Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

side

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

pass side

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

check out that cowl plenum cut-out...thats pretty ugly...

ya think the dealer did that???

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

the car did come with the " not so factory" cowl-plenum delete plate when i bought it....( a piece of bent sheetmetal painted black and screwed in over the hole)

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

this and the other side similar are the only rust issues with the car......I have the lower patch panels to fix them. I definitely would not replace the quarters...

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

the other side...it had a bit of old muddddd in there already on a prior fix...the car was painted before. I believe once you get into it, you may have to replace a bit larger portion on this side...but definitely not more than just a lower patch panel...

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

the portions in the photos that are pimed were stripped bare including the doors, inside and out, trunklid, etc....the firewall has been stripped and painted, but the undermeath of the body..ie floors and trunk have not been stripped...(just to answer some questions I have recieved...) Heres a pic of the firewall...notice that pretty hole again!! hahaha Thanks again Yenko.net

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

[ QUOTE ]
Nope; bodies were not made 'in order'.

Imagine if you will hundreds of body tags [not assembled bodies] and other paperwork in queue at Fisher body. Maybe it was all in a vinyl pouch. Someone in production control at Fisher looks at the Chevrolet assembly schedule for the day/week and releases the appropriate body tag/paperwork to production. Chevy then gets the assembled body when they expect it.

[/ QUOTE ]


William,

Still waiting for your reply's.....

Thanks

Phil https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

Having had a good friend that was a Chevy dealer there was seasonality to HP cars. They peaked spring through late summer.

The CRG db has very few 07C '67 tags. It could be yours was one of the last ordered. Just for grins the '67 Z/28 our business restored had an 06E tag, a July 6th engine, June 22 trans, March 20 axle but a VIN indicating it was built in July with 07B cars.

BTW the last VIN at NOR was N254698.

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nope; bodies were not made 'in order'.

Imagine if you will hundreds of body tags [not assembled bodies] and other paperwork in queue at Fisher body. Maybe it was all in a vinyl pouch. Someone in production control at Fisher looks at the Chevrolet assembly schedule for the day/week and releases the appropriate body tag/paperwork to production. Chevy then gets the assembled body when they expect it.

[/ QUOTE ]


William,

Still waiting for your reply's.....

Thanks

Phil https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Research, same way Paleontologists know about dinosaurs. I have been involved with 1st gens for 33 years.

I am also APICS certified, led certification classes for several years and have been the education chair on the chapter BOD for 5 years. I have worked in manufacturing for 37 years. What all that means is I have some knowledge of production control systems.

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

William,

OK - I will ask you once again:

"Please detail your opinion on the '67 Build sequence at Fisher, the lines that staged the bodys built immediatly on the Chevrolet side and why they were arranged in that manner, and finally the VIN assignment and the build sequence lock for final production".

Be specific Please. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

Hey William..thanks for the info. ...so just a few more questions...would my car have probably been ordered?? Were all the Camaros actually ordered by the dealers in the colors/option combos that they wanted?? Or was there any randomness to the build process, and then the dealers got to pick?? or what?? Thanks, Max


BTW...so the last 67 Camaro could possibly be an 07A car I guess???

...and the last known 67?? in the database?? how far from the end of production?? just curious...Thanks again, max

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

Unlike Chrysler who actually built cars on spec in those days GM cars were built to a specific order. Dealer orders were for stock, per customer spec or fleet for lease/daily rental. I believe Zone Offices could also order cars as they are sometimes listed as available in Zone newsletters.

So yes, someone specifically ordered your car.

The sequence in which scheduled orders were built was apparently negotiable. High-volume dealers could and did receive preferential treatment. De Loreans' 1973 book alludes to Zone offices threatening to delay cars ordered without radios. He also mentions chronic material shortages due in large part to the long option lists common in those days-too many build combinations.

The CRG db is proprietary so I cannot reveal specific VIN info. There is a '67 very close to the last and it is 07B.

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

http://www.camaros.org/assemblyprocess.shtml

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

William,

So by posting the link it appears you do not have an opinion yourself?



OK then Help me to understand - lets try to agree on some basics applicable ONLY to 1967 Camaro production: (Please Agree or disagree)

1. In 1967 The TT (Trim Tag) contained the major options on each body built at Fisher Agree?

2. 1968 and 1969 TT's were configured in a different manner from 1967. Agree?

3. The 1967 TT contains the option and basic RPO idenity of each car. Agree?

4. The 1967 TT was affixed by Fisher during the build up of the body. Agree?

5. In the absence of a body with a TT at the Factory there is no car to go to Chevrolet final Assembly (CFA). Agree?

6. The CFA side of the Fisher "hole" was called "Final Vehicle Assembly" Agree?

7. The basic Option content on the body was created prior to the assignment of the VIN# on the Chevrolet side. Agree?

8.The VIN# and the computer lock for CFA (with the specific option content) was partially assigned based upon down line parts availability. Agree?

9. The order where the bodys were staged at the Chevrolet side of the Fisher hole consisted of multiple staging lines. Agree?

10 The order that the bodies were staged on the Chevrolet side was random prior to the assignment of the VIN and final assembly computer build lock. Agree?

11. The VIN# assignment was required to lock the Body into final vehicle assembly sequence to meet the required parts pick. Agree?

12. The Trim Tag identifies the Month and week of body build up. Agree?

13. The build up of a body is part of the assembly process of building a complete car. Agree?

14. Fisher Body and the construction of a body was an overall Part of the GM/Chevrolet Assembly Process.
Agree?

Not trying to be adversarial, just trying to understand why you have the opinions that you seem to have on this specific vehicle in this thread.

Thanks for your time. We will start here. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

That's interesting...I'd sure as hell would like to know who ordered my car new..and what kind of life it lead...Some of the odd things I found on the car gave some clues...but I wish i had a time machine.....

BTW, As far as the motor dates...I finally dug out and uncovered the motor...the intake and distributor are both 69's....otherwise all the dates and #'s are correct as far as I can tell and according to the Smokey paperwork listing the parts,etc....

Here's a few pics...

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

cast # and date

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

carb #'s...

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

I just could not help myself but to put a cowl plenum air cleaner on the motor and take a pic or two..

I'm gonna pull the motor out and take some better pics...for old times sake...hehehe

Now that's Badass!!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

70 COPO I do not know what your problem is and will have no further response to your asinine ramblings.

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

Cool car.
Chevy body numbers are all that matter.. Vins are Federally mandated and mean nothing with regards to which car came first,
" The moment of conception is when life begins "

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

[ QUOTE ]
Cool car.
Chevy body numbers are all that matter.. Vins are Federally mandated and mean nothing with regards to which car came first,
" The moment of conception is when life begins "

[/ QUOTE ]

So if someone is born early they are not older, because they were conceived later?

That is the whole point with this... yes his car was started later... however it was finished earlier (PERIOD). It is an earlier car.

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

Nope.

VINs were sequentially assigned, monitored at the car plants by the FBI. When Chevrolet reported month-end production totals by vehicle it was by VIN and they are always in ascending order.

Body number or tag date is not always directly related to when a specific car was built. The CRG db has numerous examples of cars built out of tag date sequence. The particular time frame that this thread began with, 1967 Camaros built early July 1967 is like no other. There are 06E cars mixed in with 07A cars; there are 07C cars with 07B cars. The last Camaro built may have been 07B.

Once again and for the last time the body tag meant nothing to Chevrolet. It was for Fisher body build info only. Chevrolet scheduled car production, not Fisher body.

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

Well, there seemes to be a difference of opinions here...I did not intend to start anything or ruffle any feathers...so I am going to stick with what I definitely know after hearing these posts.........

but hell...I may still have it wrong...hahaha

...This car seems to be the only 'known' 07C 67 Z-28 in existence,

...it is the latest and 'last' known 'assembly dated' 67 Z-28 known...

....it was apparently the 'last' known 67 Z body shell to leave the fisher body side of the Norwood plant...

..and therefore, of the known 67 Z-28's, this car has the youngest and "last" body shell built...period


I guess it depends on what the meaning of the word 'car' is..

for example:
someone steals and then strips my 67 Z-28 and leaves it laying on the side of the road with nothing but the shell and cowl tag...the VIN and all parts have been removed...is it a 'car'?? ..does the car actually exist???...or not until I recover the car from the police and put it all back together and gets the State police to re-vin the car does it exist???

...regardless of this car...I have bought and sold many 'cars' that did not have much more than a shell...

...anyhowwww....it's been fun...I've killed 5 bags of popcorn...Thanks guys!!!

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

Who cares?? I dont think anyones knows the exact answers to this stuff and most of its guessing or assuming anyways, either way it wouldnt effect the value of this car.

Good luck with the sale, it seems like a good price to me and that would be a fun car to own when its done.. heck you should just restore it yourself look at the blue Z that had a smokey motor put in it and wanted Insane money!

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

[ QUOTE ]
70 COPO I do not know what your problem is and will have no further response to your asinine ramblings.

[/ QUOTE ]

William,

I was simply trying to find a basis for your comments which seem to be your mostly your opinion. No need to get nasty about things. IMO...Festival 78 is 100% correct. The assembly of a car clearly started with the body build at Fisher and that is where the production date is-right on the trim tag along with the option content in 1967.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Happy Easter!

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

[ QUOTE ]

...This car seems to be the only 'known' 07C 67 Z-28 in existence,

Possibly

...it is the latest and 'last' known 'assembly dated' 67 Z-28 known...

Nope. The car with the later VIN was built AFTER your car.

....it was apparently the 'last' known 67 Z body shell to leave the fisher body side of the Norwood plant...

Nope. See above.

Everyone thinks that the body tag was immediately attached to a body. It wasn't. It remained in queue, probably in a vinyl bag with the rest of the paperwork until Chevrolet instructed Fisher Body to start production of that specific dealer order. The 07B Z/28 was held up for some reason, started and built AFTER the 07C Z/28.

I have several pages of Canadian import sheets for 1967 Camaros in VIN and production date order. N249411 was built 7/11/67, N250546 was built 7/12/67, N252244 was built 7/14/67, N253319 was built 7/18/67 and on. The higher the VIN the later the date. The last 07B tag in our db [very close to the end] has a VIN 421 #s higher the first 07C tag. But some of you believe the 07C car was built first. Absolute nonsense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
70 COPO I do not know what your problem is and will have no further response to your asinine ramblings.

[/ QUOTE ]

William,

I was simply trying to find a basis for your comments which seem to be your mostly your opinion. No need to get nasty about things. IMO...Festival 78 is 100% correct. The assembly of a car clearly started with the body build at Fisher and that is where the production date is-right on the trim tag along with the option content in 1967.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Happy Easter!

[/ QUOTE ]

Please start another thread and we can discuss it. If you start it on the CRG forum, JohnZ will also respond.
But the summation is - the assembly process did not change from 67 to 69. They built cars the exact same way for years until they integrated the body shop into the assembly process under GMAD.

Nice car Max, good luck!

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

....it was apparently the 'last' known 67 Z body shell to leave the fisher body side of the Norwood plant...

Nope. See above.

Everyone thinks that the body tag was immediately attached to a body. It wasn't. It remained in queue, probably in a vinyl bag with the rest of the paperwork until Chevrolet instructed Fisher Body to start production of that specific dealer order.

But some of you believe the 07C car was built first. Absolute nonsense.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

William

I streamlined your last reply a bit so I could respond. You are incorrect. The tag was on the car, and paper was already generated even before the roof was attached. The last time I got into a discussion on this issue at two years ago with another guy on this very topic, the guy at that time had the same story that the "tag was delayed Body build up was delayed, tag not attached and that no Paper was generated on the body until the body reached the Chevrolet side". I concluded that discussion by producing the following Photograph which I took from another photo on my kitchen counter. The Glare from my kitchen light is clear on this photo that was stored on my hard drive.

Somehow this same photo was lifted and made it to the CRG technical article. As you can see the Tag was on the car even before the roof was on it and the car had already production Paper Work already.

Cars were built in order at Fisher. How in the world could GM track them any other way? This build order was the Body Number.

Cars were also built in sequence at Chevrolet Final assembly also bu VIN#. The scattering of the VIN's was a product of Downline parts availability and the staging lines where the cars were held prior to VIN assignment and computer lock for final assembly at chevrolet.

This explains why the VIN's appear to be out of sequence compared to the body build up.

Hey Kurt--If you guys at the CRG need a better copy of the photo I posted 2 years ago the last time this topic was raised (and then used by the GRG for its article) - let me know and I will send you a better one without glare from my kitchen light. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Phil

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

Hi Phil,

Did you provide that photo and a couple of others in the mid nineties to the USCC. I seem to remember that picture in their Camaro Enthustiast magazine.

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

Alright....so I am thoroughly confused again...ayayay

So...for the record..I will state what I now'think' is fact... heheh

- I have the only 67 Z-28 that any person has come forward with or that is publicly known that has an 07C cowl tag.

True or false??

-07C is after 07B as far as the GM dating sequence...

true or false??

-My cowl tag was made after any 07B cowl tag...

true or false?? (not sure on this one)

Thats about all I can state for sure at this point I believe..

So I have still a few questions...are you saying that the cowl tags got made..mine being made in the 07C week..but the cars did not even get started while the cowl tags were just all stored in a folder for a while??

and as far as the GM of Canada stuff...Was a Camaro built all in the same day...I realize that many were built each day, but were they started , painted, and completely built in one day??? I'd find that hard to believe..but I really don't know...so, what does the build date actually mean anyway??? Start date?? Finish date?? Ya know what I mean???

The latest pic sure seems to prove that the trim tag was on the car before it left the Fisher side?? But then again, it does not prove that the cars are in body sequence order on the line...soooo???

I think that it is apparent that for some reason one of the cars got held up...but, we will probably never know...and likely will probabaly never know which car was actually the first to be made or started...as the cars may not have been in body sequence order in fisher apparently?? and if so, they were not VIN'd in any type of body sequence order...so depending on where the glich was...would make the reason more clear...

So did I thoroughly confuse those that arent already?? I definitely confused myself some more.. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Back to " the only publicly known and latest 'cowl tag' dated 67 Z....period...100%%%

thanks again for all the interest...ayayaya https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

I have finally stopped laughing enough to respond to that 'picture'.

Look behind the Camaro - that's an A or B body. The photo was taken at the Van Nuys plant. The discussion concerns Norwood, where Camaros were built in VIN sequence.

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

-----Phil,,,Dont want to get into the middle of this "discussion" but would like to know if the tag was on the body before the roof because they had to know what roof to put on the car??? Vinyl roofs would have had the knobs for the trim clips maybe???.........Bill S

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

The studs were welded on later... besides the studs were on the quarters not the Roof for V-top... The studs were on the roof for the front and rear reveal moldings though... CRG assembly process has all the steps including the stud welding.

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

I have the only 67 Z-28 that any person has come forward with or that is publicly known that has an 07C cowl tag.

True

07C is after 07B as far as the GM dating sequence...

Of course. But get ‘GM’ out of your mind. The body tag existed only for Fisher Body. Chevrolet did not look at, use or refer to it during the assembly process.

My cowl tag was made after any 07B cowl tag...

Probably true but there was more than one machine making them.

So I have still a few questions...are you saying that the cowl tags got made..mine being made in the 07C week..but the cars did not even get started while the cowl tags were just all stored in a folder for a while??

Under normal operating conditions Fisher would convert Chevy build info into their system. At some point they released their production order paperwork including the body tag. You ALWAYS have a queue of released orders; 1, 2 days worth, whatever. All this stuff sat in a folder, bag, tray whatever until Chevrolet sent them the build schedule. Chevrolet, not Fisher, dictated the build schedule based on material availability, paint color, dealer/customer importance, geographical shipping location and probably other stuff. Under normal conditions body tag dates flow with VINs and build dates. July 1967 was not normal.

Remember this was the end of the model year and at the July 4th holiday when the plant was not at capacity. It is obvious from the CRG db info and the ’67 Z/28 that we had when the workers returned there was a backlog of released but not started orders at Fisher-how else could our 06E Z/28 have an engine dated July 6th? When Chevrolet started scheduling the remaining ’67 Camaro orders the backlog included tags processed 06E, 07A, 07B. That date meant nothing to Chevy; the cars were scheduled according to their criteria. As I have stated those dates are interspersed. The Z/28 I know of has a very rare option that likely held it up. As the last orders trickled in [07C] they were processed as usual but a backlog remained. Your car got released to production probably a few hours prior to the 07B Z/28 car and ended up with a lower VIN as a result.

and as far as the GM of Canada stuff...Was a Camaro built all in the same day...I realize that many were built each day, but were they started , painted, and completely built in one day??? I'd find that hard to believe..but I really don't know...so, what does the build date actually mean anyway??? Start date?? Finish date?? Ya know what I mean???

No. The body tag date is when Fisher released its sub-assembly order. Our 06E car was built by Chevrolet in early July.

The latest pic sure seems to prove that the trim tag was on the car before it left the Fisher side?? But then again, it does not prove that the cars are in body sequence order on the line...soooo???

The tag may have been the first part Fisher attached to anything. Correct-bodies not built in ‘Fisher’ sequence.

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have finally stopped laughing enough to respond to that 'picture'.

Look behind the Camaro - that's an A or B body. The photo was taken at the Van Nuys plant. The discussion concerns Norwood, where Camaros were built in VIN sequence.

[/ QUOTE ]


William,

Yes It is a LOS Photo. Are you saying that GM built cars using differing basic processes between Nor and LOS? If so Please share. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

William,

I have read with much intrest your missive in reply to the seller. And I have to say your reply above is much better (and more courteous) than you gave me earlier. In review however you make plenty of totally unsupported assumptions.

I could easily write a page in oppisition to each point you make - save a couple of areas where we both agree.

Here is an offer.. Convince us of your claims. How about sharing the "data" that you base this all on? I am quite sure it's likely % accuracy could then be calculated based on the sample of cars in the D base you are referring to vs the HUGE total production of Camaros in 1967.

How bout it? You are the one who was initially critical of this poor guy's car in this thread. Come on how about it? Share Please. I cannot wait.. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

Yes Norwood and Van Nuys were different. Van Nuys built other Chevy models; at that time Norwood only did Camaros.

I was not critical of anyones car. I pointed out that I know of a '67 Z/28 built later than his.

The CRG db is proprietary; not mine to share. But here is a summary:

Starting at the 1st 07A data point the CRG db has just over 200 cars, in VIN order just like they were built. At data point 18 there is an 06E Z/28 with a July 5th engine. There is no way that car was built anytime in June; according to the few Canadian shipping records I have the car was probably built July 10th. That means all the Fisher build paperwork and body tag for this car sat untouched for up to two weeks. Engines became available; the car was scheduled and built. Moving along another 21 07A builds there is another 06E car with a July 5th engine. That car was definitely built July 10th. After another nine 07A cars the first 07B tag appears followed by 5 more, then another 07A. It goes back and forth until data point 95 – the 67 Z/28 our business owned. 06E tag, July 6th engine, built on or about July 12th. From that point on it is all 07B until data point 187/188, the first 07C tags. A few more 07C tags, more 07Bs. The last data point, very close to the end of production is an 07B tag.

There is no possible way these cars were built in “body tag” order. If they were 06E tags could not have July engines. They were built as Chevrolet scheduled them and received VINs in sequence as all the known shipping records show. Once again Chevrolet did not care one bit about the date on the tag. By July ’67 both plants were changing over to 1968 model production [June 67 builds are known] so there were plenty of scheduling headaches.

Good news!! My last post on this thread.

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

Very interesting stuff.

Re: THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28
 

I agree, neat information.
Mark Sheppard