Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

Seeing reproduction RAIV, 455HO, or W-30 heads doesn’t really surprise me, especially considering the parties involved. The entire Musclecar world is being reproduced! Being a Pontiac guy, I'm grateful we have PHS to authenticate a car. The reproduction of RAIV or 455HO heads (I guess the SD455 heads can't be far behind) will now allow people to clone all sorts of rare Pontiacs. However, it all goes back to the PHS documentation to see if it’s real. Unfortunately, because PHS is considered THE final word in the Pontiac community, we now have people that forge PHS invoices. They can take a 1969 Lemans invoice, scan it into their computer, change or add option codes, order up a forged trim tag, and voila, instant RAIV Judge! By adding repro RAIV heads into the equation, it just adds another element of doubt when trying to purchase one of these rare cars.

As more and more perfect clones appear, the prices for the authentics will go down, and it will damage their value. We’ve already seen a slump in prices in recent months for authentics (the Hemi cars are way down), and I believe it’s directly related to the fact that more and more clones are flooding the market. The supply and demand chain for authentics has shifted to the point where it’s now a buyer’s market. Granted, there will always be a market for those that seek true authenticity, and will be willing to pay 6 figures. But as more and more rare parts get reproduced (W-30 intake, W-30 heads, etc), and more and more perfect clones appear at auction houses, the demand (and prices) for the authentics will go down.

As we all know, there is a huge market for those wanting to purchase a car that is, mechanically and cosmetically, a perfect copy of a rare and desirable Musclecar, and for half the price of the real-deal. I believe it’s this segment of the market where these repro heads will fit in. Cars with somewhat questionable history, or cars that are flat out forgeries, will now be able to add another element of doubt as to their cars authenticity.

In my opinion, I would think that anyone with a true documented 70-72 W-30 car (or a 69-70 RAIV GTO or Firebird, or a 71-72 455HO car) that’s going through a full restoration, but are missing their original heads, would want to find original factory heads, and would not be interested in these repros.

So for Olds owners, I understand their concern about the W-30 heads being reproduced. With a forged trim tag, phony documentation, restamped block, reproduction W-30 heads, intake, hood, fenders, and air cleaner, counterfeit W-30’s are becoming as common as 1969 Z/28’s. To buy a real W-30 car nowadays, you almost need a hire a private detective to trace the owner history, conduct interviews with close relatives, perform lie detector tests, and while you’re at it, hire someone to perform metallurgy tests on the trim tag and VIN plates to see if they’re truly 35+ years old. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif It’s really out of hand now, which is why I believe the market is softening for authentics.

Hey, I just received the new Musclecar Enthusiast Magazine, which has excellent articles (written by the very under appreciated Paul Zazzarine) on the 1966 L-69 442, 1966 W-30 442, and the 1966 Track-Pak W-30, all of which utilized the very rare, one year only Olds Tri-Carb intake.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/66-1966-O...sspagenameZWDVW

Now where’s my reproduction chrome 1966 Tri-Carb W-30 air cleaner? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

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Now where’s my reproduction chrome 1966 Tri-Carb W-30 air cleaner? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

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They'll be along shortly. Number stamped, between 1 and 154, for an extra charge no doubt.

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

Hi Mike,

Fantastic post-very well said. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/cool.gif You and I both realize first hand what a problem this has become among the Oldsmobile community. It is very sad when all the money got involved with the hobby-so did all the dishonesty. It really has ruined it. Like you said money truly is the root of all that is evil. Oh well, I think I will just stick to Frankenstein heads from here on out. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif

Take care!
John

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

quote]


As more and more perfect clones appear, the prices for the authentics will go down,



Huh ?????????? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif If anything all the cloning has made the authentic cars even more valuable. Just because there are numerous replicas available of Leonardo Da Vinci’s painting of Mona Lisa (I guess I’m to believe that the original is worthless). I think it might be time for a bit of a reality check stealthbird and ho455. The cloning of both the W-30 and LS-6 rags especially has made the authentic cars invaluable. Because of the smaller & smaller crop of true documented 30s and LS-6 cars that exist today we have seen the prices skyrocket as of late. When I flew into Illinois for the fall Mecum auction, the one LS-6 vert that was offered had bids of over 400K and the reserve was still on. P. Klute paid 400K at recent auction for black/tan 1970 RAIV 1970 Judge vert. The current HMM GTO Judge vert cover car would pull even more. The only fully documented W-30 rag I have seen recently for sale was sold during the Olds club Nats. It was an original 1970 red /black four speed car. It looked like it came out of the grave and was in need of a complete resto but still sold for 360K. There have been other 30 rags w/4spds in perfect condition with docs that have sold for a whole lot more coin. LS-6, W-30 and RAIV Judge coupes with documentation routinely sell for above six figures. So if the market is softening for authentics, I sure haven’t seen it!!!

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

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Hi Mike,

.... Like you said money truly is the root of all that is evil....
Take care!
John

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Correction: It is the 'LOVE of money that is the root of all evil'!

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

[ QUOTE ]
It was an original 1970 red /black four speed car. It looked like it came out of the grave and was in need of a complete resto but still sold for 360K.

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sounds like somebody had a ton of money to hide from Uncle Sam. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

The car shown at the Olds nats had been listed on ebay. The owner pulled the listing and displayed the car at the Olds Nats. He then took the car home to Chicago.
The highest price I know of for a 1970 W-30 Rag with 4 speed is $225,000.
If anyone know of a higher recent sale,let me know.

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

RM Schimel

I agree that there have been private sales of Oldsmobile 442 W-30 convertibles and LS-6 Chevelles with ironclad pedigrees for large amounts. If you look at my earlier post we are on agreement on this subject. But where I am having a big problem is when unscrupulous people knowingly set out to make a car something it is not with the sole intent to defraud another person. That is why I am upset with all these reproduction Oldsmobile parts such as D, F and H cylinder heads, as it will make the ability to create super accurate clone W-30s that much easier to make.

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

------I think that red W-car was the one discovered in Port Huron,Mi. I heard about it fairly early on and was offered the car for 65 Gs. I had no idea of 70 W30 4spd vert values (I guess I do now) and said I wanted a day to think about it. The day time period was agreed to but not honored and the seller sold it for app. $80,000. Matter of fact the day period was not honored by about 22 hours as I called back in two hours to buy it and it was sold. To say I no longer do trust that seller would be a humungous understatement. By the way,,,It was missing only the original tires, battery, and a hose or two,,,,thats it!!!!!!.........Bill S

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

I see a few people mentioned 'transmission tags'. Has anyone moticed on ebay that the 'Parts Place' has several codes available?I think it's great that the'Parts Place' has taken on reproductions of parts the other suppliers won't take the chance on.