Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

QUOTE: recently bought a 1969 silver copo 427 camaro @ russo and steele in fort lauderdale , i took it home a day or two later i got a phone call from a friend and he told me to check the car out real good because he heard or a rumor that the camaro was a re-body , i remove the cowl and found that the car was a re-body , i contacted russo and steele and they treated terrible . QUOTE

That Sucks!!

Rich

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Are you kidding me or what?, Correct me if I'm wrong, If I call an "expert" to certify a car, I would expect them to check to see if it's a rebody?

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Agreed, if he is a dealer he knows how to do his research. I was under the impression he was a private buyer just a new guy with a desire to own a car of his dreams who got a bad break at an auction.

To the new guy or an average guy Canadian paperwork, CC paperwork and formerly from the RJ collection is a green light to buy with confidence but to an experienced muscle car buyer it means what it means.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

If you have proof (GM of Canada) like this car had that your car was a real COPO you could get a cert. with out it being inspected.. aleast thats what Ive always been told. Maybe other can Chime in?? Ive always taken a COPO cert to mean that it has the key items/percings and that it falls in to the batch runs? but its not bullet proof paper work.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

I don't think there is such a thing as bullet proof paperwork? PHS docs are being duplicated now to the extent even Jim Mattison can't tell from looking at the docs and he needs to check his database against the docs. Jim advises getting new docs with each prospective purchase.With todays level of sophisticated fraud, paperwork is just the start in authenticating a car. And from my perspective Chevy's are always the most difficult to authenticate.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Why is it that every time there is an auction there are stories of folks not being very happy with the outcome?

I think the auction company needs to take some responsibility for the product they are offering. If a situation like this arises I would think they would want to bend over backwards to investigate the claims and do everything to make amends.

Buyers must be confident when they go to an auction that what they are being offered is what they think it is.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

To clarify, this is 9N635209.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Just to clarify, the COPO Connection had issued verifications to those owners based on VIN. Similar to the way Canadian documentation is obtained. When the CC website was up, there was a disclaimer indicating that it was beyond the organization's control to monitor the way a vehicle was restored. Neither the Canadian documentation or the COPO verification ever required an inspection before getting paperwork.
Ed

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

))))))THE POINT OF THE STORY(((((( (( THERE IS A SILVER 1969 COPO CAMARO THAT IS A RE-BODY -RS -SILVER OUT SIDE AND BLUE INTERIOR , AUTOMATIC I THINK NOBODY ELSE SHOULD GO THREW THE PROBLEM ---- (2) THE OTHER POINT IS RUSSO AND STEELE AUCTION ARE NASTY TO THEIR CUSTOMERS,THEY WOULD NOT SEND AN INSPECTOR TO CHECK THE CAR,THEY REFUSED TO FIND THE TRUTH,THEY WANTED TO CALL THE POLICE AND CHARGE ME WITH A STOLEN CAR,I DID WHAT ANYBODY WOULD HAVE DONE AFTER I FOUND OUT IT WAS A CHOP JOB CAR , I PLACED A STOP PAYMENT AND GAVE THE CAR BACK. IF ANY OF YOU GUYS DONT AGREE WITH THIS YOU ARE AS TWISTED AS THEY ARE.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

I don't think anyone disagrees that you wouldn't want the car. Ed,PHS,Canada docs are all VIN relative. Would have been less headaches for you if you had asked around first.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

I am essentially a Ford guy with only one Camaro in my collection so I don't know how this COPO connection stuff works? So if I understand this a Camaro with a COPO connection paperwork is not necessarily inspected by Ed C.? But is rather only "VIN relative" in that the particular Camaro has a correct VIN for a COPO Camaro???? I am confused how this works in Chevy world? For Mopars Galen will decode a car for you which is easy to understand that it means that it was not physically inspected by him? A physical inspection by Galen is a physical inspection no confusion there and Galens inspections include casting date codes as well as part numbers.

I have seen some Chevy inspection paperwork from a Jerry Mcniesh (probably not correct spelling) but the inspection report generated for a purported LS6 Chevelle failed to have any casting date codes to verify any of the important parts such as the block for instance were built before the data plate said the car was built? So I couldn't understand how the car was considered or certified to have it's original block when the report failed or Jerry wasn't paid enough or perhaps not asked to get the casting date codes????

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

my opinion. I would *expect* that such an auction house as R&S would do their homework before accepting the car. It would seem that it is their responsibility not the buyer.. I mean why are you paying such prices for cars thru R&S (who has an excellent reputation) if they do not at least check into them first. I hope everything works out for the OP and R&S.. Im sure no one wants to be in either position..

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

There is just no way for an auction house to check every car... it really is not their responsibility.

For arguments sake lets say that the auction house checks every car.
Say they check the hidden vins... and they match. Do they stop there? Does that guarantee the vins from another car were not welded in?

Who is to say how much time and effort they should go through?
If you open that can of worms I can not see where it would end. (especially once the Lawyers become involved)

In the end the buyer is responsible for checking the vehicle over, and if the buyer is not knowledgeable then find someone such as Jerry Macneish to inspect the car. (his fees will be money well spent and on a 100k car his fees couldn't be more than 2% of purchase price)

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
It would seem that it is their responsibility not the buyer..

[/ QUOTE ] Thats exactly why some owners bring thier cars to auction and try and get people to certify thier cars, so they can pass the buck when the car is discovered to be a rebody or a perfect clone. No auction house or individual has ever removed heater boxes and sanded firewalls back 3 feet on 100 point restored cars,not realistic. Years ago the NCRS got smart to this and made a waiver that even if a car got 100 poits it didnt mean it [top flight certificate] could be used as "documentation" or proof of authenticity,rebody,restamp etc even though they gave 100% on a pad stamp,

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Fellow Enthusiasts,

The buyer of this vehicle never funded the transaction. As a result, the vehicle has been returned to the seller. Any allegations regarding the authenticity of this (or any other vehicle) will be fully investigated by the principals involved.

Reckless claims and unsubstantiated allegations in any public forum, including this board, serve no tangible benefit for our hobby. Russo and Steele, the auction house has taken the appropriate steps in this scenario and has mediated a suitable resolution.

To place the seller of this vehicle at any disadvantage, regardless of its history, without specific evidence and with unsubstantiated claims is simply unfair.

This matter is now closed. Please do our fellow collectors the courtesy of allowing them to proceed to engage the appropriate professional authorities to accurately determine the disposition of this automobile.

Drew Alcazar
President – Russo and Steele, L.L.C.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Nice, Drew. thanks for stepping up. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

I second that. Thank you Drew, for the professional response. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Hmmmm. Doesn't sound like Drew's syntax. Looks like everyone lawyered up. In any event, 'twas a good discussion on this board and helpful to me as I collect "authentic" "survivor" "real" "true" "numbers matching" cars in the future (whatever the heck those terms mean). My purchases (and sales) will probably be from this board 'cuz from all accounts https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ouguysrock.gif Bob

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

"Reckless claims and unsubstantiated allegations in any public forum, including this board, serve no tangible benefit for our hobby."

Isn't this the same Drew Alcazar who boasted that his company did the right thing by "shill bidding" to get the price up?

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
To place the seller of this vehicle at any disadvantage, regardless of its history, without specific evidence and with unsubstantiated claims is simply unfair.


[/ QUOTE ]

With no disrespect, IS THIS NOT SPECIFIC EVIDENCE?
[ QUOTE ]
the vin # on the cowl has been cut out and replaced by the real copo vin # , but it is a terrible job and if you take a mirror and look under it you will see the welding all around the numbers ----- the worst part about it is the way russo and steele does bussiness , they wanted their money anyway and did not care, drew threating me by saying that he was going to call the cops and charge me with a stolen car,, maybe what i should has done was call the cops my self and they would have taken the car by (auto-theft police) and destroy it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

The rebody could of happened in Canada, and there is a possibility the seller was not aware of it. This is a terrible situation for all parties. It would be impossible/unreasonable expectation for the auction house to be an expert in every make and model to determine a cars authenticity. Buyers must be aware and do their own homework. Yes there is recourse for the buyer in these situations but if the homework was done the buyer would not be faced with all the aggravation.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you have proof (GM of Canada) like this car had that your car was a real COPO you could get a cert. with out it being inspected.. aleast thats what Ive always been told. Maybe other can Chime in??

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe far too much reliance is placed on GM Canada documentation in proving a car 'is what it is.' Up until, the mid 90's, part of the documentation package included the 'vehicles shipped' microfiche which showed your car in it's build sequence with up to 50 others. I have one of these sheets with 15 L79 Chevy IIs on it! Every detail is shown including the VIN, engine suffix code, options, color, even the key codes. The chances of more than a couple of these L79's still existing is remote.

To prove how easy it is to replicate one of these cars, I guy I know took a VIN from one of the L79's on the sheet and sent it to GM Canada for documentation, which they did. He then bought a six cylinder Chevy II in the U.S. and started to build a car exactly to the specs on the documentation. Having proved his point about how easy it would be to build a phoney documented Canadian L79, he changed a number of things so the car couldn't become 'what it isn't' in the future. It also maintains it's U.S. VIN and cowl tag. The bottom line is, GM Canada documented cars can be built from the info on these microfiche copies. There are untold numbers of these sheets still out there with all kinds of rare cars on them. Bottom line, just because a car has GM Canada documentation doesn't mean it's real.

Bob

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

"Buyers must do their own Homework"

In general I fully agree with this statement and I'm not taking sides with anyone when I say this,but what homework could a buyer like this have done to find out what he later discovered in his garage before he bid on it?
Are there people out there who knew something about this particular Camaro already?
If so,where are they and would they've spoken up in this day & age without fear of being sued/outed by another?
Do any auction houses allow perspective buyers to take cars apart before they drive them out on stage?

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

To Rick's point, I think the first place to go is right here. This board is the central repository of information regarding questionable cars, this silver rs is no exception. I don't think anyone here is going to wave a flag from the rooftop (well, maybe CSharin https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif ), but if the question is posed, an honest answer will be given - perhaps in public, perhaps privately.

Obviously, you can't tear a car apart right before it goes across the block, but there is enough time to find this board and ask. Some people don't ask for various reasons, and only come here afterwards - sort of like this buyer. If he had the expertise to find this site afterwards, why not ask about the car b4 he bought it? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Very few cars with a shady past are complete secrets from the sYc membership. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

I have to agree with Rick on this. There is only so much you can to to verify the car at the auction house. They would be a little pissed if you start removing parts to check numbers. There is no way an auction company can verify all the cars they auction off. They have to rely on the info the owner gives them.
James

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Thats what I was thinking, how much time would one have to inspect a car which was coming up for auction. It sounds like the hobby/industry must make an effort to educate buyers as to what to look for and make the information very public. The only way this may change is to put enough skepticism in the market that in order to get the big money owners would have to really prove up there car. Unfortunately this would may have the effect of depressing values market wide but it may help solve the problem of "fake" cars which if left to continue will create big credibility problem moving forward. I think the auction people would be well served by putting some teeth into agreements made with sellers and being very public about it. If im going to the auction I would sure feel better about putting my money down if I knew there was a better screening process.

I agree that it is impossible for the auction people to police the market, but the more these unfortunate stories surface the more the auction business will suffer.

I may be way off base with this but my 0.02

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

For a car like that...and him being a dealer I would think he would have done a lot of homework before shelling out the bucks...or giving a check to them. The car was probably on the RS site for a good while to start getting feedback. You have to look into high dollars cars before you raise the paddle IMO.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

If you buy a home,dont hire an inspection company before the closing, and dont know what to look for yourself,you can only blame yourself when theres a foot of water in your basement after the first big rain. And you certainly cant blame the realtor. I think the problem is everytime there is a niche where money can be made,there will be people that want to get involved without the precise knowledge of what they are doing,thinking they have to act fast to get a "deal",hoping thier insurance policy for thier lack of education and expertise is litigation. If a buyer is continually lied to in writing regarding a sale ,well thats another story.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Ditto that! If you want to play in this game, you can get an education the easy way - or the hard way.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

Here's an idea. Any car with a reserve over $100,000 should be required by the auction house to produce a conclusive picture of the cars hidden vins. It would also require a statement from the owner that the pictures and vins were not altered in any way.
It's a start.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

There is no was that would happen. Hidden Vins are called hidden for a reason. To get behind a heater box on a GM car is usally a feat in itself. If it has AC, then forget about it. To expect the auction company to disassemble a restored car is rediculous. Would you expect to see the VIN behind the heater box when buying a restored car from a private party? Also, even if they are there it does not mean they were not spliced in.



Jason

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

I agree there is no substitute for doing your homework! Im not implying that we want to buy first and ask questions later and push the ultimate responsibility on someone else,
but it seems that with the quality of some of the forgeries that have been discussed, putting a little more pressure on the seller could do nothing more than help everyone involved.

Having confidence in the product will always help the sale and the bottom line. How many times do we pay a little more or purchase something because we know its quality or we know the quality of the person we are dealing with.

Thats all, everyone wins.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

I have a question about all of this that is going on! First I would like to say that anyone paying BIG $$$ for any car should check it out thoroughly before the purchase. But It looks like the Auction House and its people are not happy about the car being discussed here on the forum after the sale to this guy that "SUPPOSEDLY" discovered it to be a rebodied car.
At this point the Auction house does not loose any money because the seller of the car is going to have to pay the Auction house the money owed. But what about before the sale! Suppose an Auction house puts cars on a web site showing they are going to be auctioned off and describing them.
Now a potential buyer comes on the site here asking questions because he is interested in a certain car, and he is told by a few or many on this site the car is "NOT A REAL COPO", "NOT A REAL YENKO", "NOT A REAL ZL1" Or whatever and it is not what it is suppose to be And you guys say to the person asking about the said car "BEWARE" or "NOT TO BUY" and that "IT IS NOT REAL " IT IS A CLONE". Could the SYC site be liable for a "NO SALE" and loss of revenue to the Auction House due to the discussion claiming the car is not as advertised! Just wondering!
If a vehicle is discovered NOT AS ADVERTISED why do the AUCTION HOUSES get there panties all in a wad!Especially if the Auction house does the right thing and follows the law! What right does the AUCTION HOUSE have to tell you guys you can't or should not discuss something like this! If they get mad for discussing something like this after a sale How mad are they going to get about discussing it before the sale!
I know that things like this make it look bad to a certain extent for the Auction Houses. I know that the Auction Houses are a business and I understand that they can not inspect every car to verify if it is 100% real or correct! But can they do better than they are doing. Seems in the past few years there have been a few cars slipped through on some TOP NAME AUCTION HOUSES! That the CARS were not "AS ADVERTISED" And talking about doing the "HOMEWORK! Doesen't the AUCTION HOUSE have a responsibility to potential buyers to do "SOME HOMEWORK" on a car to protect the buyer! Sure looks like a lot of bad marks being put down for the Auction Houses in the past couple of years. From some of the things told about the Auction Houses by themselves recently on how they conduct business I would not buy a car from one of them. Also last but not least it seems everyone feels that it is the POTENTIAL BUYERS responsibility to seek out the information to find out if a car is real or not,if it is that easy for a buyer to do why can't the Auction Houses ask a few questions and find out too!Also maybe the AUCTION HOUSES should put it into the CONTRACT upon taking a vehicle for consignment that if after the sale of a vehicle it is proven the car is as not represented the SELLER is responsible for all monetary losses to the Auction House and Buyer of the vehicle plus a hefty $$$$$ penalty.
Maybe this would prompt the sellers to provide better proof a vehicle is real and it could possibly keep sellers that are less than honest from consigning the cars knowing that they are not as advertised due to loosing lots of $$$$ and creating lawsuits for themselves.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

All this talk about doing your homework before buying is fine if you know exactly what car you are after.....But....If you passed on that car for any reason and a similar car comes across and you get a case of the "wants" without any time to check it out......Then you sort of take the "Risk" in believing what the Auction House/Seller has to say about the Car.......I think this is where Pete is coming from.......

Ken

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

That's the risk you take. It's obviously best if the sellers were always honest, but in this world, it's better to have your research done up front!

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

I don't have a dog in this fight but...while some be worried about the auction house's lost income...no matter what, they have the entry fee in their pocket and beyond perhaps a spot in a brochure,the breath from an auctioneer is a far cry from what a snookered buyer would spend trying to recover his money in court. If it were me...I'da put a stop payment...then shut my mouth.[at least on this board]

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you buy a home,dont hire an inspection company before the closing, and dont know what to look for yourself,you can only blame yourself when theres a foot of water in your basement after the first big rain. And you certainly cant blame the realtor. I think the problem is everytime there is a niche where money can be made,there will be people that want to get involved without the precise knowledge of what they are doing,thinking they have to act fast to get a "deal",hoping thier insurance policy for thier lack of education and expertise is litigation. If a buyer is continually lied to in writing regarding a sale ,well thats another story.


[/ QUOTE ]

In the state of NC, it's called disclosure. A seller must disclose any defects in their property before it can be listed in the MLS. There is a form that the seller MUST fill out before the property can be listed, The form has a series of questions such as: "does the basement flood" Here is a link to the form if anyone is interested Property Disclosure Form
And yes, I would ALWAYS get a home inspection before closing but a disclosure statement prevents a lot of unknowns, and costly mistakes.

WHY DON'T THE AUCTION HOUSES HAVE A DISCLOSURE FORM? To say it's the buyer's sole responsibility is absurd.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

A disclosure statement on works with honest sellers... that and the fact that you would have to prove that the owner knew of the issues. If the owner bought the car already restored then Chain of Custody gets cloudy... another reason why provenance is the key to high dollar tangible investments.

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

What if the basement floods but the seller does not know it? Disclosure only works if the seller knows about an issue. Many cars have issues from years ago and sellers do not know they are there. Looks at the Mustang the lady got as a graduation present and had to give back to the true owner decades later because it was stolen/revinned. Seller's do not always know about the issues and therefore cannot disclose them.


Jason

Re: russo and steel chop job camaro copo
 

1]be educated yourself 2]If you arent educated hire someone who is 3] ask seller to guarantee something you are concerned with [rebody,reatag etc] in writing and notarized 4] If you dont have 1,2 or 3 above dont buy a car.. seems pretty simple to me