needs https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

Some of the comments about this super rare AFX Tempest just make me laugh. On the Yenko site, more than any other site I can think of, has more super rare expensive cars in one place, yet we have people talking smack on this car. One of six! I have seen project Yenko's sell for more than this car all the time. And there are plenty of Yenko cars compared to the Tempest. A Yenko Camaro is basic Camaro other than a few small items. But this Tempest like most of the full on Factory Drag Cars of that era, are amazing feats of engineering. From the rare aluminum body parts, transaxles, special hi-po engines that never made it into production cars,etc this car seems like a bargain. I for one love the idea it will get restored to its former glory, by one of the best in the business. This may be the find of 08'..BKH

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

Totally Agree , this is one of thee best , if not THE BEST sroty in the past 5 yrs !!! Can't wait to follow it's resto, hopefully on this site !

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

The 68' Dana Camaro comes to mind..BKH https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

I have not talked to Stan since the auction ended.Question how the front end from a Michigan was in West Virginia and then sold by someone in Ohio to someone in FLA around 1979.Also if he ever blew up the original motor now rummered to be owned by someone.Still lots of unanswered stuff to unfold.And yes this car should be spoke in the same breath as the likes of a 69 T/A convert.There were actually 8 coupes but 6 white "production" cars.Tom

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FYI,I helped line up the original frontend and a original SD transaxle for it today so with Tiemanns help it WILL be what it once was.Im sure the mags will pick it up and the project will be great to watch.Tom

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry, no original motor (which is practically impossible)the car wont be perfect.

[/ QUOTE ]

original motor in a S/S or AFX car is nearly unheard of. If it does have an original motor it wasn't run hard and didn't win many races or it was restamped https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif . Also, these early cars did not have partial VINS like the late 60's cars so there is no definitive way to determine originality in most cases. Non-original motors in this stratospheric realm does not hurt the car at all (imho) This car was bot right and will bring a ton when and if it resurfaces on the market (again imho) https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

but you have to agree that if the original motor (which is rumored to exist) ends up with the factory body the price value WILL go up. this is common sense. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

I am confusd Now will the restoration include returning it to as built spec's or leave it as raced. Isn't it worth more and more well known as a drag car as it was the fastest car in 63????????????

Jim https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

This is amazing.....ya gotta love the PHS documentation and the great work of Pete McCarthy and his incredible book on the factory race Pontiac Super Duties.

I probably have this story a little wrong, so the Pontiac guys can chime in, but didn't one of these Tempest SD Coupes win the Daytona 200 mile Race of Champions, and maybe lap the second place car?? Then as the story goes, it was bought by Mercedes (or Porshe?), taken to Germany and reverse engineered, never to appear again??

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

This should be a really cool project to see restored. But I keep thinking that it doesn't look that much like a factory built race car. Is there really that much of the original car missing? Was there a roll bar in the car back in the racing days? Obviously the VIN will prove what car it is, but is looks like a very basic car the way it sits now. Did somebody swap a ton of parts over to the body and repaint it back in the day? Can't wait to watch this one. Great find! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

It's interesting to watch the ebb and flow of the hobby. Just a few years ago these factory race car got very little love. I almost had to beg someone to buy my fully restored Z-11. At that time you could sell a high end musclecar with a couple of phone calls. When I bought the car the owner also had one of these Tempests. It took him a long time to move that car. Out of his 40 or so cars it and the Z-11 would now be the first to sell but then they were near the last. I think that was about 7 years ago.

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is amazing.....ya gotta love the PHS documentation and the great work of Pete McCarthy and his incredible book on the factory race Pontiac Super Duties.

I probably have this story a little wrong, so the Pontiac guys can chime in, but didn't one of these Tempest SD Coupes win the Daytona 200 mile Race of Champions, and maybe lap the second place car?? Then as the story goes, it was bought by Mercedes (or Porshe?), taken to Germany and reverse engineered, never to appear again??

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the story in the Angeles / McCarthy book. It shows the Paul Goldsmith driven / Ray Nichels prepared "Daytona" LeMans as "dissapeared". Gotta extend the search to include Germany now. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

-----Go back thru the posts and I think you will read that the paint is mostly original. I have heard that Pontiac knew going in that their strange rear-end wouldnt have the durability and an axle and trans kit was made up by Pontiac. It is possible that this "kit" may have been first trialed in this car..........Bill S

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am confusd Now will the restoration include returning it to as built spec's or leave it as raced. Isn't it worth more and more well known as a drag car as it was the fastest car in 63????????????

Jim https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

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The look on Tiemann's mug might be worth something https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/shocked.gif
... otherwise go as-built all day long - transaxle's a pretty key ingredient.

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

[/ QUOTE ]

but you have to agree that if the original motor (which is rumored to exist) ends up with the factory body the price value WILL go up. this is common sense. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, if there was another Stan Long SD Tempest and this one finds its born-with motor. Unless, of course, the one with the replacement engine has a cooler history ...

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

This original motor stuff seems funny to me considering it's a historic race car. If you found Jenkins' original "Grumpy's Toy" 69 Camaro in this condition would you say it "could never be perfect" because it no longer had the 396/375 it was delivered from the factory with? I know I wouldn't.

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

The org. motor won't make it worth any more. The quality of the resto will determine the value.

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

[ QUOTE ]
The org. motor won't make it worth any more. The quality of the resto will determine the value.

[/ QUOTE ]

disagree. its like having a 2 identical COPO's sitting side by side. both restored pristine by the same shop. one has the original motor the other has a factory replacement. GUARANTEE at auction the original motor car goes for more jack.

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

Wes, what I think they are saying is that this is a one of 6 race car...not a one of 200-300 COPO...

Race car engines didn't last long...and if they did...there was something wrong! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Wow...!
 

2008...the year of the barn find!

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

if you have 2 cars and neither have the original motors what does it matter?If there are 5-10-15 cars in the USA to chose from I agree but when there are only 2 cars in the country NBD.JMHO,Tom

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

[ QUOTE ]
This original motor stuff seems funny to me considering it's a historic race car. If you found Jenkins' original "Grumpy's Toy" 69 Camaro in this condition would you say it "could never be perfect" because it no longer had the 396/375 it was delivered from the factory with? I know I wouldn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, if I had Richard Petty's 64 Plymouth that won the Daytona 500 and had a 67 Hemi motor in it, but had the chance to own the original motor (which Petty had junked out behind the raceshop) the answer to your question is pretty obvious.

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

Tom, I have seen some of your cars at the local car shows over the years and it seems that if there is anything exotic in the Pontiac world you are the go-to guy. How did you aquire all this knowledge, all those parts and those great cars?
Mark Sheppard

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

thanks for the kind words,just about 46 years of being a pontiac fool.I raced with Jess Tyree for a couple years and then on my own.I have always kind of been attached to the early 60s SD stuff and as many on this site know networking and keeping stuff in your"hip pocket" for a day you or a "right guy" might need it comes in handy.I then crossed over to the dark side of the unobtanium of the 69-70 RA V tunnel port stuff.Tom

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

[ QUOTE ]
This original motor stuff seems funny to me considering it's a historic race car. If you found Jenkins' original "Grumpy's Toy" 69 Camaro in this condition would you say it "could never be perfect" because it no longer had the 396/375 it was delivered from the factory with? I know I wouldn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes Joe Im with you.A race car and its history is the important part of the car. I dont beleive that any race cars
have the original motor.
Peter

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

I've seen Tom's Trans Am in person (at the Pavillions) and it was a really nice car!

The knowledge on this site never ceases to amaze me https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This original motor stuff seems funny to me considering it's a historic race car. If you found Jenkins' original "Grumpy's Toy" 69 Camaro in this condition would you say it "could never be perfect" because it no longer had the 396/375 it was delivered from the factory with? I know I wouldn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes Joe Im with you.A race car and its history is the important part of the car. I dont beleive that any race cars
have the original motor.
Peter

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the rare hemi-powered Sox&amp;Martin cars were delivered to them as a "body in white" shell. They then cannibalized a real car to add the trim pieces to it, so it's not like they ever had an "original engine." I remember seeing a vintage 1970 magazine article years ago (maybe Hot Rod) that showed them building their 1970 Pro Stock hemicuda. They had a body in white next to a brand new hemicuda and they were stripping the street car to add the parts to the race car. The engine in the street car was just another hemi to add to the arsenal of engines in the back room.

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

The 71 Sox &amp; Martin HemiCuda was delivered as a body-in-white.

sixtiesmuscle...are you out there? I am sure Mike can educate all of us on this particular car.

BA

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

If it were mine (ha ha, like I could ever afford that), I would restore it to "as-raced" condition, with the big car rear axle, graphics and all, and have the original transaxle, torque tube, bellhousing, etc., restored and sitting beside of it, just like it would have looked in Stan's shop the day he completed all the alterations!!

IMO, if the other car is already restored to as-delivered condition, then doing this one as-raced and then showing both cars together (along with the removed parts) would be an absolutely incredible display. (Why have the two of them identically restored??)

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

I think the owner and Tiemann will decide what to do for history sake.Maybe even a hybred,luvered hood with scoop and lettered up as Stan raced it but with the trans axle under it?Time will tell.Tom

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

this story made the fox news this morning

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

Is this picture of this car by any chance????
http://www.vv4you.com/DRAG/4D.jpg

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is this picture of this car by any chance????
http://www.vv4you.com/DRAG/4D.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

SUNDAY, SUNDAY, SUNDAY at Detroit Dragway .... see the Ramchargers versus the Bounty Hunter ...

wow that picture sure brings back memories ...

Re: WOW! The Find of a Lifetime! 1963 SD 421 Tempe
 

I believe that car was raced by George DeLorean