Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

[ QUOTE ]
I inquired about the Black COPO Chevelle when it was for sale on this site. Ed was very up front that the car was missing the hidden VINs and a donor was used.

[/ QUOTE ]
I DON'T GET IT? Two people post that EdC, warned them of a rebody., and yet previous posts tell a different story that EdC was involved with FRAUD. Which is it, is EdC a honest reputable man that accidently certified a few cars by mistake or did he outright represent cars that he knew were faked?

Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

Make that three, a friend of mine inquired about that car and was given a honest assesment as well. Ed doesnt get the benefit of the doubt like alot of others. If something is currently in litigation, how can you claim now to know who did what,or who was told what ? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

My earlier post #322811 only refers to the black COPO Chevelle. Several months ago, while sitting in the front seat of my truck, Ed personally told me the guy he recently sold the Chevelle to had asked for a full refund soon after receiving the car because he claimed to be unaware of the rebody/donor situation when he bought the car from Ed. Ed went on to tell me that he intended to refund the buyer the purchase money, even though he claimed to have previously told the buyer the Chevelle was a rebody. Ed told me he didn't want any further hassle or legal problems regarding the he-said, she-said situation the deal had become and therefore decided to refund the money and take the car back. Ed offered the Chevelle for $xxxxx to me at that time and was emphatic about describing the Chevelle to me as being a rebody.

Once again...I'm only referring to the black COPO Chevelle. I have no comment on the Deuce Nova, Yenko Nova or the Yenko Camaro that were mentioned earlier in this thread. Nor do I have any knowledge of any litigation regarding any of the cars discussed in this thread.

SS

Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

Thanks SS for your comments regarding my black COPO Chevelle. For the record, this Chevelle was restored using the car's original A pillars and dash, along with other original parts. Call it a "rear-clip" or a rebody, I don't much care. There are plenty of old race cars that have gone through the same treatment. I have pictures of the complete restoration I will bring to Chevy-Vette Fest in April. This car was never misrepresented by me to anyone. It is what it is. And I intend to enjoy it.

Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

Sad.

Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

My recommendation for anyone selling a rebody, clone, tribute and or fake, when you sell it put that information in writing. Have the buyer sign it and hold on to it. These car tend to grow in documentation and pedigree as they are sold and resold.

To the crooks, beware because the level of knowledgeable enthusiast is growing and the advent of the internet and sharing information makes it almost impossible to hide.

As has been stated previously, this site has uncovered many questionable/fake cars. This is a critical element if we are to keep this hobby honest and credible. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif

Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

Amen Steve! Could not have said it any better. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

Steve is right on, that way when a car like these come to light you don't have to 'spin' the story.

Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks SS for your comments regarding my black COPO Chevelle. For the record, this Chevelle was restored using the car's original A pillars and dash, along with other original parts. Call it a "rear-clip" or a rebody, I don't much care. There are plenty of old race cars that have gone through the same treatment. I have pictures of the complete restoration I will bring to Chevy-Vette Fest in April. This car was never misrepresented by me to anyone. It is what it is. And I intend to enjoy it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It sure is admirable of someone to come on here and speak the truth.

What is the story with this?
https://www.yenko.net/attachments/322654-IMG_5467.JPG

Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

Read the prior posts, it's hard to 'spin' this one.

Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif Hey Guys, I just wanted to Thank you guys for all the good info and "insight" on my original question about the possibility of this car being a original COPO camaro. Today, (thursday 5/29/08) Jerry Macneish inspected and Confirmed that we have a "real deal" Copo here! I want to thank Mark B. for spending time on the phone with me and giving me enough good info for us to actually go and bring the car home. This car is a two owner car, that has been kept inside most of its life. ( granted we will need some parts to get it back to original). I guess this go to say "they are still out there". Its kinda funny how every time you hear a story, starting out with .......yea, my buddy knows where a real ....(blank) (car) is........you say to yourself .....yea right.

This is how we found out about this car... with just that kind of lead. THANKS AGAIN GUYS!!!!!! Mike H.

Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

PS. we will need to find a BE rear and a "period correct" 512 block
I know these are not going to be cheap, but any leads in locating these two "key" parts would be a great help. Mike

Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

Just courious how was it confirmed to be a COPO without the org engine or rearend?

Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

Hi , Dont get me wrong, I may have used the word "confirmed" loosely.
I dont have a single thing (yet) to confirm it to be a 100% copo car, I can only say, that Jerry, said the car was pretty much all factory in having the early series engine mounts, (coded), the 3/8 inch fuel line that has never been touched, correct original radiator ,the cowl hole/harness, riginal leaf springs, original transmission, original breather (flat bottom), and numerious other copo specific items,. I have also contacted the original owner who bought the car new, again, guys, im not the expert, and I know how discussions boards go ...... I dont want to start a big arguement here, just wanted to say thanks to all who has given us the balls to actually buy the car.

(again, as I type this , Jerry has NOT given me anything to "prove its a copo" ...he just left here at 5pm today, However, you must admit, the guy does know his stuff, and everything he saw today indicated it was a copo.

Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

If I were you I would be spending what ever it took to find the OE drive train and paperwork for this car before investing in a restoration. Nobody can "certify" your car as a COPO. The same Garnet red COPO has been on ebay several times in the past year-no paperwork, no OE drivetrain, no sale. Way too easy to clone a COPO.

Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

hey what is the date on the picture with the cowl hood on the car? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif

Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

Great thread.

Marlin it takes a lot of courage to come out with the truth about a car rebodied by a well known and well respected guy knowing you are going to get severely bashed or burned at the stake as you say. Well done that kind of integrity isn't found in abundance today.

I am trying to learn more about documenting Camaro's the only two I own have paperwork, living original owners and were well known. So if I understand this a COPO will have its VIN on the trim plate and behind the heater box and on the cowl? Plus on the block? But the VIN contains nothing that indicates what the car is in regard to the factory engine? Thus if all the VINS match then you are comparing them to paperwork which may or may not be authentic??

My rookie understanding is that the 512 block has a VIN on the rear pad in front of the oil filter in a rough area that can't be restamped so if that is true and that VIN matches the other VINS what does that mean? I was also told the other chevy big blocks the non Hi- Po blocks have the rear stamp on a machined pad near the oil filter and can be restamped? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

No, the VIN stamping along the oil filter flange is a rough cast area, not machined. But you can find a block with no stamping and add one so I would say they can definitely be restamped in that manner. It's not quite the same thing as decking the block and restamping it up front, but it's a way to get a #'s matching motor when the original was long gone. The partial VIN is up on the cowl and behind the heater blower. That can prove the VIN tag matches the body but without paperwork and original drivetrain it doesn't prove too much more.

Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

Its rough cast near the oil filter on all Chevy big blocks or just the 512 and 396/375 blocks? I didn't know there were 512 blocks without stampings so they could later be restamped? You would have thought Chevy would have stamped something to denote it was a warranty or parts block? So then to create a bogus COPO you find a unstamped block and restamp the rough area and machine the pad on the front and then restamp that and get some bogus paper work and your in business? Geez that sucks. So absent prior owners and bulletproof docs how do you make sure its a real COPO or not? 3/8 inch fuel lines and specfic motor mount part numbers seems flimsy?

I would think the Yenkos would be easier since the VINs are known and you can check the two VINs on the body for welding???

Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

I would like to add that Ed Cunneen did this hobby a great service and for a lot of years researching, cataloging and documenting the rarest of the rare in which there are a lot of wannabe owners out there and not enough cars to go around. I think the bashing that goes on in this site is counter productive and bad for this site. I hope Ed enjoys his COPO Chevelle and I don't blame him for getting out from under the microscope. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

[ QUOTE ]
Its rough cast near the oil filter on all Chevy big blocks or just the 512 and 396/375 blocks? I didn't know there were 512 blocks without stampings so they could later be restamped? You would have thought Chevy would have stamped something to denote it was a warranty or parts block? So then to create a bogus COPO you find a unstamped block and restamp the rough area and machine the pad on the front and then restamp that and get some bogus paper work and your in business? Geez that sucks. So absent prior owners and bulletproof docs how do you make sure its a real COPO or not? 3/8 inch fuel lines and specfic motor mount part numbers seems flimsy?

I would think the Yenkos would be easier since the VINs are known and you can check the two VINs on the body for welding???

[/ QUOTE ]

Does the known Vin list include the cars that had motor transplants....?

Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hi , Dont get me wrong, I may have used the word "confirmed" loosely.
I dont have a single thing (yet) to confirm it to be a 100% copo car, I can only say, that Jerry, said the car was pretty much all factory in having the early series engine mounts, (coded), the 3/8 inch fuel line that has never been touched, correct original radiator ,the cowl hole/harness, riginal leaf springs, original transmission, original breather (flat bottom), and numerious other copo specific items,. I have also contacted the original owner who bought the car new, again, guys, im not the expert, and I know how discussions boards go ...... I dont want to start a big arguement here, just wanted to say thanks to all who has given us the balls to actually buy the car.

(again, as I type this , Jerry has NOT given me anything to "prove its a copo" ...he just left here at 5pm today, However, you must admit, the guy does know his stuff, and everything he saw today indicated it was a copo.

[/ QUOTE ]
Interesting situation, the car may be a COPO but without documentation or the original block ..., guess you can have the original owner sign an affidavit stating it is a COPO and the hole in the firewall was always there from birth.

Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

A few comments;

First and foremost, anyone can be a victim of Fraud, no matter how much you know about a particular car, anyone!

The rough casting by the oil filter on any Big Block can be accurately reproduced. (same as the rough casting on the back of a 428CJ etc) This is not new! It has been done for more than two decades, on many cars to include COPOs and Yenkos.

That particular VIN/location is very difficult to "Judge" or "determine" while it is in the car. Not impossible, just difficult.

Properly done frauds/fakes/rebodies "can" be virtually undetectable, in fully restored states.

Original, untouched and unrestored cars are much more difficult to fake. Possible, but much more difficult.

I certainly am not infallible and have made my fair share of mistakes. I have debated COPO/Yenko issues with every "ëxpert" mentioned in this thread and ALL have made mistakes.

In fact: I can't think of any one particular expert who I have dealt with over the past decades, whether is has involved a Ferrari, Shelby, Pontiac, Shelby, COPO/Yenko, etc., who has never made a mistake.

Since this thread is in regards to COPO Camaros, I'll stick to that issue.

Paperwork such as a buildsheet, is very rare in a 1969 Camaro, built at the Norwood Plant. I can confidently state that more than 90% of all Norwood Camaros do not have a build sheet with them today!

Companies have been reproducing protecto-plates using Vintage Blank books, vintage tape, vintage Blanks and stamped with Vintage Machines. You cannot tell the difference on an "accurate" reproduction.

Note: There are companies which will accurately reproduce VIN tags for GM, Ford and Chrysler Cars.

It is very difficult to prove anything 100%. What most Pro's do is try to Prove beyond a reasonable doubt to themselves and elliminate any situation wherein the car can't be something.

There are approx 100 specific item to look for Just on a COPO Camaro.

To use a particular car as an example and to infer that because it doesn't have factory paperwork or an original drivetrain that all such cars are not worth much, just doesn't hold water with me. Maybe it might have something to do with the quality of the resto/price etc?

I have bought sold, inspected and certified more than a few COPO Camaros and can say that most do not have all their original drive trains.

Sounds like you have indeed found an original COPO Camaro and if Jerry MacNeish provides a certificate as such, along with the other info you have uncovered and that which may still be uncovered, that you indeed have a Rare car with Collector/enthusiasts value.

ps I have seen several knowledgeable people look at the same parts, numbers and stampings and come up with varying opinions.

Congrats on locating and identifying another potentail piece of the COPO Camaro puzzle https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

This is the first time I have heard the stamps in the rough casting can be reproduced? Also the first time I have heard the Chevy POP repops were done with vintage plates and machine? I have always known the Chevy guys had the bogus car creation process down to a science but I didn't know how sophisticated they were?

Wow, if everything Steve said is accurate buying a Chevy is nothing more than an expensive roll of the dice? And the odds are better on the crap table on the come out roll.

Steve thanks for your refreshing candor. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif

Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

Take lots of good pictures of all of the things Jerry says are "COPO-esque" while the car is in its unrestored shape. As Stefano points out, once restored, all of these clues will be questioned. Its not paperwork, but if you show good evidence of how you found it and why you think its real, that may help convince people down the road.

I also agree with Stefano that it certainly isn't an either/or thing when it comes to bulletproof history. Many collectibles, cars included, have a value set by whether they're definately/probably/maybe/not what you think they are. I know I've paid more for something that was "probably" a Z/28 than I would have for something that definately was not. (I was rewarded with a build sheet on the tank for my guess.)

Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

Great post Stephano! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

[ QUOTE ]
Great post Stephano! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing like an unbiased opinion-from a dealer.

Gimme a break...

Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks SS for your comments regarding my black COPO Chevelle. For the record, this Chevelle was restored using the car's original A pillars and dash, along with other original parts. Call it a "rear-clip" or a rebody, I don't much care. There are plenty of old race cars that have gone through the same treatment. I have pictures of the complete restoration I will bring to Chevy-Vette Fest in April. This car was never misrepresented by me to anyone. It is what it is. And I intend to enjoy it.

[/ QUOTE ]

At what point did the black COPO become a re-body? What other parts of the car should have stayed intact to maintain the car's integrity? What's the difference if the floor, roof, rockers (all immediately adjacent to the dash assembly) are all replaced individually with GM or reproduction parts... vs the same parts being replaced intact from another car the way Ed states? Lastly, how much did it have hurt the value of the car?

Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Great post Stephano! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing like an unbiased opinion-from a dealer.

Gimme a break...

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure he has a preconcieved opinion just like a CRG member would have theirs. The point is that it is possible for someone to correctly duplicate/fake a car that could get by the experts. Just ask Ed Cuneen...

Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

Point is that I can't/don't have a clue because I sell these types of cars for a living?? That point might have some validity/logic?

Another point is that everything and anything can be faked up on a car.

Shelby's/Fords, Mopars, Pontiacs are just as susceptible to this type of Fraud as Chevy's.

Anyone ever hear of a Shelby having it's tags/vins removed and screwed/riveted/welded to another Body which had properly date coded sheet metal and a stack of paperwork and owner history? I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the ones I know of.

Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

[ QUOTE ]
... The point is that it is possible for someone to correctly duplicate/fake a car that could get by the experts. Just ask Ed Cuneen...

[/ QUOTE ]

Which hat is Ed wearing in this example?.
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif
~ Pete

Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
... The point is that it is possible for someone to correctly duplicate/fake a car that could get by the experts. Just ask Ed Cuneen...

[/ QUOTE ]

Which hat is Ed wearing in this example?.
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif
~ Pete

[/ QUOTE ]

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

[ QUOTE ]
Point is that I can't/don't have a clue because I sell these types of cars for a living?? That point might have some validity/logic?

Another point is that everything and anything can be faked up on a car.

Shelby's/Fords, Mopars, Pontiacs are just as susceptible to this type of Fraud as Chevy's.

Anyone ever hear of a Shelby having it's tags/vins removed and screwed/riveted/welded to another Body which had properly date coded sheet metal and a stack of paperwork and owner history? I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the ones I know of.

[/ QUOTE ]


I think that Stefano knows his stuff pretty well...he's been into these cars since...well...forever https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/headbang.gif

And...I might add that he...along with quite a few others here on this site are willing to help...and teach us not so savvy people what to watch out for! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pic
 

Any Musclecar dealer that is willing to be part of fraud/ethics/moral discussions is okay in my books. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif