Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

...burn the repop paperwork prior to sale...

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

[ QUOTE ]


A.) true..you can blame gm for not using the vins as a way of

determining a cars true pedigree and not keeping records.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like Blame the gun not the guy who pulls the trigger, blame the booze not the drunk who gets behind the wheel ..... your just dead wrong.

People who knowingly act to produce articles that can be represented as original items of value are called counterfeiters

COUNTERFEIT

1. made in imitation so as to be passed off fraudulently or deceptively as genuine; not genuine; forged: counterfeit dollar bills.
2. pretended; unreal: counterfeit grief.
–noun
3. an imitation intended to be passed off fraudulently or deceptively as genuine; forgery.

Thats how I see it, it would be one thing to recreate a car as identical, I can understand that (clone etc.) but when you start restamping parts and recreating documents in a manner that is intended to deceive, which is what you are trying to do, you are just one step away from being a criminal. The sale!

Just my .02

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

[ QUOTE ]
You can carbon date the POP in this thread all you want and it will still come out as being almost 40 years old.


how is that?

it is 2 years old.....i dont understand....

[/ QUOTE ]

Some fraudsters are using original POP's that were never filled out in 1969. Consequently, all the material of the POP is from 1969. Besides, what seller is going to let you carbon test his docs?

I can see it now - "Okay I'll buy your car as soon as you give me the original paperwork so I can send it off to be tested". Not going to happen.

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

"I would think that a Canadian sold car is the only way to go. The VIN can be verified any time through GM Canada. With the market saturated with fake paperwork, I'm glad all my cars are Canadian sold"

I agree with this statement to a point.
George Z. & his team do this hobby a great and beneficial service,but a vehicle documented through there is nothing more then verifying a VIN # & the options it came with...that's it.
Because of that,a Canadian built/sold vehicles' past history & research must be continued on and scrutinized closer,more so then any US sold vehicle,as it should be looked at for any subtle signs of foul play.
Harvested vehicles have been found with transplanted VIN & cowl tags documented through Canada,just to appear authentic to unsuspecting buyers.
Too much premature confidence is being put into a vehicle with Canadian history today,when they really need to START with George,not end with him.

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

[ QUOTE ]
...burn the repop paperwork prior to sale...

[/ QUOTE ]

that is a good answer!!!!!

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


A.) true..you can blame gm for not using the vins as a way of

determining a cars true pedigree and not keeping records.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like Blame the gun not the guy who pulls the trigger, blame the booze not the drunk who gets behind the wheel ..... your just dead wrong.

People who knowingly act to produce articles that can be represented as original items of value are called counterfeiters

COUNTERFEIT

1. made in imitation so as to be passed off fraudulently or deceptively as genuine; not genuine; forged: counterfeit dollar bills.
2. pretended; unreal: counterfeit grief.
–noun
3. an imitation intended to be passed off fraudulently or deceptively as genuine; forgery.

Thats how I see it, it would be one thing to recreate a car as identical, I can understand that (clone etc.) but when you start restamping parts and recreating documents in a manner that is intended to deceive, which is what you are trying to do, you are just one step away from being a criminal. The sale!

Just my .02

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

not interested in selling it...but if i did.it will be wothout docs.i will have a notarized signed document stating what the car is.....

anyways...it's not all about this particular car...is it?

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

this is a good discussion..

we ll need to talk about this and hash out not only the details......but seeing all the different point of views!

its amazing how different minds think differently....

there are some very valid points coming from some of you....

together,you guys are pretty sharp!!!!!

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

stop, stop, STOP!...if you want to read a novel on wagonmans Vert and all that goes along with it go to Team Camaro and read on for hours about this vert and the why's and what for's . I wasnt going to say a word hopeing Mr Wagon could control himself, Mr. Wagon there are forums for people that like to debate, going on for days on your car and associated paperwork again will be to painful.

very nice car, and it ends there. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I can see it now - "Okay I'll buy your car as soon as you give me the original paperwork so I can send it off to be tested". Not going to happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

In all fairness, Hylton, you did just ask in a current thread if it was possible to see behind a trim tag. That would involve bending the tag, popping off the rivets, removing the tag, whatever... Any method would likely lead to more questions than answers in the long run. Ask the owner if it's okay to do so, and that is not going to happen either.

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can see it now - "Okay I'll buy your car as soon as you give me the original paperwork so I can send it off to be tested". Not going to happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

In all fairness, Hylton, you did just ask in a current thread if it was possible to see behind a trim tag. That would involve bending the tag, popping off the rivets, removing the tag, whatever... Any method would likely lead to more questions than answers in the long run. Ask the owner if it's okay to do so, and that is not going to happen either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Either that or just a photo of the rear of the trim tag? Behind the firewall? Seems a bit easier....

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

Hylton: Now that I think about it, I think you meant taking a look behind the firewall rather than the tag itself. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hylton: Now that I think about it, I think you meant taking a look behind the firewall rather than the tag itself. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. My point is that there are some things you can do without tearing a resto apart to ensure you are getting what you think you are getting.

With respect to a removed trim tag, you can make the engine side look un-touched, but it's pretty hard to make the caulking on the other side look 35 years old when the tag has been off the car.

There are also a few body stamp dates scattered throughout the car that can be verified provided the seller is willing to let you remove a few interior parts using a screwdriver and socket.

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

Here's some interesting reading that arrived w/ my monthly online newsletter from the Kovels Antique group.. Change the names and items involved and you've got pretty much the same as what we're going through here in the car world!.
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif

"...LOOK OUT FOR FAKES!

Restoration, embellishment and just plain fakes have been known in the world of collecting since ancient times. It is said that fake Greek coins tempted eager Roman collectors. High-end English and American shops are nervously waiting for more news about the latest major furniture-faking story. Did John Hobbs, a well-known high-priced English antiques dealer, really sell fake furniture as his restorer, Dennis Buggins, now claims? Buggins said he made pieces for Hobbs that he thought would be sold as new, but that Hobbs sold them as antiques--one table for as much as $2.4 million.
We are surprised that some of Hobbs' clients don't seem to care if a piece they bought is old or new. And even more surprising, the decorators who bought and sold the furniture evidently claimed no responsibility for authenticity. In the 19th century, fakers liked to re-carve round tilt-top tables into "wine-tasting" tables with added carved circles to outline the wine bottles. And it was acceptable to make an extra chair for a dining room set by using parts of an old chair and adding replica pieces. But these efforts were simple compared to the Hobbs-Buggins story. The supposed fakes were assembled from quality antiques with large, aged, wooden surfaces and pleasing shapes. One set of small tables from the Hobbs showroom is pictured in the New York Times. The tables were apparently made from two ends of a dining table and then embellished with antique cameos set in frames.
Many of Hobbs' expensive pieces seem to be fantasies, not copies, and many were sold with a fabricated written history of past ownership and workmen. Dealers, decorators and auction houses are now waiting to learn if lawsuits will result for any who handled the merchandise. A sad week for collectors. First a cloud over the merchandise sold by a top English dealer, then word that the crystal skulls Harrison Ford is seeking in his new Indiana Jones movie have been 19th-century fakes all along!..."

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif
~ Pete

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

2.4 million for a fake wooden table eh? Excuse me while I go try and find my old router...

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

There is no substitute for 'OWNER HISTORY' If in doubt, JUST SAY NO.

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

[ QUOTE ]
stop, stop, STOP!...if you want to read a novel on wagonmans Vert and all that goes along with it go to Team Camaro and read on for hours about this vert and the why's and what for's . I wasnt going to say a word hopeing Mr Wagon could control himself, Mr. Wagon there are forums for people that like to debate, going on for days on your car and associated paperwork again will be to painful.

very nice car, and it ends there. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

i remember that...i found it.....

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showth...28+convertible

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

Hylton,
Where are the stamps you are referring to that can be accessed with a screwdriver?

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hylton,
Where are the stamps you are referring to that can be accessed with a screwdriver?

[/ QUOTE ]

Every Chevrolet body panel will have a date stamp. Doors have dates stamped on them which are visible when you remove the door panels. Look for a 3 digit stamp such as H23. The key is the "23" which will represent the 23rd week of the year the door was made. Both doors should have similar dates. The trunk lid date will also have a date that is similar to the doors. It is located on the underside support, usually in the middle of the trunk lid. Sometimes the jack decal is covering it. Rocker panel dates may be visible if you remove the door sills but like many areas, paint may make the date unreadable.

Another important date stamp to look at is the back seat brace. Rarely is this changed during a rebody. This is the piece that looks like 2 letter Y's together. Remove the back seat. The date will be stamped on the passenger side brace.

If the car is a project, then you might want to look at the quarter panel and tail panel date stamps as well. The quarter panel date stamps are located in the top corner of the trunk gutter and the tail panel date stamp is located on the outside area that is usually covered up by the rear bumper.

The Firewall also has a date below the heater fan which is near the partial VIN stamp. It's usually very clear.

These dates are stamped when the piece is manufactured, not when Fisher assembled the body so be aware that they will always be earlier than the date on the trim tag.

Now if someone has changed a body panel using a part from an original car, then obviously the date will not jive with the rest of the car.

The key here is to ensure what you are getting is what you are expecting. If someone tells you it's a rebody, or a resto using repro or replaced parts, checking dates will not be so important.

If a seller however tells you the car is a low mileage, original body paneled car, the asking price will be high and you need to be sure you are getting an honest car.

Spend some time getting as much car history as possible. Who owned it when and what they did with it when they owned it, checking dates on the car (parts, panels) and evaluating that information against what the seller is telling you will give you good background for making a purchase decision.

Hope others here will feel free to add locations of date stamps they have seen on GM cars. Hopefully someone with some spare time, will post a few pictures of panel dates.

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

Thanks to Kevin K for the following pictures! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Trunk Lid from 67 Camaro showing 44th week:
http://www.camaros.net/showroom/data...7camaro018.jpg

Quarter panel from same car showing same week as trunk lid:
http://www.camaros.net/showroom/data...7camaro020.jpg

Right front fender from same car showing 42nd week:
http://www.camaros.net/showroom/data...7camaro052.jpg

Left front fender showing 38th week:
http://www.camaros.net/showroom/data...7camaro051.jpg

Seat rail with date stamp:
http://www.camaros.net/showroom/data...m/IMG_0515.jpg

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

good information!

it's info with pictures like this that will help in the sale of legit cars.....

possibly supercedeing any false paperwork or fake pop's...

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

make way for the fake date stampers https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/mad.gif

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

[ QUOTE ]
good information!

it's info with pictures like this that will help in the sale of legit cars.....

possibly supercedeing any false paperwork or fake pop's...

[/ QUOTE ]

Granted sheetmetal stamping is well known, however critical pieces of knowledge should not be disclosed. I am not here to educate the crooks. You know what it takes to make a almost perfect clone and I won't be a part of educating counterfeiters & crooks to perfect their deceptive practices. You call it educating ...I call it plain stupidity https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif Many members on this site feel the same way.



When I share critical information it is with people I know and trust and do it discreetly.

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

[ QUOTE ]
You call it educating ...I call it plain stupidity https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif Many members on this site feel the same way.

When I share critical information it is with people I know and trust and do it discreetly.

[/ QUOTE ]

So are you saying that the general public should not be educated on better ways to avoid being a victim of fraud?

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

Hylton,
Thanks for your time and efforts. From the pictures of the body panels I don't see a year? Is the year on there? Just looks like weeks?

In regard to educating crooks, I don't think crooks are coming to this sight looking for information. I think they have figured it out already through years of experience. The information gained here helps guys like me who want Chevy's to learn more. I looked for a Yenko Camaro or COPO for almost 20 years that had to have verifiable owners I could talk to and have bulletproof paperwork and be well known in the Yenko community before Colin found mine in Dave's collection last year. Not having solid information and being confident about how to verify a Camaro or Chevelle precluded me from being a part of Chevy world for a long time.

With my Fords and Pontiac's I at least had factory docs telling me what the car should be based on the VIN and I then verified the casting dates and owner history. With my Mopars the cars at least had a code in the VIN and a couple of other places it is found plus Galen's reputation after he inspects a car adds confidence when buying. But Ford and Pontiac factory docs gave me a big head start as opposed to starting from scratch with a Chevy.

Also, had I known about this sight and the amazing information and people on it I would have jumped in years ago. From my experience nothing runs or sounds like a big block Chevy but the fraud in Corvette world and Camaro world is simply rampant and rightfully scares away lots of buyers.

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
good information!

it's info with pictures like this that will help in the sale of legit cars.....

possibly supercedeing any false paperwork or fake pop's...

[/ QUOTE ]

Granted sheetmetal stamping is well known, however critical pieces of knowledge should not be disclosed. I am not here to educate the crooks. You know what it takes to make a almost perfect clone and I won't be a part of educating counterfeiters & crooks to perfect their deceptive practices. You call it educating ...I call it plain stupidity https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif Many members on this site feel the same way.



When I share critical information it is with people I know and trust and do it discreetly.

[/ QUOTE ]

hello,

i actually learned everything from several books from a very well known camaro author..it was quite helpful...

the information and recources are out there...you cant blame me for being stupid.

I know what it takes to make a almost perfect clone,but i'm honest enough to say so.
it's the cars that arent being disclosed that should worry you.this is what we need to educate againsed.


that descreet conversation your having with your freind is full of info we can find in books and on the net.musclecars have been around for decades now.

are you saying that only your self should know the answers?

if so then many people will get ripped off in fraudulant transactions.


a previous post indicated date stamps of body panels...

now tell me did he educate a counterfeiter or a possible buyer?

i say both..if both sides know the full story,then it would be more difficult to deceive.

i have not givin out out any information on how to create a perfect clone........

just information that it is being done............


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c7...1_RK0139_0.jpg

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hylton,
Thanks for your time and efforts. From the pictures of the body panels I don't see a year? Is the year on there? Just looks like weeks?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, there is nothing to indicate year on the sheetmetal date stampings. If someone did collect pictures of these stampings and mapped them with the dates and VIN numbers of cars, I believe someone would be able to tell what year the sheetmetal part was made.

Over the year(s), there were certain adjustments and fitment issues which would help identify the timeframe which the part came from.

Collecting pictures of dates would help determine what year the part was built because you can look at exactly how the stamp was done. Lighter stampings and position of stampings are both traits which help establish when the stamp was made.


[ QUOTE ]
In regard to educating crooks, I don't think crooks are coming to this sight looking for information. I think they have figured it out already through years of experience. The information gained here helps guys like me who want Chevy's to learn more. I looked for a Yenko Camaro or COPO for almost 20 years that had to have verifiable owners I could talk to and have bulletproof paperwork and be well known in the Yenko community before Colin found mine in Dave's collection last year. Not having solid information and being confident about how to verify a Camaro or Chevelle precluded me from being a part of Chevy world for a long time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most crooks know how to build a successful fake/rebody/restamped car. The issue really is about how much effort does that crook want to go through to perfect his crime. I believe most of them think they are smarter then most buyers and thus do not need to go through the effort and expense of building a perfect BS'd car.

Nowadays, it's rarely worth it for fraudsters to go through the expense. The market is in the tank, real parts are still scarce or expensive and cars do not bring the money they used to. The issue is really about protecting the consumer from buying existing cars out there.

If Steve wants to hold onto information which can prevent others from getting screwed, that's his perogative but I also believe if you educate the public and in doing so, crooks are educated as well, it's still better than crooks being educated a bit and the public not being educated at all except for a select few.

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

Beautifully put Hylton!.
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Although I initially liked the Estes' tribute car itself, personally the restamps and 'documents' made me quickly lose any interest in the car whatsoever..

Each their own though...it's your car..

What I can't understand is if Wagonmeister has true concerns for those who may get shaken on cars w/ similar 'pedigrees', why be so clandestine about where these fictional POP's etc were obtained?.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif
~ Pete

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

Crooks and dishonest people are everywhere, even our membership is not immune. Some of these guys think that just because they stamped their engines or swapped their VIN and trim tags 5,10,20 years ago that no one remembers.

I think it is just as bad when someone removes rare and valuable authentic GM parts from a well known car and replaces them with "junk" reproduction items and doesn't disclose that to the new buyer.

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

If you ask me,i think wagon man has been very upfront on this project from the beginning.I read about in on TC before.He said it was not real.Why is everybody so worried about this one car?It could'nt be jealousy could it?I'm sure there are many others that are fakes but the owners are not fessing up to it.I dont have the experience that most expensive car collectors have.

This entire story has opened my eyes to possible fake cars.

Has it opened anybody elses eyes?
That has to be one of the most beautiful first generation camaros.

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

Passenger door from an 05A 69 Camaro (N6408**) showing H18:

http://www.camaros.net/showroom/data...m/date_002.jpg

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

wow! lookie here!

i'm surprized Jim is doing this!!!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/69-Camaro...p3286.m20.l1116

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

"This is an offically licensed GM part. A reproduction made to order." https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif
So is GM endorsing identity theft? How can/will Jim verify that the info given at the time of order is not from somebody elses car? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

At least they look totally fake! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

[ QUOTE ]
"This is an offically licensed GM part. A reproduction made to order." https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif
So is GM endorsing identity theft? How can/will Jim verify that the info given at the time of order is not from somebody elses car? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gifIsn't it legal to change your trim tag everywhere except Oklahoma? The other 49 need to get on board. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

Iam New, but a long time reader. My question is: If you order a Trim Tag from Jim at heartbeat city, Dos that make your Camaro correct to what it is? Z/28 ZL1 R/S Etc? Second question Who would you have to have it instaled by? Last question If this new Trim Tag that jim sell license by General Motors? Thanks Frank216 https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

Frank...A trim tag swap doesn't make the car anything more. It will just be something that has a fake TT on it. Most knowledgeable people stay away from anything that has had a tag swapped.It wouldn't matter who installed it. Still bogus. I highly dought that GM has given any stamp of approval for fake trim tags.

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

It realy scares me about buying a Muscle Car. I went back to his Auction. Jim at Heartbeat that these Trim Tags are License. I question that? Frank261 https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

[ QUOTE ]
"This is an offically licensed GM part. A reproduction made to order." https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif
So is GM endorsing identity theft? How can/will Jim verify that the info given at the time of order is not from somebody elses car? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


GM will will license a trim tag, but they won't release the VIN documentation on Chevy cars and trucks from the old days...??? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/ooo.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/mad.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

There aren't enough Graemlins to cover this topic...

wilma https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/frown.gif

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

I getting to think its not about great muscle cars, it all money. Who cares if i lose a few freinds and customers. I think alot of people will think how much can i respect the fact that its all about Money https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif Frank261

Re: Fake Protect-O-Plates...
 

Is this your 12 bolt? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-Cama...sspagenameZWDVW