Re: Missing COPO in Hot Rod magazine?
 

Here we go again? Nothing but criticism, people tell me I should not even pay attention to this forum but for some reason I keep coming back. For the record can one of you that has already posted to this thread tell me how the MSO system works? When a MSO is generated? Who Generates it and how NICB receives the data?

Now for the overspray, Mr. Nelson was the only guy in this post that I felt came close to being acturate. There is not absolute facts regarding overspray. It depended on the operator of the gun. Some were heavy and some were light.

As For Mr. Colvin and the GM Heritage Center. The owner supplied the thank you language to SEMA. Mr. Colvin did nothing other than discuss the car with me a year ago. Several phone conversations took place attempting to determine dates of components etc.., DO NOT interupt this as anything else. The owner simply wanted to thank him for time spent, nothing more or less. Other documents on the car will come out.

Re: Missing COPO in Hot Rod magazine?
 

-----I guess I could ask you then, Jim, why no cowl induction hood and air-cleaner??? Was it owner preference??? I could understand and agree with that, although I still would say that the factory didnt put it together that way.
-----You are right as far as my criticism goes. I did say what I felt about the overspray and the hood. I should probably say at this juncture that you appear to do good resto work from the few pics I have seen. The overspray added is a subjective thing. I think theres too much there, and that seems to be the general consensus, but you dont and you have every right to that opinion.
-----My other opinion on the matter is that it wasnt bashing, but simply information of the kind a lot of us look for and learn from every day on this forum. I am sorry if you choose to look at as bashing. Have a good holiday......Bill S

Re: Missing COPO in Hot Rod magazine?
 

The Manufacturers Statement of Origin [MSO] is generated by the firm producing the vehicle. It is in effect a title sent to the dealer of record and NICB. Back in the day it was probably in the paperwork the new owner took to DMV to title and register a car. As stated some race cars were never registered and could be "on MSO" forever. These days the buyer never sees it as most states now require the dealer to immediately title & register vehicles upon purchase. Point is no car got out of Chevrolet without an MSO. They did sell cars Engineering used for evaluation; the Pete Estes '68 Z/28 convertible is probably the best known and had considerable documentation to back it up. The '67 and '69 Indy 500 track cars are also well documented examples. As I stated, back in my COPO tracking days I did many title/registration searches. To conclude anything about a 41 year old car showing no registration history [as you seem to have] is folly. Back in '69 some states did not title cars; some registered them by county-there was no state-wide system. Cars that go unregistered for a few years are deleted from the system.

Chevrolet has insisted for many years that it has no build records at all prior to 1977. How the GM Heritage Center was able to verify your car is of considerable interest to many Chevrolet muscle car owners.

As for the car itself there were errors made in the restoration. I posted a photo of an excellent example of factory engine paint-how can there be overspray along the sides of the intake when the entire top of the engine was covered during paint? I was in the parts end of the business for 15 years; we had dozens of used HP aluminum intakes and I have seen hundreds more in the last 35 years. I have never seen more than a very slight amount on either end. How 409s with painted rocker covers may have been painted doesn't apply.

No one has stated you car is not what you claim it to be. Unfortunately the hobby has become inundated with fake body & VIN tags, re-created "aged" paperwork, re-stamped drivetrains and all sorts of fast-buck types making claims. Completely fake cars have been sold and are now in litigation. The audience has become quite jaded as you can imagine. Making claims about a historic provenance of ANY muscle car requires more than you have shown.

For my part in offending you I apologize. Let's see what you've got.

Re: Missing COPO in Hot Rod magazine?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The Manufacturers Statement of Origin [MSO] is generated by the firm producing the vehicle. It is in effect a title sent to the dealer of record and NICB. Back in the day it was probably in the paperwork the new owner took to DMV to title and register a car. As stated some race cars were never registered and could be "on MSO" forever. These days the buyer never sees it as most states now require the dealer to immediately title & register vehicles upon purchase. Point is no car got out of Chevrolet without an MSO. They did sell cars Engineering used for evaluation; the Pete Estes '68 Z/28 convertible is probably the best known and had considerable documentation to back it up. The '67 and '69 Indy 500 track cars are also well documented examples. As I stated, back in my COPO tracking days I did many title/registration searches. To conclude anything about a 41 year old car showing no registration history [as you seem to have] is folly. Back in '69 some states did not title cars; some registered them by county-there was no state-wide system. Cars that go unregistered for a few years are deleted from the system.
Chevrolet has insisted for many years that it has no build records at all prior to 1977. How the GM Heritage Center was able to verify your car is of considerable interest to many Chevrolet muscle car owners.

As for the car itself there were errors made in the restoration. I posted a photo of an excellent example of factory engine paint-how can there be overspray along the sides of the intake when the entire top of the engine was covered during paint? I was in the parts end of the business for 15 years; we had dozens of used HP aluminum intakes and I have seen hundreds more in the last 35 years. I have never seen more than a very slight amount on either end. How 409s with painted rocker covers may have been painted doesn't apply.

No one has stated you car is not what you claim it to be. Unfortunately the hobby has become inundated with fake body & VIN tags, re-created "aged" paperwork, re-stamped drivetrains and all sorts of fast-buck types making claims. Completely fake cars have been sold and are now in litigation. The audience has become quite jaded as you can imagine. Making claims about a historic provenance of ANY muscle car requires more than you have shown.

For my part in offending you I apologize. Let's see what you've got.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the above is correct. I will correct a couple of details.
Today it is called an manufacturers statement of origin(MSO) back in the day it was a maufacturers CERTIFICATE of origin (MCO) I am not sure what year it made the name change.
It is not the "title" to the dealer but rather EXACTLY what the name implies and is the doucument of ownership to the dealer from the manufacturer. It is the FORERUNNER to the first title (or registration) depending on the state. There were and are several states that are non title states and use a registration only to transfer ownership.
As I stated previously, if the buyer had no intention of driving the car on the street there was no reason to pay for a title application or license and the dealer would simply pass the MCO to the buyer.
Yes, dealer paperwork was typically held in folders in the bookkeeping office of the dealership. The buyers never had any reason or legal right to see those documents including MCO, dealer invoice, shipping paperwork, etc. The only thing that the law covered regarding new car paperwork/potential buyers was the Maroney window sticker which is required to stay on the cars window until the new owner takes legal pocession of.
I do not know if back in the day MCO info was reported to the NCIB, as the NCIB was created by the insurance industry for reporting of information regarding STOLEN cars and I don't THINK that all vehicle info was reported to them from the manufaturer.

Re: Missing COPO in Hot Rod magazine?
 

The NICB records are nearly 100% complete back through '62. '61 is a little sparse. Every MSO (or MCO) was sent to them. I found my '62 (through a police friend when it was easier) and it was never stolen or salvaged. That's how I verified the original selling dealer of my car.

And I apologize to everyone who thinks I was bashing or posting non-appropriate historical information regarding overspray. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Missing COPO in Hot Rod magazine?
 

[ QUOTE ]
And I apologize to everyone who thinks I was bashing or posting non-appropriate historical information regarding overspray. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

No need to apologize Verne. You are entitled to your opinion just as I and anyone else is. Without two different opinions we would never learn anything new or correct from supposed so please continue to add your comments! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif

Re: Missing COPO in Hot Rod magazine?
 

[ QUOTE ]
-----I guess I could ask you then, Jim, why no cowl induction hood and air-cleaner??? Was it owner preference??? I could understand and agree with that, although I still would say that the factory didnt put it together that way.
-----You are right as far as my criticism goes. I did say what I felt about the overspray and the hood. I should probably say at this juncture that you appear to do good resto work from the few pics I have seen. The overspray added is a subjective thing. I think theres too much there, and that seems to be the general consensus, but you dont and you have every right to that opinion.
-----My other opinion on the matter is that it wasnt bashing, but simply information of the kind a lot of us look for and learn from every day on this forum. I am sorry if you choose to look at as bashing. Have a good holiday......Bill S

[/ QUOTE ]

No cowl induction hood or other ZL2 equipment? Does it have the appropriate cowl induction wiring hole above the fuse box?

Where are the pics of this Camaro, I haven't seen but one.

Re: Missing COPO in Hot Rod magazine?
 

There was a small write-up with a photo of the body in restoration in a recent issue of Hot Rod.

This reminded me that someone has docs showing Chevy Engineering acquired a production '68 Camaro SS. They installed a B-body L72 engine and submitted it for for emissions testing. No one knew what became of it. Maybe this was the same deal; wasn't built as a COPO. I'd like to see what the GM Heritage Center has on it.

If you had contacts at Chevy back in the day you could buy some of their styling/engineering cast-offs. Local beer magnate Augie Pabst managed to buy the "Cherokee" '67 SS-RS show car complete with Weber carbs. I asked him about it at the RA Vintage races a few years ago. He said no one could get it to run right so they put a Holley on it. Car is still around-has a clear plexiglass hood panel ala ZR1 Corvette.

Re: Missing COPO in Hot Rod magazine?
 

I hate to dig up an old thread but I found this one while researching the green Dick Harrell car in that other thread last night. I heard at a show recently that this car has been found to be a Z-28 sold by Yenko Chevrolet, and not a big block car as it is portrayed. The guys that told me this said the car was a Hugger Orange Z-28 that had a Yenko badge on the rear panel only as the guy that owned it was part owner of a drag strip in Tennessee where the car was located. They say that the car is well known in the Nashville area as "the Yenko Z". Anyone else heard this? I would have figured if this car was truely a prototype with docs that Cliff would have bought it up to go with his gold car.