Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

Persistance pays! You don't give up easily that is for sure.

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

While my subscription copy still hasn't arrived, I went to Borders last night and found the December 2010 issue of Hemmings Muscle Machines on the newstand. They have the car featured in the Restoration section and Part I is six pages long. I believe Part II will be in the Jan issue. It was cool to see the car finally in print (other than the 6-year-feature here)
[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/youguysrock.gif[/img]

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/burnout.gif[/img]

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

NJSteve, I got my copy last week; nice write up on a great restoration. Congrats!

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

As it should be! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/headbang.gif[/img] [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/headbang.gif[/img]

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

Well deserced Steve!

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

Congrats Mac! Well done. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img] I 'spect it will be running for about 17 editions to cover your restoration! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/whistle.gif[/img]

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

Congrats Steve! I received my HMM last Saturday, and it's a very nice write up on your project. I also thought it was pretty cool that at the end of the article, they actually print a link to this forum, and this thread, for more info!

Such a great looking car! The 72 Trans Am, with the honeycomb grilles and honeycomb wheels, is just a beautiful combo.

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/Can-I-Have-It.gif[/img]

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

Got the proportioning/combination valve back from one of the Performance Years website members, 70RAIII (Bill Oxley) who did a really nice job rebuilding it. He indicated that it was all stuck inside, so it wasn't really functioning as anything other than a T-fitting between the front and back fluid routes. Now it's actually working as designed, which is a good thing since if I recall correctly, one of the critical roles of this valve is to internally shift and block the internal passages if one circuit springs a leak and loses fluid. That way you still have braking power for the remaining circuit.

Another thing I noticed is that the purple DOT 5 silicone brake fluid turns yellow after a few years. Even the leftover, half a bottle I still had on the shelf, turned the same yellow. I'd imagine that means it's time to replace it all, which I did. I flushed the entire system and replaced it with new DOT 5 silicone brake fluid, about four bottles worth, to get all the old stuff out and completely flush the system of the four year old fluid.

The newly refurbished proportioning/combination valve, just back from Bill Oxley:

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/r...b/S7005982.jpg

And after the installation and the brake bleed-a-thon:

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/r...b/S7005983.jpg

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

Great Article and a great job on the car.........Congrat's Steve............

Ken

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

Thanks! I've been trying to put some miles on the car before winter. Started the whole project when the car had 114,163 on it. Put about 80 miles on her today and finally got the odometer to 115,000, so thats about 850 miles on the car since finished. Another 150 or so before the magic 1,000 mile mark. Plugs are still burning perfectly clean.

The one thing I've learned about Pontiacs is that they are very cold-natured when it comes to needing a warm up. You really have to let this car warm up to operating temperature before driving it. Once that choke pull off engages, she's good to go, but very cranky if you try to drive her before she's ready.

I've also finally run out of little noises and bugs to get rid of, from the squeeking front shock bushings, to the tach reading wrong, to the lean secondary rods and bad accellerator pump, to the steering column/clutch rod ringing, to the bad o-ring in the proportioning valve. I guess it never really ends.

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

BTW, I did actually notice that the TCS system works. I was sitting in the driveway after returning from the Sunday drive and was just shifting through the four gears and reverse, with the clutch engaged. When I put the shifter into fourth, the rpms dropped by several hundred. Pulled it out of fourth and the rpms rose back to the idle position. Very interesting. I guess in fourth, they didn't want any vacuum advance, so once it hits fourth gear the vacuum signal gets interrupted by the TCS solenoid.

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

Spoke with Dave from the Performance Years website (necb3) who has the 72 4-speed T/A that parked with me at the MusclePalooza show back in September. He mentioned that my TCS emissions system seems to be running backwards. I checked the manual and he was right.

This was from page 6D-9 of the 1972 repair manual:

&quot;TCS solenoid energized, providing no vacuum advance in all transmission ranges but high gear during normal operating temperature (between 85 degrees and 220 degrees).&quot;

&quot;TCS solenoid de-energized, allowing for full vaccuum advance in high gear during normal operating temperature and all modes of transmission operation. (below 85 degrees and above 220 degrees).&quot;

So I checked the wiring and it turns out I had the two-prong wiring clip hooked up the wrong way, of the two possible ways to connect it to the TCS solenoid. So I flipped the wiring terminal over and reconnected it.

The good news is that the TCS then worked properly as designed.

The bad news is that the engine ran like crap with no vacuum advance within the above factory parameters. Couldn't even get the car out of the garage for a test drive.


What the heck were they thinking back then? I guess it was their drastic attempts at making these monsters somehow emissions friendly. Gotta love the early 1970s - the engineers figured if they could make the tailpipe emissions somehow cleaner, then all was wonderful in the world. They didn't care that the cars barely ran, they just had to make the EPA happy and the customer be damned.

Anyway, I rerouted the vacuum line from the carb T directly to the distributor and then reset the timing as per another 455HO guys' recommendations (Lloyd: 12 degrees initial with the vacuum disconnected and plugged). The car definitely picked up some power and wasn't falling so flat in the upper mid-range anymore. Currently waiting on some new jets and primary rods to arrive.

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

So the carb may have been setup properly before?


Jason

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

No, the 72 HO carbs were jetted extremely lean from the factory, too lean in fact to get any real power, it seems. I just happened to actually hook up the wiring wrong on the TCS solenoid, which ended up producing more power than stock to begin with by giving vacuum advance in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gears. Sort of like going directly to step 3 and skipping steps 1 and 2 of disconnecting the TCS and rerouting the vacuum advance hoses, when looking to improve performance.

The richer secondary rods helped the WOT performance. The guys over at the Pontiac site who are very familiar with the low compressions 71 and 72 HO engines are passing along most of their little secrets. I have a couple pairs of jets and primary rods on their way, for me to experiment with.

Each little tuning trick seems to be helping the performance measurably. By next spring it should be running a bit strong(er). [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/burnout.gif[/img]

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

It's been an eventful couple of days here! Nothing seems to be easy lately. DAMN GREMLINS!

After I did the jet and rod swap, I reinstalled the carb and took it for a ride: it felt good but started popping at 4,000 rpm. Thought it was a jetting issue until I got home and sat there idling and it then idled down to zero and wouldn't restart, just cranked with no spark.

Typical! So I swapped in a brand new extra set of Accel points since the ones in the distributor looked fried...again. (Unfortunately, I had previously reinstalled that damn Pertronix coil which I had swapped back in after noticing the original Delco coil was leaking oil last week. I am beginning to think that that Pertronix coil is supposed to have its own ballast resister, even though the box said it didn't need one.)

Anyway, I couldn't get the damn thing to spark! So last night I bought a new coil at the local Napa store, still no spark. So then came the ignition parts replacement with known good parts to try to work through what went bad. Points, condensors, rotor, cap. Even tried a new primary lead wire from the neg coil terminal to the points since I have seen those break internally, before.

Turns out the brand new Accel points that I had swapped in, were defective. They were brand new in the box, but for some reason wouldn't work - looked like the rubbing block was too short. Swapped in another condensor, still no spark. Finally, I filed down an old set of used points, installed them and it miraculously fired up. Oh, that was after I installed the rotor backwards (yes, it is possible) and almost blew the roof off of the garage. (Lucky, the car has a shaker hole in the hood, otherwise it would have one now!) All in all, a very long day, yesterday. Bought a new set of Napa points this morning and replaced the old set. Started up fine once the dwell was set.

So, the end result is that I put in the #74 jets and the #44 metering rods which were almost an exact 10% jet/rod size increase in richness, along with the red power piston spring, all from Lloyd-TX, a 455HO fanatic on the Performance Years website. This replaced the factory 71 jets and 43 rods. BE secondary metering rods, replacing the leaner stock CR rods. Accelerator pump and spring from Cliff Ruggles. Timing set at 8 degrees initial at the moment. Running with the vacuum advance routed directly to the manifold vacuum nipple off the back of the carb, separate from the TCS system.

Whoa Nelly! That really woke this thing up. She definitely screams now. No more fading, pulsing or flat spots in the mid and top range. She just keeps pulling. I chickened out at around 5,000 rpm, since I was running out of highway rapidly - but she was still pulling. I would estimate it was a good 30 horsepower difference between the stock super lean setup and Lloyd's recipe. Very seemless transition to the secondaries. The car's nose just rises up off the ground immediately. Oh, and the spark plugs actually have a little color on them now, from the super lean, bright white, porcelain, before.

By the way did I mention that this car gets really bad gas mileage? or is it my driving technique? I went through half a tank and only went 35 miles.

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

Any electrical gurus out there?

OK, so I figured out the reason I keep burning up the ignition points. I just don't know how to remedy the problem.

Just out of curiosity I decided to check the voltage at the positive terminal of the coil (the black/pink resistor ignition wire and the yellow starter solenoid wire that are crimped together) when cranking versus when running.

It is completely opposite of what it is supposed to be:

When cranking it shows 9.2 - 9.6 volts. Which I imagine is a full 12 volts but reduced by the amount of juice it takes to run the starter motor.

When running it shows around 12.2-12.4 volts.

This is the opposite of what it is supposed to be doing! It should be 12 volts during crank and 9 volts when running. So those full time 12 volts are frying the points.

I just swapped out the ignition switch under the column thinking maybe it was defective but no change. I checked the starter solenoid and it is wired properly with the purple, and yellow wires in their proper position.

Anyone have an idea on this? Is the resistor wire not resisting?

The engine wiring harness was supposed to be the one for the points ignition. (AmericanAutowire part# FB20530) I am wondering if they built me the wrong harness, and gave me the unitized harness instead.

I don't know if this is a blessing in disguise since I am going to upgrade to the M&amp;H breakerless setup this weekend and their site says it will operate on the between 6 to 18 volts. I know that you need a full 12 volts running when you put an HEI distributor in, just wondering if the unitized harness has the same 12 volt running voltage.

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

It sounds to me like you may have the wrong harness. If the car were mine, I would take this route.
http://www.lectriclimited.com/mainpage.htm

The NCRS really seem to like this. Happy Thanksgiving!

Tim

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

That link goes to the main page. Are you referring to this?

http://www.breakerless.com/

LectricLimited sells them as well.

I ordered it on Monday. It should arrive tomorrow.

I dug out my original fried harness and checked the resistor wire, or what was left of it, and it read approximately 1.2 ohms resistance. It's just about impossible to get to the harness that's in the car since the bulkhead junction is buried under the power brake booster.

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

Yup! That's it!

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

Got the M&amp;H breakerless conversion installed today. Started up just fine. Had to reset the timing, though since it was off by quite a bit. Must be due to the location of the sensor as compared to the points. Once the timing was set, she ran great.

I need to call their tech line on Monday to verify that running it on 12 volts won't be a problem. The specs on their website say it's good for 6 to 18 volts but I'd like to be sure.

I also need to call American Autowire Factory Fit, the makers of the wiring harness in the car and find out why their harness is not limiting the voltage the way it's supposed to.

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

Here's a couple photos of what the brand new points looked like after about 25 miles worth of test driving. Nice blue toasty finish from the full 12 volts all the time. The contact surface looks just as fried.

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/r...b/S7006043.jpg

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/r...b/S7006044.jpg

I ended up removing the old resistor section of wire from the original burned harness and if I cant get no satisfaction from the company that made the repro harness, I guess I will have to just attach the resister section to the repro harness and hope that reduces the voltage to an acceptable level.

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

Vintage ('70) Mallory units use a .7 to 1.5 ohm resistor. This is what I am running in the Deuce right now...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...s/DSC_0024.jpg

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

I have a question on that ballast resistor. When you apply 12 volts to one end, what does the voltage read at the other end? I was getting the exact same voltage (12 volts) out of all of the spare ballast resistors I have in the shop. I thought it is supposed to read a lower voltage or am I mistaken?

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

A resistor only cuts down the voltage when the car is running. Its like having a restriction in a water pipe. When the system isn't flowing you have full pressure. It's when you open the valve that the restriction effects the flow.

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

Interesting! I will do some more experimenting tomorrow and see what the results are.

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

Today's experiment involved taking the original resistor wire lead from the original burned factory harness and connecting it between the pos terminal on the coil and the pos harness leads to see if the voltage would be reduced. I would note that the original resistor wire does feel different than the alleged resistor wire that is in the repro harness. The original wire is a much stiffer, silver colored wire with a rubberized jacketing and, not copper wire with regular colored insulation as in the repro harness.

With the car running, the voltage varied between 10.5 to 11 volts depending upon idle speed. With the car off but the key in the run position, it shows 12 volts (as predicted by member John Brown). Very interesting result since it indicates that the original factory resistor wire doesn't cut the voltage down to the recommended 9 volts.

I then took an old ballast resistor, (actually the one from the original cobbled together and toasted harness with the aftermarket electronic ignition) and connected that between the pos coil terminal and the repro harness pos leads. The result was 9 volts when the engine was running and 12 volts with the engine off and the key in the run position. Though not stock, it brings the car right into spec for points ignition running voltage.

I then removed the ballast resistor and hooked the repro harness back up as it was originally and it read 14.3 volts with the car at high idle. When not running but key in run position it read 12.4 volts.

The battery by the way read 12.8 volts with the car off.
When running and the alternator charging, the battery read 14.3 volts, the same voltage as the alternator output. If you shut off the car, unplug the alternator and restart the car the pos coil voltage reads 12.4 volts.

So the inevitable conclusion is that there is no resistor wire in the repro harness and that whatever voltage the alternator is putting out is the voltage that is going to the pos lead on the coil, resulting in fried points.

I will update this electrical mystery after I talk to American Autowire and M&amp;H on Monday.

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

Good stuff Mac. Good luck and keep us posted! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

Just to be safe, I temporarily installed that ballast resistor between the factory pos leads and the pos terminal on the coil. I mounted the ballast low on the firewall using the existing through bolt from one of the three pedal bracket bolts coming through the firewall. You can't see it unless you are really looking for it. Runs 9.4 volts at idle.

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

Spoke with both M&amp;H and American Autowire today.

American Autowire is working on getting me a replacement harness. They said it is possible that it was put together wrong, without a resistor wire, a few years ago when I originally purchased it. (Luckily I saved the invoice) They seem to be very attentive to customer needs and it looks like they are going to send me a new harness so I can swap it out and return the old one so they can dissect it.

M&amp;H, the makers of the SE breakerless conversion indicated that you should only run the lower voltage (9 volts) to their unit when running and not a full 12 volt load because it will eventually burn out the unit. They agreed that running the ballast resistor is a good thing to do for the time being.

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

Now you're gettin' somewhere!

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mockingbird812</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now you're gettin' somewhere! </div></div>

Yeah, it's like a bad 1950's detective novel: [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img]

&quot;There she was, pumpin out a turgid twelve volts, way over my nine volt limit. I said Baby Cakes, you gotta lower that voltage or we're both gonna get burned. She just smirked in the blue afterglow of her tesla-coil, sparks flying like Frankenstein's monster tied down to the slab.&quot;

Hopefully we'll be getting to the good part soon! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Update: American Autowire fedexed the replacement harness out today. Since they are in NJ, it should be here tomorrow or Wednesday. Then comes the disassembly fun to remove the old one. A+ customer service!

Here's their website: www.americanautowire.com

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/haha.gif[/img] You've got a future Mac!!! I love your &quot;prose&quot;!!! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/haha.gif[/img]

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

Victory at last!

Got the replacement harness from American Autowire this afternoon. It took more than four hours to pull the old one and put the new one in. It was not a fun time.

The junction to the firewall was a nightmare as it is behind the brake booster. You literally have to pull about six inches of the engine harness into the passenger compartment in order to disconnect it from the inside half of the dash harness. You then have to find something to pry the halves apart while hanging upside-down under the dash. Of course there is no room to tighten the main connection bolt once you get the new engine harness connected to the old dash harness. And in typical fashion, the internal retaining nut inside the main fuse box started spinning, making it just about impossible to pull the two halves together. Not a happy time. Completely shredded my hands and arms doing this.

The starter removal/reinstallation was another fun part of the process. The factory length on the 455HO starter harness section has very little extra play in it as it has to get around the front of the block and underneath the HO exhaust manifolds, unlike the regular Pontiac engines, so you have to hold the 20 pound starter up with one hand while removing/installing the wires with the other hand, while using your third hand to hold the wires in place so they don't move while tightening.

Here's the old harness after I got it removed and before sending it back to American Autowire.

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/r...b/S7006058.jpg

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

As we suspected, the harness in the car had regular copper wire instead of resistor wire for the positive coil lead. As you can see the black wire with the pink stripe is just regular copper wire:

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/r...b/S7006051.jpg

The replacement harness had the correct resistor wire. It was actually labeled as resistor wire like the original one I pulled from my toasted factory harness. You could see it was a heavy silver and not copper wire.

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/r...b/S7006055.jpg

Once I got everything reinstalled and hooked up, I started her up. She actually had the correct voltage, in the correct key positions: 9 volts when running! Finally no more frying electricals. Heck, now maybe my tach will even read the correct rpms. (I can always hope).

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/burnout.gif[/img]

I gotta hand it to the guys at American Autowire. I don't know many companies these days, that would honor a warranty issue six years after you buy something. My original receipt was dated November 2004 but they honored the warranty nonetheless, and overnighted the new harness, no charge. Now that's the real test of a company - standing behind their product when something like this happens, regardless of the timespan.

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

Congrats Mac. We're gonna want to see pix of your trashed arms and hands tho!! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img]

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

I look like something out of the new TV series <span style="font-style: italic">The Walking Dead</span> at the moment. No a pretty sight!

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

That <span style="font-style: italic">Walking Dead</span> is good. I surprised myself that I would like a zombie show so much.

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

Thumbs up to you and American Autowire.


Jason

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

An added bonus: The tach is now working accurately too, now that the coil voltage is correct.
At 60 mph it reads around 2,700 rpm (the website chart http://www.ringpinion.com/Calc_RPM.aspx says 2,642 rpm)

Yippy!
[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img]

Re: 72 TA : New Project
 

Took her out for a ride today and finally made the magic 1000 mile mark on the car. So everything is run-in and still actually functioning.

Funny thing is that the a/c compressor finally stopped seeping oil and spraying it around the engine compartment. Of course that then lead me to double check that there was still freon in the system and that it didn't all leak out somewhere. Thankfully it is still holding pressure and blowing cold. So I guess it takes 1000 miles of run-in to get the compressor front seal, to seal.